Mary the mother of my Lord (Heresy?)

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Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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Re: Behold, your mother!

Ok, that is your interpretation and I will not discarded. As for me I will call Her mother because she was Jesus mother. I will love Her because she is a model disciple of the Lord. She was there from beginning to end, She was there the first time He got "lost" [I hope the last one too] and on His first miracle. A loyal servant of the Lord.

On a liter note, here is something that we talk amongst catholics at times:

Can you imagine how St Joseph felt when he realized they did not have Jesus? Remember St. Joseph was placed in charge of taking good care for God's Son, St Joseph was the head of the house.
Sorry if this is duplicating an earlier post, but it strikes me as curious why after the Gospel accounts the bible is silent on Mary (except for one passing mention in Acts) whereas some faiths can't stop mentioning her. John doesn't and he was the one to care for her, Paul doesn't, Peter (oh my, the alleged first Pope) doesn't nor James or Jude,,,silence. This has always struck me curious.
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
The Bishop of Rome (Pope) is the successor to St. Peter. The Apostles (St. Peter) designated successors. Hence the apostolic succession from Peter(32-67) to Linus (67-76) to Anacletus (76-88) to Clement I (88-97), and so on. Here is a list of them all, from Peter to Benedict XVI today -> LIST OF POPES - LINK

And our Lord gave the office of Vicar of Christ's true Church first to Peter (the keys to heaven), which is naturally passed on to each successor all the way to today with Pope Benedict XVI.

Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter (rock), and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Mat 16:16-19
(And for those who will predictably give the "Petros vs Petra argument, the language that Christ spoke was not Greek, but rather Aramaic. The word Christ used was Cephas, not petros or petra. Greek uses gender specific nouns, which English does not. So this makes it difficult for most English speaking Christians to understand. When the Greek NT was written, the author used Petros because it was a male version of "rock". Later in Acts we see Peter take his place among the Apostles as their leader, and he leads them as if he were their leader (which he was).
One more thing here, this idea that petros means a stone or a little rock is simply not true. Matthew was well aware of what 'stone' was in the Greek. It was the word lithos which, as you will notice by the ending is masculine. But Matthew does not use lithos even though he uses it ten other places in his gospel. He uses petra/ petros. As for 'little rock', if you want to find little rock then forget the Bible; you have to go to Arkansas.)

Peter was the first "Pope", followed by his designated successors. Mind you that the earliest recorded use of the title "pope" as we know it today in English dates to the mid-10th century, when it was used in reference to Pope Vitalin in an Old English translation of Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People. So no, it is not a title they (as you say) "gave to them selfs".
The title was from the early 3rd century a general term used to refer to all bishops. From the 6th century the title began to be used particularly of the Bishop of Rome, and in the late 11th century Pope Gregory VII issued a declaration that has been widely interpreted as stating this by then established Western convention.


By definition a vicar is a representative, or deputy; anyone acting "in the person of" or agent for a superior. So yes, Peter and his successors are indeed vicar's of Christ, by Christ's own institution of the office. (See Matthew 16:16-19 posted a few lines above.)

Communion is plainly taught by our Lord, and we are firmly instructed by Him to follow his instructions on this matter. Although Protestants conveniently skip over these absolutely essential teachings of our Lord unfortunately, or erroneously say that Christ was simply speaking in parable in John 6, or erroneously say that Christ is not truly present in what appears as bread and wine at the Last Supper when Christ took bread and said, “Take, eat; this IS my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; for this IS my blood." And tells us "DO THIS in remembrance of me."
In John 6 where our Lord tells us, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed."

Paul also instructs us about receiving communion properly when he see's that there are abuses by those doing it improperly in the early Church.

"For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This IS my body which is for you. DO THIS in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup IS the new covenant in my blood. DO THIS, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes."

And then Paul speaks about the abuse of consuming the body and blood of Christ while in a state of mortal sin (thereby profaning the body and blood of the Lord)...

Abuses at the Lord's Supper-
"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ (i.e. understanding that it is truly the body and blood of Christ) eat and drink judgment on themselves."
1 Cor 11:23-29

Yes, when I see so many Christians today ignoring Christ in what he clearly instructed us to do.

You are being very vague. What do you mean, specifically?

Is Scripture truly the sole rule of faith for Christians? Not according to the Bible. While we must guard against merely human tradition, the Bible contains numerous references to the necessity of clinging to apostolic tradition. Thus Paul tells the Corinthians, "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2), and he commands the Thessalonians, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15). He even goes so far as to order, "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us" (2 Thess. 3:6).
To make sure that the apostolic tradition would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, "What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first four generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, the generation Timothy will teach, and the generation they in turn will teach.
The early Church Fathers, who were links in that chain of succession, recognized the necessity of the traditions that had been handed down from the apostles and guarded them scrupulously.
As far as your other misconception about the days in which Roman Catholics celebrate Christmas and Easter, well, Catholics celebrate Christmas and Easter the same days as everyone else, so I am not sure what you are

trying to get at there.


Thats very protestent of you ha

Kings 20.4 and the king of isreal answered as you say my lord.
Ps hello to the imaginary person whos first post was on this thread ha


This is what i was getting åt i was asking geo Why so many difference between rc and orthodox.

Why Do orthodox Do comunion different to rc Why does orthodox have different views on purgatory to rc. Why are priests allowed to marry on One side and not the other. Why Can orthodox and rc not agree on what day easter or christmas fälls on.
And because some of your rc bishops are mentioned in the bible does not mean They are predesesers of st
Peter.
More tea vicar ?.

And i am not a protestant i am a prodestant
 
Jan 17, 2013
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quickfire. I recommend you read about the East/West Schism, or "Great Schism" of 1054.

quickfire said:
Why Do orthodox Do comunion different to rc
Byzantines in the East used leavened bread in their Divine Liturgy to symbolize the Risen Christ, and Latins in the West used unleavened bread as was used by Jesus at the Last Supper. Both were valid, but each had its own perspective.
Although both sides accept the validity of each one’s orders and sacraments, no inter-Communion exists between the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox. That means that normally speaking, Catholics aren’t allowed to receive Holy Communion in Orthodox Churches, and conversely, Orthodox shouldn’t receive Holy Communion in Roman/Latin Catholic Churches.

quickfire said:
Why does orthodox have different views on purgatory to rc.
East and West essentially hold the same beliefs about Purgatory. Things come down essentially to language. The East uses Greek to describe their theology and there is no Greek word for purgatory as there is in Latin (purgatorium) which is used in the West. Instead of calling this transitional state from life to death "purgatory, the East calls it "Final Theosis".
The two essential points concerning purgatory, and both sides agree with them, are:
1) There is a place of transition/transformation for those en-route to Heaven, and 2) prayer is efficacious for the dead who are in this state.
The Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches agree with the Latin Church fully on both of these points.

The word "purgatory" means to 'purge'. Whether it is called Purgatory or Final Theosis it is generally thought of as a joyful experience since being in this state then one knows that their salvation is assured. They are just being finally purified or 'purged' of any impurity (the process of purifying gold can be used to illustrate) before spending an eternity with God, since nothing impure can be in the presence of God.

quickfire said:
Why are priests allowed to marry on One side and not the other.
Paul tells us...
It is good for a man not to marry…An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs —how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— and his interests are divided.”
1 Cor 7:1

In the Roman Catholic Church the priests are married to Christ and His Church. They cannot be occupied with also serving a wife and children, otherwise as Paul explains "his interests are divided".

Also, for instance, when a Jewish Levitcal Priest was chosen to go into the Holy of Holies,as Zecharia father of John the Baptist was, they had to remain celibate for a month. Celibacy was a discipline for entering into the presence of God just one time on one day. But Catholic priests are in the Presence of Christ in the Eucharist every day. Therefore, perpetual celibacy is fitting.

In Eastern Orthodox on the other hand then If you are already a priest then you cannot marry. However, if one is married (first marriage only), he can still become a priest.
Eastern Orthodox Priests are allowed to marry prior to ordination to one woman only. If the wife dies, the priest is unable to marry again or risk losing his office of Priesthood.


God bless :)
 
Nov 22, 2012
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Thats very protestent of you ha

Kings 20.4 and the king of isreal answered as you say my lord.
Ps hello to the imaginary person whos first post was on this thread ha


This is what i was getting åt i was asking geo Why so many difference between rc and orthodox.

Why Do orthodox Do comunion different to rc Why does orthodox have different views on purgatory to rc. Why are priests allowed to marry on One side and not the other. Why Can orthodox and rc not agree on what day easter or christmas fälls on.
And because some of your rc bishops are mentioned in the bible does not mean They are predesesers of st
Peter.
More tea vicar ?.

And i am not a protestant i am a prodestant

Both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics recognize at least seven Sacraments or Mysteries: The Eucharist, Baptism, Chrismation, Ordination, Penance, Marriage and Holy Oil for the sick (which the Latins have traditionally called "Extreme Unction" and reserved for the dying).

Concerning the Sacraments in general, the Orthodox teach that their material elements (bread, wine, water, chrism, etc.) become grace-filled by the calling of the Holy Spirit (epiklesis). Roman Catholicism believes that the Sacraments are effective on account of the priest who acts "in the person of Christ."

At the same time, the Latins interpret the Sacraments in a legal and philosophical way. Hence, in the Eucharist, using the right material things (bread and wine) and pronouncing the correct formula, changes their substance (transubstantiation) into the Body and Blood of Christ. The visible elements or this and all Sacraments are merely "signs" of the presence of God.

The Orthodox call the Eucharist "the mystical Supper." What the priest and the faithful consume is mysteriously the Body and Blood of Christ. We receive Him under the forms of bread and wine, because it would be wholly repugnant to eat "real" human flesh and drink "real" human blood.

According to Roman Catholic teachings about the Sacraments (mystagogy), a person becomes a member of the Church through Baptism. "Original sin" is washed away. Orthodoxy teaches the same, but the idea of an "original sin" or "inherited guilt" (from Adam) has no part in her thinking.

Roman Catholics speak of "Confirmation" and the Orthodox of "Chrismation." "Confirmation" is separated from the Baptism and is performed by the bishop and not the priest; but "Chrismation" is performed with Baptism by a priest who has received "chrism" from the bishop. The Sacrament of "Confirmation" and "Chrismation" both mean the giving of the Holy Spirit. The Latins delay "confirming" (with "first communion") baptized infants not more than seven years, that is, until the time they have some appreciation of the gift of God.

The Orthodox Church links Baptism, Chrismation and Holy Communion, first the threefold immersion into sanctified water, the "new Christian" rising from the water into the fellowship of the Holy Spirit which leads to union with God. Such is the purpose of membership in the Church.

Purgatory Purgatory is a condition of the departed before the final judgment. According to Roman Catholic theology, those souls destined for heaven (with a few exceptions) must endure a state of purgation, or purification. They must be cleansed of the sins committed on earth. The rest go to hell for eternal punishment.
Moreover, from a "treasury" of merits or extra grace accumulated by the virtue of Christ, the Virgin Mary and the saints, "indulgences" may be granted. The grace is applied to those in purgatory in order to shorten their time there.
Orthodoxy teaches that, after the soul leaves the body, it journeys to the abode of the dead (Hades). There are exceptions, such as the Theotokos, who was borne by the angels directly into heaven. As for the rest, we must remain in this condition of waiting. Because some have a prevision of the glory to come and others foretaste their suffering, the state of waiting is called "Particular Judgment."
When Christ returns, the soul rejoins its risen body to be judged by Him. The "good and faithful servant" will inherit eternal life, the unfaithful with the unbeliever will spend eternity in hell. Their sins and their unbelief will torture them as fire.





Priesthood celibat


[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] ON PRIESTLY CELIBACY AND THE PRESENT CRISIS IN ROMAN CATHOLICISM:[/FONT]
[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]OBSERVATIONS OF A MARRIED PRIEST OF THE ORTHODOX CHURCH.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So the American Roman Catholic Cardinals gather in Rome with the Pope. Roman Catholicism in America is threatened with bankruptcy as more and more file lawsuits for paedophilia.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Arial, helvetica, san-serif]Yet it all sounded such a good idea - 'a celibate priesthood can devote itself to God and His people much better than a married priesthood'. As a married priest with six children, I can assure you that I keep very busy. Yes, such a good intention, this celibacy idea. But, as they say, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Arial, helvetica, san-serif]The Orthodox Church does not deny a celibate priesthood, that is why priest-monks exist. Only in the Orthodox Church, which has faithfully guarded the Christian traditions of the First Millennium, celibacy is voluntary and never imposed. I just wonder what proportion of Catholic priests, offered the choice, would marry. An awful lot did after the Reformation in Protestant countries, almost overnight, it would seem. Or perhaps they were already 'married' before the Reformation, only unofficially...[/FONT]
[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Arial, helvetica, san-serif]A married priesthood was maintained in the Orthodox Church, East and West, on the insistence of a fouth-century Egyptian monk, St Paphnutius the Confessor (feast: 11 September), Bishop of Thais. He had suffered the gouging out of his right eye and other torments in the persecution of Maximinian in 311. A strict virgin himself, at the First Oecumenical Council in 325, he rose up against a proposal in favour of a celibate priesthood and supported the holiness of married life. He foresaw the difficulties and temptations compulsory celibacy would bring. He urged the Church to maintain Her traditional condition that, once ordained, clergy could not enter into marriage. On the other hand, he urged that the Church continue to ordain already married men. The support of marriage by a monk should not surprise - monastics know only too well the weaknesses of human nature.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Arial, helvetica, san-serif]Since the official and unilateral introduction of compulsory celibacy by Roman Catholicism some 900 years ago in the 1070's, contrary to the decisons of the First Oecumenical Council of 325, what, honestly, have the results been?[/FONT]
[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Arial, helvetica, san-serif]1 The alienation of women. Most married priests understand family problems far better than celibate priests. And priests' wives often provide invaluable help in parish life. Where priests are not married, there are no wives to give support. And the inevitable consequence is that some women ask to be ordained priestesses.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Arial, helvetica, san-serif]2 A great many priests throughout the Western Middle Ages continued to
be 'married'. In the south of Italy and villages in Portugal and Spain even
today this continues to be the case. (Enter any bar in Braga and you will see). Their bishops turn a blind eye, As for the people, they welcome it - would you let your daughter into a confessional alone with a hot-blooded young Mediterranean priest? Similarly, in Africa and South America today, virtually all the Catholic priests are 'married'.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Arial, helvetica, san-serif]3 In Northern Europe, for example in France and Austria, statistics show that at least 20 per cent of Roman Catholic priests have 'wives', i.e. mistresses or 'housekeepers' and children.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Arial, helvetica, san-serif]4 In Germany many Roman Catholic priests tend to overeat to compensate, in Ireland many drink. These are not stereotypes but realities I have seen time and time again in travelling around Europe.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Arial, helvetica, san-serif]5 In the USA, the seat of the current crisis, it has been estimated that some 50 per cent of Catholic priests are practising homosexuals. No doubt elsewhere the figures are also high.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Arial, helvetica, san-serif]6 Worse still the cases of paedophilia. The recent case of the Archbishop of
Vienna rocked Roman Catholicism in Austria. Now there is a case in Poland. Recently the Catholic Archbishop of Wales. Almost every week in Ireland and recently a suicide. Now in the USA, there are said to be over 2,000 cases in the pipeline and court cases could cost Roman Catholicism one billion dollars, though money can never make up for these foul crimes against children. According to the words of Our Saviour: 'it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea (Luke 18, 6).
[/FONT]
[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Arial, helvetica, san-serif]7 As a result of compulsory celibacy, there is a chronic lack of Catholic
priests worldwide, especially in France, a country that I know well. the
average age of priests there is over 60. Some 7,000 Roman Catholic priests have married in recent years officially and can therefore no longer serve as priests. In the countryside it is not uncommon to find a seventy-year-old priest serving twenty-four parishes. Every Sunday, six masses in six villages - in that way twenty-four villages can have a mass once a month. Alternatively, married laypeople are given a packet of eucharistic wafers and told to distribute them to those who wish to take communion!
[/FONT]
[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Arial, helvetica, san-serif]8. And finally the hypocrisy of it all. Kept hidden in the shadows are all the Catholic priests of the Eastern rite, married, but not allowed outside the Middle East or Eastern Europe. Similarly Anglican convert clergy are allowed to be married, but are kept hidden away as hospital chaplains and second-class citizens.[/FONT]
[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Arial, helvetica, san-serif]O, Cardinals of America, may you speak with wisdom in Rome, for the errors of nine hundred years are coming home to haunt you.[/FONT]

On Priestly Celibacy






Easter and Christmas

Bouth R Catholic and Orthodox Christmas is at th december,but many Orthodox churches didnt accepted Gregorian calendar.So me celebrate at 7th january which is actually 25th december by Julian calendar.

For Easterthere r 2 different formulas for calculating the date of Easter.THat is why we have different dates,but sometimes they can be the same or very far as it is this year.Orthodox Easter is at 5th may.

What is interesting for Easter,that is Holy Fire at Church of Christ Grave at Jerusalem.If u ever heard for that,u must know that it appears only one's per year,but only at Orthodox Easter and Holy Fire will apear only when Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem do prayers on Christ Grave.
Pilgrims claim the Holy Fire does not burn their hair, faces, clothes or anything else during the first 33 minutes of its appearance.Holy Light (Holy Fire) in Jerusalem: Proofs & Testimonies - YouTube ; Blagodatni Oganj 2008 - Holy Fire Jerusalem - YouTube

Vicar of Christ

An Orthodox Response to the Recent Roman Catholic Declaration on the Nature of the Church | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese
 
Nov 22, 2012
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Primacy and the "Infallibility" of the Roman Pope

Orthodoxy is faith "in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church". Outside of the Church, there is no salvation, just as there was no salvation outside of Noah’s ark in the days of the flood. Orthodoxy is firm faith in the fact that in the mysteries of the Church lies God’s saving grace.
The Orthodox Church, as "the pillar and ground of the truth" (I Timothy 3:15), as a living organism, against which even "the gates of hell shall not prevail" Matthew 16:18), and which has Christ Himself as its Head, abiding with it "always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20, NKJV)
Such a Church as a whole cannot err; for the whole Church to err would be tantamount to her spiritual death, but, by virtue of the Saviour’s promise, she cannot die. But if the Orthodox Church as a whole cannot err, her individual members, individual gatherings and groups and even large parts of her can fall into error. And since the opinion of the whole Church is made manifest at Ecumenical Councils, the Ecumenical Councils are the infallible custodians and interpreters of Divine Revelation - not because the members of the councils are individually infallible, but because the decisions of the councils are the voice of the whole Church, which is directed by the grace of the Holy Spirit (the decisions of the councils always begin with the words: "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" [see Acts 15:28]).
This view of the infallibility of the universal Church, which comes from Christ and His apostles, was common in Christianity during the course of the first centuries and remained unchanged in the Orthodox Church. But in the West, side by side with other deviations, this view of the infallibility of the Church also under-went distortion. The Roman bishop was always considered one of the members of the council, and he submitted to its decisions. But, in the course of time, the pope of Rome began to attribute the privilege of ecclesiastical infallibility to himself alone and, after long efforts, finally secured the recognition of his absurd pretension at the Vatican Council of 1870.
Besides the invisible Head, Jesus Christ, Catholics recognize yet a visible head, the Roman bishop, the pope, and they consider him, and not the universal Church, infallible.
The teaching on the supremacy of the pope arose in the ninth century and is the main dogma of the Roman confession and its main difference with Orthodoxy. Catholics assert that Christ made one of His disciples, namely the Apostle Peter, His vicar on earth, the prince of the apostles, the head of the visible Church with plenipotentiary authority over the apostles and over the whole Church, and that only through him did all the remaining apostles receive their grace-filled rights. Catholics also assert that the Roman pope became the successor of the Apostle Peter and received all rights and privileges from him as well. He, the pope, is the head of the whole Church, the vicar of Christ, the sole bearer for the whole visible Church of all her grace-filled rights; his voice in matters of faith, speaking ex cathedra - "from the chair", that is, officially - is infallible and obligatory for each member of the Church individually and for all together.
In this dogma of the Roman Catholic Church, three elements stand out: 1) the teaching on the supremacy of the Apostle Peter, 2) on the supremacy of the pope and 3) on his infallibility.
Today we shall touch on the first two parts of the teaching on the papacy. Catholics base the teaching on the supremacy of the Apostle Peter on two passages of Sacred Scripture. The first pertains to the sixteenth chapter of the Gospel according to Matthew (verses 13-19):
"When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
In the Saviour’s words quoted above, nothing is said about the supremacy of the Apostle Peter or in general about his relation-ship to the other apostles. Here, Christ is speaking about the founding of the Church. But the Church is founded not on Peter alone. In the Epistle to the Ephesians (2:20), the Apostle Paul, addressing the Christians, says: "[Ye] are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone"; while in the First Epistle to the Corinthians (3:10-11), the Apostle Paul, speaking about the creation of Christ’s Church, expresses it thus: "According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master-builder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no may lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." In the Apocalypse, where the Church is compared to a city, it says: "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb" (Revelation 21:14).
But let us return to the main passage of the Gospel according to Matthew, by which Catholics attempt to prove the supremacy of the Apostle Peter over the other apostles and, through him, of the pope of Rome over the whole Church. In this Gospel excerpt, the context clearly shows that the Apostle Peter’s confession of Christ as the Son of God did not contain his opinion alone, but that of all the apostles as well, and that is why, in actuality, the Saviour’s promise also pertains to them all. The Saviour’s question, "But whom say ye that I am?", was asked completely unexpectedly, and before the other disciples grasped it, the Apostle Peter, as the most impulsive, forestalled them, which happened not infrequently in other instances as well, and answered the Saviour first.
Further. In the Lord’s words, "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church", Catholics regard the words "Peter" and "rock" as identical and draw the conclusion that allegedly the Saviour wanted to found the Church on Peter himself, as on an individual, and on him alone. But here is a confusion of terms - the proper name is confused with the appellative. The proper name of this apostle in Hebrew is Simon. The Saviour, seeing the firmness of his faith, gives him a new name, or, more precisely, a nickname (as He also did with regard to James and John, calling them "Boanerges", that is, "sons of thunder" [Mark 3:17]) - Cephas in Hebrew, Petros in Greek. Here is a kind of play on words, which Catholic scholasticism also utilizes.

As for the mention of the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven and the right to bind and loose, here, in the person of the Apostle Peter, the Lord is giving a promise to all the apostles - especially since He repeats the very same promise and in the same expressions with regard to all the disciples in the same Gospel according to Matthew, slightly later (8:18); and after His resurrection, Christ fulfilled this promise, having said to all the disciples: "Receive ye the Holy Ghost: whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained" (John 20:22-23).
Now, let us turn to that passage in the Gospel according to John, which Catholics cite, attempting to prove that the su-premacy of the Apostle Peter over the rest of the apostles was established by God. In the twenty-first chapter of this Gospel (verses 15-17) we read: Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep."

In these words, Catholics see the fulfillment by the Lord of that promise which was given by Him before to the Apostle Peter, that is, the granting of authority and supremacy in the Church to Peter; moreover, by sheep they understand the apostles, while by lambs - the rest of the faithful.
The Saviour’s words, recorded in the Gospel according to John, were uttered shortly after the resurrection, that is, when the Apostle Peter was still found under the heavy oppression of his faintheartedness and renunciation of Christ. It was essential not only for him, but for the other disciples as well, to restore him to his previous apostolic dignity. This restoration was accomplished in this conversation. The words, "lovest thou me more than these?", serve as a reminder of Peter’s self-confident words, "Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended" (Matthew 26:33-35), and, "Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death" (Luke 22:33). The threefold question, "lovest thou me?", corresponds to the threefold renunciation by Peter, whom at this point the Lord no longer calls "Peter", but "Simon", his former name. The fact that Peter was grieved, was saddened after the Lord’s third question would be completely inexplicable if we are to allow that the discussion here is about granting the supremacy and vicariate to Peter. And, to the contrary, this sadness is fully under-standable if the Apostle Peter had seen in the Lord’s words a reminder of his renunciation. And it is hard to reconcile the Saviour’s further words with the supremacy of the Apostle Peter. While following after the Teacher, the Apostle Peter, having seen John, asked: "And what about this man?", and in reply he heard: "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me" (John 21:22). It is hard to suppose that the Saviour would speak thus to him whom He had assigned as His vicar and as the prince of the Apostles.
As for the Saviour’s words to Peter: "Feed my lambs; feed my sheep", the word "feed" does not at all signify the supreme authority of pastorship, as Catholic theologians assert, but simply the authority and responsibilities of pastorship proper to all the apostles and their successors. And there is no necessity to under-stand the words "sheep" and "lambs" in the sense of flock and pastors, understanding by the latter the very apostles themselves, as the Catholics would like, but more simply, following the Holy Fathers of the Church, to see in the sheep and the lambs two groups of the faithful - the less perfect and the more perfect, the infants in the faith and the adults.
The Orthodox Church teaches that the twelve apostles were completely equal among themselves according to their dignity, authority and grace. In a certain sense, it is possible to call the Apostle Peter the first, but the first among equals. This teaching is confirmed by the whole history of the apostles, as it is set forth in the books of the New Testament, where the full equality of the apostles among themselves is demonstrated indisputably (for example, Matthew 4:18-19; 10:1, 40; 19:28; 20:24-27; 23:8-11; Mark 10:35-37, 16:15; Luke 22:22-30 and many others); many passages demonstrate that the apostles received not only the grace of apostleship, but also the right to act by this grace in the Church, directly from Christ the Saviour, and not from the Apostle Peter (Matthew 4:18-22; Mark 1:16-20; Luke 9:1-6, John 20:21-23, and many others), and that all the apostles without exception are liable to a higher court - the Church (for example, Matthew 18:17).
The history of the Apostolic Council (Acts, Chapter 15) speaks especially clearly against the supremacy of the Apostle Peter. The Antiochian Christians appeal not to the Apostle Peter for the resolution of their perplexity, as should have occurred if we are to believe the Catholic dogma, but to all the apostles and pres-byters. We see in this excerpt from the book of the Acts of the Apostles that the question at the Council is subject to a general discussion by the Council and that the completion of the matter at the Council belongs to the Apostle James, and from his words the decision is written, and not from the words of the Apostle Peter.
The fact that Peter, according to the testimony of Sacred Scripture, is sent by the apostles (Acts 8:14), gives an account of his actions to the apostles and the faithful (Acts 11:4-18) and listens to their objections and even denunciations (Gal. 2:11-14), which of course, could not be if Peter were the prince of the apostles and head of the Church, also speaks against the Catholic teaching.
Orthodox theology strictly differentiates between the grace-filled service of the apostles and that of bishops. Bishop Alexander (Semenov-Tian-Shansky) writes of this: "The significance of the apostles was exceptional and in many ways exceeded the significance of bishops. Bishops head local churches, while the apostles were wandering preachers of the Gospel. An apostle, having founded a new local Church in some locale, would ordain a bishop for it and would himself go to another place to preach. In con-sequence of this, the Orthodox Church does not honor the Apostle Peter as the first bishop of Rome. Nonetheless, the Holy Church always allowed that among the bishops one is recognized as first in honor, but concerning his infallibility there is no discussion. "In the first ages, the primacy of honor belonged to the Roman bishop, while after his falling away into schism, it passed to the Patriarch of Constantinople" ("Orthodox Catechism", Paris, 181, page 160).
The teaching on the infallibility of the pope, which was completely unknown to the ancient, undivided Church, appeared in the Middle Ages, just like the teaching on the supremacy of the pope; but for a long time it met opposition on the part of the more enlightened, honest and independent members of the Catholic Church. Only in the year 1870, at the First Vatican Council, did Pope Pius IX succeed in turning this teaching into a dogma, in spite of the protest of many Catholics, who even preferred to leave this church and found their own community (of the Old Catholics) than to accept so absurd a dogma. By virtue of the definition of the Vatican Council, the pope is infallible when he, as the pastor and teacher of all Christians, defines or proclaims the truths of the faith ex cathedra, that is, officially, as the head of the Church. The nebulous expression ex cathedra is not understood in the same way by all Catholic theologians; but, no matter how one understands it, the Catholic dogma contradicts the whole spirit of Christ's teaching, which rejects the possibility of infallibility for an individual man, no matter what position he might occupy.
The dogma of the infallibility of the pope contradicts the whole history of the Church and of the papacy itself. History provides a whole series of indisputable facts concerning the errors of popes in dogmatic questions and the contradictions of popes among themselves in matters of faith. For example, Pope Sixtus V, in concert with the bishops, issued a Latin translation of the Bible corrected by him and, under threat of anathema, required it to be accepted as the most authentic. There proved to be major mistakes in this translation, and subsequent popes withdrew it from church use. Which of the popes was infallible, Sixtus or his successor? Pope Leo III not only refused to insert the filioque, the addition "and the Son," into the Symbol of Faith, but even commanded that the intact Symbol be engraved on tablets and set up in church. Within two hundred years, Pope Benedict VIII inserted this addition into the Symbol of Faith. Which of them was infallible? Out of the numerous instances of the dogmatic errors of the Roman bishops, it is sufficient to mention Pope Honorius (625-638), who fell into the Monothelite heresy (the false teaching, according to which Christ has only one will - the Divine) and was excommunicated from the Church by the Sixth Ecumenical Council. At this council, the delegates of the Roman bishop, Agathon, also were present and signed its decisions.
 
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Catholics assert that Christ made one of His disciples, namely the Apostle Peter, His vicar on earth, the prince of the apostles, the head of the visible Church with plenipotentiary authority over the apostles and over the whole Church, and that only through him did all the remaining apostles receive their grace-filled rights.

I'm not sure that is correct concerning Peter. James was the head of the Jerusalem church, not Peter, and it was his advice for example, not Peter's that was taken concerning which Jewish laws the Gentiles be asked to keep in Acts ch15
 
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eternally-gratefull

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Catholics assert that Christ made one of His disciples, namely the Apostle Peter, His vicar on earth, the prince of the apostles, the head of the visible Church with plenipotentiary authority over the apostles and over the whole Church, and that only through him did all the remaining apostles receive their grace-filled rights.

I'm not sure that is correct concerning Peter. James was the head of the Jerusalem church, not Peter, and it was his advice, not Peter's that was taken concerning which Jewish laws the Gentiles be asked to keep in Acts ch15
Amen. Not to mention. Paul was given authority three years before he even met peter or any of the other disciples.
 
Nov 22, 2012
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Catholics assert that Christ made one of His disciples, namely the Apostle Peter, His vicar on earth, the prince of the apostles, the head of the visible Church with plenipotentiary authority over the apostles and over the whole Church, and that only through him did all the remaining apostles receive their grace-filled rights.

I'm not sure that is correct concerning Peter. James was the head of the Jerusalem church, not Peter, and it was his advice for example, not Peter's that was taken concerning which Jewish laws the Gentiles be asked to keep in Acts ch15

Pope of Rome isnt the 1st and last.There r others Popes,on example leader of Coptic Christians is Pope also,but not the 1 from Rome.And Jesus didnt built the Church on Peter and dint gave only to Peter gifts,but to all Apostles the same.They all had command that what do forgive on earth it will be forgive on Heavens.Peter was in Antioch,so Antioch Patriarchs holds themselfs for successors of him and have seal with face of Peter and Paul.If you even want to count Peter in the Roman bishops, which is doubtful,u will not prove by anything,that he handed over to his successors not only episcopal authority, but all of his gifts.The Lord called apostle John son of the Virgin, but his successors in the Church of Ephesus did not had the title.Apostle James has been called a pillar of the Church, and he, not Peter, was chaired by the Apostolic Synod of Jerusalem, because there he was a bishop.
Do you know of the oldest times what is the title of Patriarch of Alexandria and Antioch?
You are Peter (Petros), and on this rock (petra), not on Peter, i.e. on the rock of faith will build His church.
Holy Apostles as required (Rule 34) and the Ecumenical Councils ordered that the bishops of each nation is considered among one of the chief, but the universal Church was not told about any head - except the Lord Jesus Christ.

And i can write a lot to u.But what u must know,is that all Churches r same and equal and all Patriarchs and Popes and Bishops are equal.


The apostles did not hide his residence, Peter was certainly murdered in Rome, and in that few people would know where he is, all that he wrote it in Rome, because there was no printing press and apostolic letters were gradually transferred from hand to hand.
He does not write it in Rome but in Alexandria, where he lived with Mark in a suburb called Babylon, as we learn from the lives of the hermits.
Later there Marco was caught and handed over to the Gentiles to martyrdom, and Peter ended his life in Rome, which we Orthodox do not deny, as do Lutherans saying that Peter was never in Rome.

How ever,Peter never called himself successor of Christ or higher then other Apostles,but brother with them and equal to them.At 1Peter 5:1-4 u will read that he equals himself with others elders and chef Shepherd is Jesus Christ.So,all those references from u r not correct and out of truth.
 
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Catholics assert that Christ made one of His disciples, namely the Apostle Peter, His vicar on earth, the prince of the apostles, the head of the visible Church with plenipotentiary authority over the apostles and over the whole Church, and that only through him did all the remaining apostles receive their grace-filled rights.

I'm not sure that is correct concerning Peter. James was the head of the Jerusalem church, not Peter, and it was his advice for example, not Peter's that was taken concerning which Jewish laws the Gentiles be asked to keep in Acts ch15

In fact,all rights for climing Pope of Rome as higher then Bishops,as successor of Apostle Peter are based on interpretations of Matthew 16:18.
 
A

Abiding

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Peter said he was a bishop and that he didnt lord it over anyone, but was an example to the believers.
1 peter 1:1-3
 
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I'm not sure that is correct concerning Peter. James was the head of the Jerusalem church, not Peter, and it was his advice for example, not Peter's that was taken concerning which Jewish laws the Gentiles be asked to keep in Acts ch15

Hi Geomater
Can you tell me specifically what I have stated incorrectly in the above, only other catholics have admitted to me it is accurate and not false
Thanks
 
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Jan 11, 2013
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Catholics assert that Christ made one of His disciples, namely the Apostle Peter, His vicar on earth, the prince of the apostles, the head of the visible Church with plenipotentiary authority over the apostles and over the whole Church, and that only through him did all the remaining apostles receive their grace-filled rights.

I'm not sure that is correct concerning Peter. James was the head of the Jerusalem church, not Peter, and it was his advice, not Peter's that was taken concerning which Jewish laws the Gentiles be asked to keep in Acts ch15

Only I don't see how the two statements above can be compatible. If Peter was the head of the visible church, how could Jamers have been considered the head of the church, and why was James advice taken above Peter's concerning the Jewish laws the Gentiles be asked to keep
And was Paul in grave error therefore to opose/rebuke Peter at Antioch?

BTW
I had always assumed Peter was the head of the church, it came as quite a shock to me to find out otherwise. I'm not sure that Paul would have looked to Peter as God's vicar on earth, I can't see that myself somehow
 
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Hi Geomater
Can you tell me specifically what I have stated incorrectly in the above, only other catholics have admitted to me it is accurate and not false
Thanks

Nothing,i just posted what verse interpretation causing all problems.
 
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Catholics assert that Christ made one of His disciples, namely the Apostle Peter, His vicar on earth, the prince of the apostles, the head of the visible Church with plenipotentiary authority over the apostles and over the whole Church, and that only through him did all the remaining apostles receive their grace-filled rights.

I'm not sure that is correct concerning Peter. James was the head of the Jerusalem church, not Peter, and it was his advice, not Peter's that was taken concerning which Jewish laws the Gentiles be asked to keep in Acts ch15

Only I don't see how the two statements above can be compatible. If Peter was the head of the visible church, how could Jamers have been considered the head of the church, and why was James advice taken aboive Peter's concerning the Jewish laws the Gentiles be asked to keep
And was Paul in grave error therefore to opose/rebuke Peter at Antioch?

BTW
I had always assumed Peter was the head of the church, it came as quite a shock to me to find out otherwise. I'm not sure that Paul would have looked to Peter as God's vicar on earth, I can't see that myself somehow

Peter never could be head of the Church,nor he ever was.We know who is the head of the church.
 
K

kenisyes

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Peter never could be head of the Church,nor he ever was.We know who is the head of the church.
As long as Peter and Paul were living in Rome, members of the church looked to them for headship. They were the apostles, after all. When they died, you can just hear the church members telling their kids "when Peter was alive, he would never have permitted this....", and then the kids telling the grandchildren "My daddy told me about Peter. He was a great and holy man. He was a personal friend of Jesus". Then the grandchildren saying to the great-grandchildren "God would never leave us without a great and holy man to lead us." I think that's exactly how it got started. People who are afraid to approach God on their own, need someone else to do it for them.
 
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As long as Peter and Paul were living in Rome, members of the church looked to them for headship. They were the apostles, after all. When they died, you can just hear the church members telling their kids "when Peter was alive, he would never have permitted this....", and then the kids telling the grandchildren "My daddy told me about Peter. He was a great and holy man. He was a personal friend of Jesus". Then the grandchildren saying to the great-grandchildren "God would never leave us without a great and holy man to lead us." I think that's exactly how it got started. People who are afraid to approach God on their own, need someone else to do it for them.

U mean on Sacred Tradition.Indeed Sacred Tradition and Latin Holy Fathers telling us that they never claim that Pope of Rome had any supremacy on others Churches.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
U mean on Sacred Tradition.Indeed Sacred Tradition and Latin Holy Fathers telling us that they never claim that Pope of Rome had any supremacy on others Churches.
You can take it however you want. Some people seem to need another person to point them toward God; some do not. There are many people can do that: A Pope, a pastor, Holy Fathers, saints, the guy next-door to you. But none who can bring to God like Jesus can.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Re: Behold, your mother!

Mary is Jesus' (God's) mother, and ours!

But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” Then He said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” From that hour the disciple took her into his own household.
John 19:25-27

We should all follow Christ's disciple's example and welcome Mary into our home.

Hail Mary, full of Grace! The Lord is with you!

In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!”
Luke 1:26-28
“Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!"
Luke 1:42


Praise and glory to you Lord Jesus Christ! Glory to God in the highest!
i don't know if this has already been posted.
but mary is not my mother. my mother's name is phyllis.

MARY WAS THE LORD'S MOTHER. not yours.

when Jesus finished His Work, john took mary to be his mother (and to be a son to her).

Galatians 4:26
But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

lutherans think very highly of mary.
she was a devout and faithful woman worthy of our deepest respect, obviously.
anybody who denegrates mary is on dangerous ground.

ppl who deify her are on more dangerous ground.

i don't know why some ppl bother having the baby jesus in some of their artwork at all because his halo is always smaller and he looks like a mini god compared to mary. i don't think that's necessary, nor a good idea. like....why have mary on anything resembling a throne?

pretending we're not worshipping mary is bogus. why not just say we are?
in a way i have more respect for that than the shell-game thing about it - oh it's a certain kind of veneration or whatever.
 
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You can take it however you want. Some people seem to need another person to point them toward God; some do not. There are many people can do that: A Pope, a pastor, Holy Fathers, saints, the guy next-door to you. But none who can bring to God like Jesus can.

Only your spiritual father can give u good references how to rise in faith.That is a case in Orthodoxy.As successors of 12Apostles was teached by 12Apostles,that is how they teached their successors and they teached priests and priests teach faithful people and convert them from wrong path.
There were many Bishops who didnt understood truth and teach heresy,but they were asked to repent after the TRUTH was declared at Ecumenical Council.On them ALWAYS were declared Orthodox teachings as TRUTH and heretics were called to repent that they could be again "One Body".
This fact is very important even today,when someone claim something,because it is clearly established Orthodox confession of Faith or by others words Faith of the Holy Fathers.Who ever step out of this confession of Faith,he has automatically decided himself from Holy Spirit and Church.

I hope that u understood me.No one by himself,ever,couldn't understood or lead to Salvation,which is crown of our Faith.
 
Q

quickfire

Guest
Amen brother geometar