Perfection in the Flesh - A Modern Strawman - Heresy of Penal Substitution

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A

Ariel82

Guest
#61
#61
Originally Posted by Ariel82
at minute 4:20 he sums up WHY the doctrine of penal substitution is beneficial

"then you can live through your identity in Christ. you can be bold enough to confess your sins and be forgiven not only by God but by others, and stop pretending and blame shifting and hiding and excusing and managing your sins. start putting your sin to death because in Christ it has already died. "

therefore Skinski you are mistaken and should formally apologize for the libel you have committed against this man by calling him a wolf and making such false statements as "Penal Substitution denies that God forgives sins."

The LIBEL is that the man in the youtube video does not teach people that GOD FORGIVES SINS. when if you listen to his message he clearly says that people need to understand what Jesus did on the cross in order for them to confess their sins and ask forgiveness instead of trying to shift blame.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#62
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#62
rauleetoe said:
Why are you feeling condemned because no one said that the gospel is 'go and keep on sinning'? What exactly is wrong with actually walking the walk and not just giving God and others lip service..maybe in your bible studies,and when you 'fellowship' it is encouraged and expected for one to play church and be disingenuous, but this is a matter of salvation or damnation here. No time to play church. You are either, A) of him..you walk the walk talk the talk, you live a life that represents that you have repented and bear the fruit of repentance in your life by the bundles good works! and Praise God,you are secure because you walk with him orrrr.. B) you deceive yourself into thinking that grace and the belief of a gracious and loving God is the one mere sufficient thing one has to do, and that lifestyle choices can be put on the back burner..after all, who can live for God they say! So a mere systematic theology will do for you,and some christianese lip service to God and to all those around you. Fool others, you may be successfull at, but God..well, he is smarter than that and i doubt you will be very successfull in doing so. That said, let's appeal to scripture shall we? what does James say...show me your faith without works,and I will show you faith that works!

james 2:18-26 read it sometime. It should be in your ESV lutheran study Bible I am sure. ;)

Oh and one more thing zone, Drop the caps by the way please. Its called pressing the caps lock a second time..not needed.
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i gave you the benefit of the doubt, even though you kept pressing the fraudulent wesley; and putting forward a guy like dave hunt as an authority on anything.

now that you're amen-ing the heretic skinski, you and i have nothing more to say.
 
R

rauleetoe

Guest
#63
#63
zone said:
i gave you the benefit of the doubt, even though you kept pressing the fraudulent wesley; and putting forward a guy like dave hunt as an authority on anything.

now that you're amen-ing the heretic skinski, you and i have nothing more to say.
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When you can show from a actual source that is reputable(not from a sin advocating person here or elsewhere) that Wesley never gave his life to Christ..then we can talk..other than that..all i am hearing is you parrot Luther, btw..you fool nobody..you are anti holiness..anti Wesleyan, pro calvinist(I suspect you are one) and i question if you too, like your Hero Luther may be an anti semite.hmm..its a thought.

As far as Dave Hunt, I doubt you really read any of his books.
But its fine, we go nowhere..you have a bias, and its evident..and it is not going to go away anytime soon.
Toodles.
 
M

mark54

Banned
#64
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
17
0
#64
Rauleeto, Tommy, Skinski

You all continually speak of being doers of the word and without this faith is dead

Could you tell me the works/deeds that you are doing in your lives that you believe most of Christendom(and people on this website) are failing to do?

And what sins do you believe the vast majority of people are committing who go to church that you all abstain from

And if you have all crucified your flesh does this mean you never have any impure thoughts? Or desire anything, even fleetingly that you should not desire?
Just trying to understand where you feel you personally are succeeding in your lives and the majority of Christians are not
Thanks
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#65
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#65
good luck Mark.
i'll check back in later.
and next week and a year from now.
keep asking - you'll never get the answers you're seeking.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#66
#66


Well sure hum, ill record this.
 
U

unclefester

Guest
#67
#67
mark54 said:
Rauleeto, Tommy, Skinski

You all continually speak of being doers of the word and without this faith is dead

Could you tell me the works/deeds that you are doing in your lives that you believe most of Christendom(and people on this website) are failing to do?

And what sins do you believe the vast majority of people are committing who go to church that you all abstain from

And if you have all crucified your flesh does this mean you never have any impure thoughts? Or desire anything, even fleetingly that you should not desire?
Just trying to understand where you feel you personally are succeeding in your lives and the majority of Christians are not
Thanks
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Ditto. Had just typed a similar reply but decided against appealing to those whose works are "even greater than Christ's". And here all this time I thought Christ was referring to the greater works of spreading the gospel. This quote from rauleetoe ... post #57 ...

This is the danger of a belief in a mere forensic imputed Righteousness. Christ died so we can become like him,and he even said that he who believes in him,the works he does,they will do,and even greater!
For many it is just easier to appeal to a mere forensic imputed righteousness..its the easy route, so they can return to their sunday christian sinfull ways.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#68
#68
unclefester said:
Ditto. Had just typed a similar reply but decided against appealing to those whose works are "even greater than Christ's". And here all this time I thought Christ was referring to the greater works of spreading the gospel. This quote from rauleetoe ... post #57 ...

This is the danger of a belief in a mere forensic imputed Righteousness. Christ died so we can become like him,and he even said that he who believes in him,the works he does,they will do,and even greater!
For many it is just easier to appeal to a mere forensic imputed righteousness..its the easy route, so they can return to their sunday christian sinfull ways.
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Well who are you to say im not holier that Jesus are any of you here? I think your just feeling conviction.:p
 
U

unclefester

Guest
#69
#69
Abiding said:
I think your just feeling conviction.:p
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Let's all turn to our hymnals and sing together :

Anything Christ can do I can do better .... I can do anything better than Him .... :confused:
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#70
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#70
mark54 said:
Rauleeto, Tommy, Skinski

You all continually speak of being doers of the word and without this faith is dead

Could you tell me the works/deeds that you are doing in your lives that you believe most of Christendom(and people on this website) are failing to do?

And what sins do you believe the vast majority of people are committing who go to church that you all abstain from

And if you have all crucified your flesh does this mean you never have any impure thoughts? Or desire anything, even fleetingly that you should not desire?
Just trying to understand where you feel you personally are succeeding in your lives and the majority of Christians are not
Thanks
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i'd like to see the answers......
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#71
#71
Id never put anyone on the stage just for having a different
theological position, but after their 1000th time of accusing
me for being a lover of willful sin and on the road to hell then
its testimony time.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#72
#72
Abiding said:


Well sure hum, ill record this.
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I know dear that i type phonetically but im not sure
anyone reads it anyhows. :cool: anyway i think their just
washing up and combing their hair. I just know it isnt all
talkytalk...especially that one guy.
 
R

rauleetoe

Guest
#73
#73
mark54 said:
Rauleeto, Tommy, Skinski

You all continually speak of being doers of the word and without this faith is dead

Could you tell me the works/deeds that you are doing in your lives that you believe most of Christendom(and people on this website) are failing to do?

And what sins do you believe the vast majority of people are committing who go to church that you all abstain from

And if you have all crucified your flesh does this mean you never have any impure thoughts? Or desire anything, even fleetingly that you should not desire?
Just trying to understand where you feel you personally are succeeding in your lives and the majority of Christians are not
Thanks
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If this is a trick question, I do not get it. Second, it clearly says in the word that we are not even to talk of the things others(not us) do..see Ephesians . As far as what sins are committed the most..no one is stating one sin is worst than the other(is that another word game,trick?).
Thirdly, sin is sin..is sin..is sin. And God is Holy..is Holy..and regardless..grace without repentance is still a cheap imitation. We must walk with Christ, if we are 'in Christ' 2 corinthians 5:17, then we are a new creation, and all things are new..we are to put on Christ, Romans 14:13, and make not provision to sin(some do not choose to do this, disobeying is still sin none the less)
and we are to walk this walk. What would it sound like if you were to stand by an Orange tree, that simply had a sign that said 'orange tree', then upon expecting the tree, you see these bright orange fruit globes, Oranges! You shriek in amazement...
No, no one is surprised when one sees fruit on a healthy tree. So why are you stating that a healthy,and true christian can bear no fruit or should not be concerned with fruit? This is what it seems you are implying after all..is it not? A tree is known by its fruit..be not amazed. You will know them by their fruit, not by their great 'testimonies' or christian t shirts.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#74
#74
Why dont you answer the questions
 
R

rauleetoe

Guest
#75
#75
Abiding said:
Id never put anyone on the stage just for having a different
theological position, but after their 1000th time of accusing
me for being a lover of willful sin and on the road to hell then
its testimony time.
Click to expand...

No one was talking to you directly sir..but if you have sin that needs repenting then handle that. By all means.
Having said that, no one was accusing, but many who appeal to grace either A)are licentious and seek to only see how much one can get away with and still be considered a christian B)run the risk of being licentious C)are religious about not being religious.

As far as theology, who mentioned theology this time? You did sir ninja Charismatic.
We can talk theology if you want to, but i am more concerned about the ignorance of calvinists here, mainly one who did not even know what double predestination was(a tenet of five point calvinism) Until I, an arminian, pointed out to him what it is, and he still did not even know what i was talking about.. and here he is trying to tell me what I believe. I do however believe its a mere hatred of that which he does not know, or hatred of anything that is not easy believism. Yes, I am calling you out Grandpa, I suggest you read some theology books before you go here and make a fool of yourself.
 
R

rauleetoe

Guest
#76
#76
Abiding said:
Why dont you answer the questions
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I did sir. But seeing as you are not a calvinist, or arminian, we all know you are just the devil's advocate, and a usefull instigator at best. I need not answer what you ask me to answer. Read my posts, if that does not satisfy you..well then..oh well.
 
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
#77
#77
rauleetoe said:
Thirdly, sin is sin..is sin..is sin.

Uh... No it isn't.... the bible is full of examples of how GOD views certain sinful actions as MORE egregious than others, he even call some abominations. Do you actually READ the bible? You are saying that being and axe-murdering cannibal is the same as calling in sick to work to take a personal day. Surely you have enough intellect to reason the two are NOT just "sin is sin".
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B

BarlyGurl

Guest
#78
#78
rauleetoe said:
I did sir. But seeing as you are not a calvinist, or arminian, we all know you are just the devil's advocate, and a usefull instigator at best. I need not answer what you ask me to answer. Read my posts, if that does not satisfy you..well then..oh well.
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YOu are out of order...
 
M

mark54

Banned
#79
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
17
0
#79
rauleetoe said:
If this is a trick question, I do not get it. Second, it clearly says in the word that we are not even to talk of the things others(not us) do..see Ephesians . As far as what sins are committed the most..no one is stating one sin is worst than the other(is that another word game,trick?).
Thirdly, sin is sin..is sin..is sin. And God is Holy..is Holy..and regardless..grace without repentance is still a cheap imitation. We must walk with Christ, if we are 'in Christ' 2 corinthians 5:17, then we are a new creation, and all things are new..we are to put on Christ, Romans 14:13, and make not provision to sin(some do not choose to do this, disobeying is still sin none the less)
and we are to walk this walk. What would it sound like if you were to stand by an Orange tree, that simply had a sign that said 'orange tree', then upon expecting the tree, you see these bright orange fruit globes, Oranges! You shriek in amazement...
No, no one is surprised when one sees fruit on a healthy tree. So why are you stating that a healthy,and true christian can bear no fruit or should not be concerned with fruit? This is what it seems you are implying after all..is it not? A tree is known by its fruit..be not amazed. You will know them by their fruit, not by their great 'testimonies' or christian t shirts.
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You should have been a politician, you avoided answering the questions very well indeed, great deflection

I
 
M

mark54

Banned
#80
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
17
0
#80
zone said:
i'd like to see the answers......
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Well I know they aren't people who would feel comfortable blowing their own trumpets as it were, but I do think in this instance it would be helpful to know specifically the deeds/works they feel they are doing in their daily lives that most other Christians are not.
How else are we to know in which areas we are falling short in our own lives?

It doesn't seem helpful just to hear bland comments such as
I have put my flesh to death
I have died to self
I virtually never commit sin

It would seem more beneficial to be told how this has practically worked out in their lives. Then we have specifics to aim for in order to attain to a higher level in the faith
 
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