John 6:37

[GreenNnice]

Yes the gospel is to about a chance. Without Gods work? No because Its impossible. But in that
if you mean man doesnt have to play a role in receiving the gift...which i think is your point ill put your scripture
back into context.

Matthew 19:16-26


[SUP]16 [/SUP]And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.




tribesman do you see verse 21. Was Jesus asking the man to atone for himself? No!
or justify himself? No! did the young rich ruler have a will? Aparently! did he reject Christ? Yes!
was the whole story a comedy? might be in some peoples estimation.

Good abidinghouse, and, how the heck are ya, my no longer a squirrel, friend


Here, at the end of my post, are a good couple verses from John 21 that parallels this free will choosing, and, yes, we are totally depraved, but through the Spirit in us we are totally free of our depravity That is a choice to live with the seal of the Holy Spirit, God is faithful to us so long as WE ARE FAITHFUL. God won't be unfaithful, His ways are just, and, true, and, truth, but we, indeed, can choose other than Him. When Jesus tells Peter, you MUST follow Me, Christ peeps, THIS is a command, or, dare I say, commandment. Now, but does Peter truly have His own choice to make to follow God, or, 'must' Peter follow Him? Could Peter have decided, then and there, to become bitter of John getting to stay until Jesus' returned while Peter would die? Sure, it would be Peter's own freewill choice.

We have the confidence and freedom to choose what we want to do, follow Him, or not. The Lord leads

Abiding's verse is good, and, here is one of my faves for understanding that Jesus gives us a choice that we MUST follow . God is convicting Peter's heart to not choose sin crouching at Peter's 'door,' so to speak. But, Peter MUST ultimately decide IF he, like Cain, wants to entertain the badness that is right there wanting to well up inside Peter, that bitterness. Peter decides IF he wants to harness following Jesus or IF he wants to harness following Satan, or, his own (Peter's) flesh.


[SUP]John
21 [/SUP]When Peter saw him, he asked,

 

[Elin]

Actually i dont know what made use the word harden when the context i was thinking
of was blindness in part. I made a total mix up of two distinct things.

My point being is that the blindness was only in part....till the gentiles were estblished
into the church and the old covenent was put away.

We are agreed that only part of them are totally blind, the larger part of them as it turns out.

Also that the blindness was from unbelief and not because they were not the elect.

Unbelief is blindness.

Those who are not elect do not believe because they are blind.

Those who are elect do believe, because they have eyes that see, as do some Jews.

Some Jews are elect.
To date, most are not.

But then, most of the world is not elect and do not believe because they are blind.
If they were elect, they would see and believe.

 

[Elin]

I realize all that about context and the danger of building doctrine on one verse. I could of used a plethora of verses but to keep the topic focused I decided to pick this one, but feel free to support your view with proper hermeneutics.

Grammar police here:

It's not "could of," it's "could have" or "could've."

This has become a common mistake.

 

[PS]

The only way God does anything. . .by his sovereign choice.

"It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort." (Ro 9:16)

"God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." (Ro 9:18)

"One of you will say: 'Then why does God blame us (for our hardened heart)? For who can resist his will (which hardens it)?' " (Ro 9:19)

Note the answer: no explanation

"But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?"

The only answer is the absolute sovereignty of God in his choice.

That's not me talking.
That's the revelation of Jesus (Heb 1:1-2) given through Paul, his apostle.

He made his sovereign choice way back at the foundation of the earth which the OP posted in Joh 6:37 "whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

If I might add, "Whoever comes" are the elect. Praise God.

 

[Elin]

The only way God does anything. . .by his sovereign choice.

"It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort." (Ro 9:16)

"God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." (Ro 9:18)

"One of you will say: 'Then why does God blame us (for our hardened heart)? For who can resist his will (which hardens it)?' " (Ro 9:19)

Note the answer: no explanation

"But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?"

The only answer is the absolute sovereignty of God in his choice.

That's not me talking.
That's the revelation of Jesus (Heb 1:1-2) given through Paul, his apostle.

He made his sovereign choice way back at the foundation of the earth which the OP posted in Joh 6:37
"whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

If I might add, "Whoever comes" are the elect. Praise God.

So it depends on man's desire, which is why they come?

 

[PS]

He made his sovereign choice way back at the foundation of the earth which the OP posted in Joh 6:37 "whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

If I might add, "Whoever comes" are the elect. Praise God.

It depends on our obedience. As you say God is Sovereign and He is calling us, pulling or dragging us in the same way He called Pharaoh. Those who do not respond after several calls, then their hearts are hardened.

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:1,2).

 

[Abiding]

We are agreed that only part of them are totally blind, the larger part of them as it turns out.


Unbelief is blindness.

Those who are not elect do not believe because they are blind.

Those who are elect do believe, because they have eyes that see, as do some Jews.

Some Jews are elect.
To date, most are not.

But then, most of the world is not elect and do not believe because they are blind.
If they were elect, they would see and believe.

I think the order is: they are blind because of unbelief.
not in unbelief because they were not elect, but not elect
because of unbelief and blind because of unbelief.

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine upon them." II Corinthians 4:3-4

 

[Elin]

"It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort."(Ro 3:16)

"Whoever comes to me, I will never cast out."

If I might add, "whoever comes" are the elect. Praise God.

So it depends on man's desire, which is why they come?

It depends on our obedience.

So then it depends on man's effort of obedience?

 

[Elin]

I think the order is: they are blind because of unbelief.
not in unbelief because they were not elect, but not elect
because of unbelief and blind because of unbelief.

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine upon them." II Corinthians 4:3-4

Almost. . .

They have been blinded by the god of this world, not by God, and that blindness (of the god of this world) is why they do not believe the gospel of God.

 

[PS]

So then it depends on man's effort of obedience?

If obedience is effort then so is disobedience.

 

[Abiding]

Almost. . .

They have been blinded by the god of this world, not by God, and that blindness (of the god of this world) is why they do not believe the gospel of God.

I can show you many places in the bible that says God Hewill do something and satan or a nation or an individual
carries it out. Satan does nothing on his own.

You are not reading the verse. read it slower. Whos minds are being blinded? those who do not believe.

It surely doesnt say satan blinds people minds so they wont believe because they are not the elect.
That may be what your trying to do with it. I dont know. But for sure it doesnt have a "is why" part to it.

 

[Elin]

If obedience is effort then so is disobedience.

Relevance?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

there is only one problem with this notion. You looking at one verse. and not the whole text to get context.

who is it that would be saved according to jesus in John 6?

vs 35 - 40 And Jesus said to them,

 

[Elin]

I can show you many places in the bible that says God Hewill do something and satan or a nation or an individual
carries it out. Satan does nothing on his own.

You are not reading the verse. read it slower. Whos minds are being blinded? those who do not believe.

So the god of this world has the power to blind those who do not believe?

The god of this world can judicially blind unbelievers?

Where is that in Scripture?

It surely doesnt say satan blinds people minds so they wont believe because they are not the elect.
That may be what your trying to do with it. I dont know. But for sure it doesnt have a "is why" part to it.

Expecting 2,000-year-old Scripture written in Greek to translate into simple sentences of modern English is unrealistic.

If you understand Biblical revelation regarding the nature and work of the god of this world, the nature of fallen man who is spiritually powerless (Ro 8:7), the nature of the unregenerate dead in trespasses and sin (Col 2:13; Eph 2;1), the nature of unbelief (Jn 10:36), you will understand what is the "is why" of 2Co 4:4.

 

[PS]

Relevance?

Personally I don't have a problem with obeying the Lord, or accepting the gift that is freely offered but you seemed to think it might require some effort?

 

[Abiding]

So the god of this world has the power to blind those who do not believe?

The god of this world can judicially blind unbelievers?

Where is that in Scripture?


Expecting 2,000-year-old Scripture written in Greek to translate into simple sentences of modern English is unrealistic.

If you understand Biblical revelation regarding the nature and work of the god of this world, the nature of fallen man who is spiritually powerless (Ro 8:7), the nature of the unregenerate dead in trespasses and sin (Col 2:13; Eph 2;1), the nature of unbelief (Jn 10:36), you will understand what is the "is why" of 2Co 4:4.

you added "judicially" to my comment. so you can answer your own question.

 

[superdave5221]

Did anyone else find this a difficult concept in their spiritual youth?
I struggled with 'free will' and especially 'fairness'.
('cpet in the long run I couldn't find those in the Word )

Now when I read the Bible, it seems I find God choosing when I'm not looking for it!



ps--gonna take me a while, similarly, to adjust to this new format.
I really dislike change, even when it's good for me.

Hey Pschomom,

Yes, I do struggle with it.

Because when you read the entire bible, there are numerous verses that would seem to suggest a choice. And yet, the author of this thread would ignore all of those, and suppose that his interpretation of one verse would supercede all of those.

The bible also suggests, again in many places, that the cause of evil and suffering in the world is sin. Does God will us to sin? And then, after He wills us to sin, He requires that we repent of that sin?

It is also clear that the reason that anyone will go to hell is because they lack righteousness. Righteousness is lacking because we have broken the Law. And since EVERYONE has broken the Law, no one is good, except God. Therefore, we are required to have the righteousness of Jesus Christ to cover our sins so that we can enter the kingdom of God. Is it really so easy to conclude that Jesus only died for the elect? For if Jesus died for All people, and certainly the language in John which says that Jesus came to save the world (everyone) seems to include everyone. And if Jesus did indeed die for everyone, then everyone should be saved, UNLESS, there is some kind of requirement, (choice, or repentence) involved.

Furthermore, are we to believe that our prayers for the lost are useless and of no effect? Should I pray for a friend's salvation if that salvation, or lack thereof, has already been determined? If God is making his election before the beginning of time, is He not considering any free choices in the future, INCLUDING the prayers of saints appealing for lost souls? Should we not pray for someone's salvation because someone in this site will surely see that as a "work"? Should I have in my heart this zeal to go out and evangelize, as commanded by Jesus, if my efforts are useless?

Yes, I do find it a difficult concept. And so did many great men and women throughout the centuries who were not in their spiritual youth.

And yet, there are many in this site, who with one sentence, or one verse, can explain everything!

 

[crossnote]

Grammar police here:

It's not "could of," it's "could have" or "could've."

This has become a common mistake.

ive all ways wandered why I got Dzz in gramer

 

[crossnote]

Hey Pschomom,

Yes, I do struggle with it.

Because when you read the entire bible, there are numerous verses that would seem to suggest a choice. And yet, the author of this thread would ignore all of those, and suppose that his interpretation of one verse would supercede all of those.

sounds like one is in assume mode, a very unfair and assumptive charge indeed .

 

[superdave5221]

sounds like one is in assume mode, a very unfair and assumptive charge indeed .

My apologies if I was incorrect. However, it was not an assumption. You did appear to place a great deal of weight on that one verse. For such a subject, which has been debated for centuries, it appeared to me to be an assumption on your part that one verse could carry that much weight in the context of the entire Word.

However, once again, I will accept your word, and offer my apology. Shalom.