Perfection in the Flesh - A Modern Strawman - Heresy of Penal Substitution

[BarlyGurl]

In fact the pre-forgiveness of sin completely negates the need for repentance, it is an absurd position to hold.
Here he is giving people assurance that they can go out and sin tomorrow and remain justified. What a liar. What a deceiver. He is a minister of Satan.

Again i think you are missing the principal of being BORN AGAIN, ABIDING IN CHRIST AND WALKING IN THE SPIRIT.
Repentance is NOT some form of ritualistic confession... repentance means CHANGE OF MIND... A REPROGRAMING OF YOUR THINKING... IF a born again person goes out and sins tomorrow... they will be convicted of the sin by the HOLY SPIRIT... which should elicit a CHANGE OF MIND in the believer to learn the wrongness of the action and be CHASTENED to not do that any more. This is part of the function of bible reading to learn the scriptures... so the HOLY SPIRIT can HELP US instructively. That is why Jesus acsended to give us the GIFT of the Holy Spirit and instructed us to abide in HIM and why paul said RENEW YOUR MIND IN CHRIST. The sin in not counted against the born again believer for WRATH/JUDGEMENT but the believer is still subject to any natural or legal consequences of their sin. Believers abide in CHRIST who sits at the right hand of the father to ever making intercession for us. You are confusing sacntification of the FLESH with lisenciousness. NO Born Again person thinks thay can go out and sin willfully... but plenty of NOT born again religious people do.

 

[BarlyGurl]

Thanks mark... I was actually addressing loveme... she likes to just paste scriptures and leave it a mystery to what she is trying to communicate in the context of the thread

 

[Skinski7]

In fact the pre-forgiveness of sin completely negates the need for repentance, it is an absurd position to hold.
Here he is giving people assurance that they can go out and sin tomorrow and remain justified. What a liar. What a deceiver. He is a minister of Satan.

Again i think you are missing the principal of being BORN AGAIN, ABIDING IN CHRIST AND WALKING IN THE SPIRIT.
Repentance is NOT some form of ritualistic confession... repentance means CHANGE OF MIND... A REPROGRAMING OF YOUR THINKING... IF a born again person goes out and sins tomorrow... they will be convicted of the sin by the HOLY SPIRIT... which should elicit a CHANGE OF MIND in the believer to learn the wrongness of the action and be CHASTENED to not do that any more. This is part of the function of bible reading to learn the scriptures... so the HOLY SPIRIT can HELP US instructively. That is why Jesus acsended to give us the GIFT of the Holy Spirit and instructed us to abide in HIM and why paul said RENEW YOUR MIND IN CHRIST. The sin in not counted against the born again believer for WRATH/JUDGEMENT but the believer is still subject to any natural or legal consequences of their sin. Believers abide in CHRIST who sits at the right hand of the father to ever making intercession for us. You are confusing sacntification of the FLESH with lisenciousness. NO Born Again person thinks thay can go out and sin willfully... but plenty of NOT born again religious people do.

What kind of sins are you talking about?

These sins?

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Or do you mean non-presumptuous sin like making a misjudgment, worrying, jumping the gun, lack of wisdom etc.

 

[mark54]

It's good to remeber that these are the people Christ reserved his harshest criticism for

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: [SUP]2 [/SUP]“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. [SUP]3 [/SUP]So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. [SUP]4 [/SUP]They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.[SUP]5 [/SUP]“Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries[SUP][a][/SUP] wide and the tassels on their garments long; [SUP]6 [/SUP]they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;[SUP]7 [/SUP]they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.’
[SUP]8 [/SUP]“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]The greatest among you will be your servant. [SUP]12[/SUP]For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[SUP][c][/SUP]
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ [SUP]17 [/SUP]You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? [SUP]18 [/SUP]You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.’ [SUP]19 [/SUP]You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? [SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And he who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.[SUP]24 [/SUP]You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.[SUP]26 [/SUP]Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. [SUP]28 [/SUP]In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. [SUP]30 [/SUP]And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ [SUP]31 [/SUP]So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. [SUP]32 [/SUP]

 

[BarlyGurl]

What kind of sins are you talking about?

These sins?

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Or do you mean non-presumptuous sin like making a misjudgment, worrying, jumping the gun, lack of wisdom etc.

All of them

 

[Abiding]

All of them

The whitewash

 

[mark54]

It says exactly what it means. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses you of all sin. When you die with Him and partake in His sufferings your heart is purged of rebellion. Your criminal record is wiped clean. We approach the mercy seat as a living sacrifice and we are sprinkled by the blood.

The sin is done away with. The bondage to sin ends. The rebellion ceases.

Read the verses before...

Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

There is a PURGING of sin. Past sins are remitted.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

See how the Scriptures match?

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


The Bible clearly speaks of PAST SINS being purged. Rom 3:25 and 2Pet 1:9 clearly testify to this. There is not a single scripture in the Bible that states that sins are forgiven in advance. In fact the pre-forgiveness of sin completely negates the need for repentance, it is an absurd position to hold. That is one reason that the pastor in the video above is a dangerous wolf who is clothed as a sheep.

Here he is giving people assurance that they can go out and sin tomorrow and remain justified. What a liar. What a deceiver. He is a minister of Satan.

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Satan has so many people deceived today. Don't be one of them.

Someone who is deceived does not even know it.

For by one sacrifice he has made forever perfect those who are being made holy
Heb10:14

If you are BEING made Holy you are not perfect in the flesh, but....................

 

[loveme1]

Hebrews 10

10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And having an high priest over the house of God;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[SUP]27 [/SUP]But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
[SUP]33 [/SUP]Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

I believe that this is what Skinski is trying to say here.

This teaches that we have our part to play and it does not take anything away from the Messiah, neither does it mean we did not need the Messiah to come.

The New Covenant is through the Messiah.

It is being Baptized with the Holy Spirit that guides and comforts us on the path of Righteousness there is no boasting for we believe and follow the the Shepherd.

The lost sheep can not take away the curse, the sheep could sin 10 times and do many wonderful things but without the Messiah it will lead to death for that is the wages.

One is made new to serve Heavenly Father in Spirit and Truth.

All this comes through the Messiah offering himself for us.

The heart is circumcised and if we believe then we hear and do what the Messiah tells us to do and that is sin no more. To Teach and Keep the Commandments of Yahvah God not to earn salvation for it is given by Grace that we may be reconciled and Worship in Spirit and Truth.

Matthew 22

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The bitterness against people that are doing what they are commanded to do is not good but even this one is to expect.

Many walk over the Messiah without even Realizing it.

Yahshua the Messiah said upon His words we are to build our house.

Yahvah God said:

Exodus 20

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Yahshua the Messiah instructed both of these things.

 

[mark54]

Hebrews 10



I believe that this is what Skinski is trying to say here.

This teaches that we have our part to play and it does not take anything away from the Messiah, neither does it mean we did not need the Messiah to come.

The New Covenant is through the Messiah.

It is being Baptized with the Holy Spirit that guides and comforts us on the path of Righteousness there is no boasting for we believe and follow the the Shepherd.

The lost sheep can not take away the curse, the sheep could sin 10 times and do many wonderful things but without the Messiah it will lead to death for that is the wages.

One is made new to serve Heavenly Father in Spirit and Truth.

All this comes through the Messiah offering himself for us.

The heart is circumcised and if we believe then we hear and do what the Messiah tells us to do and that is sin no more. To Teach and Keep the Commandments of Yahvah God not to earn salvation for it is given by Grace that we may be reconciled and Worship in Spirit and Truth.

Matthew 22



The bitterness against people that are doing what they are commanded to do is not good but even this one is to expect.

Many walk over the Messiah without even Realizing it.

Yahshua the Messiah said upon His words we are to build our house.

Yahvah God said:

Exodus 20



Yahshua the Messiah instructed both of these things.

What do the three quotes below mean Love me? How do you interpret each of them?

'I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. [SUP]2'

And [/SUP]

'This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.'




And also

You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. [SUP]3 [/SUP]You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

 

[Abiding]

Theres definatly a way to teach obedience without being a legalist.
One exhorts and the other causes shame and fear...which doesnt inspire
a godly sorrow. And often leads to despair.

The goodness of God leads man to repentance.

The sorry excuse of preaching legalism are these: the teaching of grace leads people to sin
or that your honoring God.

The Holyspirit didnt agree when He gave us scriptures, so why would He now?

One is of the flesh. The other is by the Spirit.

 

[mark54]

Theres definatly a way to teach obedience without being a legalist.
One exhorts and the other causes shame and fear...which doesnt inspire
a godly sorrow. And often leads to despair.

The goodness of God leads man to repentance.

The sorry excuse of preaching legalism are these: the teaching of grace leads people to sin
or that your honoring God.

The Holyspirit didnt agree when He gave us scriptures, so why would He now?

One is of the flesh. The other is by the Spirit.

Obediance comes by faith(Rom1:5)

Not human effort(Gal3:3)

No licence to sin for the sincere Christian(Heb10:16&17)

To God be all the glory

No legalist can say that with heartfelt conviction

 

[Abiding]

Sorry Barlygurl!

The whitewash statement was not meant for you
but to skinskis answer to you.

 

[loveme1]

What do the three quotes below mean Love me? How do you interpret each of them?

'I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. [SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. [SUP]2'

And [/SUP]

'This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.'




And also

You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. [SUP]3 [/SUP]You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Without the Messiah they are left in stone and not on our Hearts.


We are to be born of the Holy Spirit that guides and comforts.



If Loving my Heavenly Father and doing what is pleasing to Him is legalism, then it is the Law of Love indeed.

It is a Blessing and not a burden.

I will not deny the Holy Spirit.

For you quote yourself the word "laws" and when one Loves Heavenly Father it knows the 10 are the tenor and that Love brings them to life from within.

 

[loveme1]

Obediance comes by faith(Rom1:5)

Not human effort(Gal3:3)

No licence to sin for the sincere Christian(Heb10:16&17)

To God be all the glory

No legalist can say that with heartfelt conviction

Do you consider i'm a "legalist"?

 

[mark54]

Do you consider i'm a "legalist"?

Honest answer

I don't know, hadn't much thought about it. Maybe if we chat a lot more I may come to a firm opinion either way

 

[mark54]

Without the Messiah they are left in stone and not on our Hearts.


We are to be born of the Holy Spirit that guides and comforts.



If Loving my Heavenly Father and doing what is pleasing to Him is legalism, then it is the Law of Love indeed.

It is a Blessing and not a burden.

I will not deny the Holy Spirit.

For you quote yourself the word "laws" and when one Loves Heavenly Father it knows the 10 are the tenor and that Love brings them to life from within.

If the law is written on our hearts, why do we need the literal law/commands?

 

[loveme1]

If the law is written on our hearts, why do we need the literal law/commands?

What is sin?

 

[mark54]

What is sin?

Transgression of the law

Which means that you and I are sinners saved by grace, as I am sure neither one of us would claim to perfe4ctly uphold the law written on our hearts

 

[mark54]

What is sin?

I just noticed, you answered my question with a question, you didn't answer it, that's naughty

 

[loveme1]

Transgression of the law

Which means that you and I are sinners saved by grace, as I am sure neither one of us would claim to perfe4ctly uphold the law

If you had 4 sons and 3 were on death row for murder and you offered the son that had done no wrong in their place to be put to death so they could go free.

Would those 3 sons be grateful and love you if they came out and continued murdering people?

If we are made New from the old sinful person then we do not continue doing the things we were forgiven for.

Where is the Love?

We are shown Mercy and Forgiven to be reconciled with Heavenly Father.

Will he really be upset with the willing heart that desires to obey that which he says those that Love Him do?