study - Olivet Discourse

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G

GRA

Guest
#1
#1
This thread is dedicated to a study on the Olivet Discourse. This chart is the centerpiece of the study. It is a work in progress. I am posting it now to give you a "preview" of it so you can "look it over" and see what you might conclude...

I will try to update the chart with new information as I am able.

The chart is too large to insert in the post. Please just use the link above and open it in a new window.

As is normal for a thread in this forum - comments are welcome...
:)

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WolfInOxHide

WolfInOxHide

Banned
#2
Jul 12, 2012
933
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#2
Another good one. God bless you for your hard work.
I have been wanting to do one like this on the garden tomb myself.


"And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet."
 
R

Rene_N

Banned
#3
Oct 20, 2012
9
0
0
#3
GRA said:
This thread is dedicated to a study on the Olivet Discourse. This chart is the centerpiece of the study. It is a work in progress.

As is normal for a thread in this forum - comments are welcome...

:)

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Click to expand...
I had a look at your chart. I had one just like it about 12 years back. Some of the comments even reflect my thinking back then. I can only hope you keep going with it. Keep asking questions, there's alot of them.

PS. there are things that apply to only the Jewish world of the time and you have them mixed together with end-time things which cause many contradictions to appear.

I ignored them for a long time. Till they started wakign me up at night.

If you continue, they will start to wake you up at night also.

Wait... you're human right? Yeah, I suppose you are.
 
G

GRA

Guest
#4
#4
Rene_N said:
I had a look at your chart. I had one just like it about 12 years back. Some of the comments even reflect my thinking back then. I can only hope you keep going with it. Keep asking questions, there's alot of them.

PS. there are things that apply to only the Jewish world of the time and you have them mixed together with end-time things which cause many contradictions to appear.

I ignored them for a long time. Till they started wakign me up at night.

If you continue, they will start to wake you up at night also.

Wait... you're human right? Yeah, I suppose you are.
Click to expand...
No contradictions -- this is the only way I can see it whereby everything actually fits together and makes any sense at all - including - and especially - rows 25-26.

The only thing that is "strictly Jewish" is the abomination of desolation, the destruction of the temple, and the immediate aftermath on Jerusalem - which affects both Jews and Christians in the region. Everything else happens [at most] then-but-also (without question) in the future - with some things happening only in the [distant] future. And all of the 'future' things are about Christians only.

Now - it may be that the "Great Tribulation" itself is the aforementioned 'aftermath' -- but if so, then it must also "subside" into a [continued, general] tribulation that is still the same "tribulation period" referred to in rows 9, 11, 12, 13, and 17 - without "breaking" any of the verses that descibe it as "a single 'unbroken' tribulation period"...

The things of rows 3, 4, and 18 are "seen" by people in both "near-future" AND "far-future" time-frames.
I believe that the things in rows 5, 6, and 7 are only "seen" by people in the "far-future" time-frame.

Hence - the "near-future" people DO NOT see "all these things" -- but, the "far-future" people DO...

Row 17 puts the start of the "Great Tribulation" around 70 A.D.
Row 20 puts the end of the "the tribulation of those days" at [not too long] before the return of Christ.
The verses of both rows are referring to the same "tribulation period"...

"The one thing that I am absolutely-convinced-beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt about, is -- rows 20-22 have not happened yet."

As hard as it may be to believe - it certainly appears as if the "Great Tribulation" is actually ~ 2000 years long.

:)

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F

feedm3

Guest
#5
#5
I think Luke 17:21-37 is also worth considering. It speaks much of the same language. You may have it somewhere in your chart and overlooked, or have a particular reason for not using it. I just see it as part of the same, though it has to do with a question from the Pharisees rather than the disciples.
 
Bookends

Bookends

Senior Member
#6
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#6
Row 14= 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations;

your comments=[ jump forward in time ]
The completion of the preaching of the gospel to all nations.

The questions is how much time is the jump and of what end (age) was Jesus talking about? Which I believe is answered in Matt. 24:34.

What the bible says=
Romans 1:8, "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world."
Acts 2:5, "And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven."
Colossians 1:5-6, "because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;"
Colossians 1:23, " if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
 
Bookends

Bookends

Senior Member
#7
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#7
GRA said:
No contradictions -- this is the only way I can see it whereby everything actually fits together and makes any sense at all - including - and especially - rows 25-26.

The only thing that is "strictly Jewish" is the abomination of desolation, the destruction of the temple, and the immediate aftermath on Jerusalem - which affects both Jews and Christians in the region. Everything else happens [at most] then-but-also (without question) in the future - with some things happening only in the [distant] future. And all of the 'future' things are about Christians only.

Now - it may be that the "Great Tribulation" itself is the aforementioned 'aftermath' -- but if so, then it must also "subside" into a [continued, general] tribulation that is still the same "tribulation period" referred to in rows 9, 11, 12, 13, and 17 - without "breaking" any of the verses that descibe it as "a single 'unbroken' tribulation period"...

The things of rows 3, 4, and 18 are "seen" by people in both "near-future" AND "far-future" time-frames.
I believe that the things in rows 5, 6, and 7 are only "seen" by people in the "far-future" time-frame.

Hence - the "near-future" people DO NOT see "all these things" -- but, the "far-future" people DO...

Row 17 puts the start of the "Great Tribulation" around 70 A.D.
Row 20 puts the end of the "the tribulation of those days" at [not too long] before the return of Christ.
The verses of both rows are referring to the same "tribulation period"...

"The one thing that I am absolutely-convinced-beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt about, is -- rows 20-22 have not happened yet."

As hard as it may be to believe - it certainly appears as if the "Great Tribulation" is actually ~ 2000 years long.

:)

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Click to expand...
I see no need to go into detail, for if you are absolutely-convinced-beyond-a-shadow-of-a doubt, then no man will convince you otherwise. So I'll just offer up my brief opinion:

1) I see no reason why row 5,6 and 7 can't be referring to time of Christ's crucifiction to 70AD for if you read the Historians of the 1st century you can make a case that all these things could be fulfilled.

2) The context of the olivet discourse is overwhelming circumstancial within the period between Christ and 70AD and not universal:

a. straight from the beginning with the temple references and come end of the age (old covenant, Jewish cultural and religious practices which was the focal point of Jewish life). The KJV I believe does this passage no justice by translating "world" for "age" with all copies of the original manuscripts use "aion".

b. 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. This is all circumstancial, and doesn't apply to us today.

c. 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. I believe this be both a reference to Christ coming in Judgment against apostate Israel, and well as Christ ascension depicting Christ of taking the reigns of His Kingdom and dominion. The Lord coming on clouds is used throught the OT in reference to both judgment of nations and His ascension, and we must ignore that we need to interpret scripture with scripture to understand the full meaning of this.

d. 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
Jesus says that ALL this things will take place in "this" generation, and by no means will that "general generation" pass away, die, before All these events take place. Curtainly you can say that this could be circumstancial to the 1 century Christians.

Other scripture in the NT seem to back this interpretation up.

Hebrews 10:25, "25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." What day? Who was the writer of Hebrews addressing? Wouldn't it make sense that during this time of the 1st century church and the major persecution that they faced, that sticking together and helping each other out is more beneficial then to Christians, then in times of minor persecution? (I'm not saying that this doesn't have application for us today).

Same goes for James 5:8, "8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand." (meaning near)..

I could come up with more examples, But I'll spear you that. I do agree there is a great tribulation, which I believe refers to the time from Christ to 70AD, and a general tribulation, which includes all the trials and tribulations of all the saints throughout all of time.

Peace and God's love to you all !
 
G

GRA

Guest
#8
#8
Since my website no longer exists, the link in the original post is no longer valid... :(

I have created a picture album in my profile... :cool:

Apparently, the images will not show at 100%... :mad:

Sorry... :p

:rolleyes:

Anyway - here is the chart - such as it is... :eek:










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G

GRA

Guest
#9
#9
Here is the last part... (only 7 images allowed per post)




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G

GRA

Guest
#10
#10
Here they are 'attached' but not 'inline'...

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Attachments

C

Crossfire

Guest
#12
#12
Great stuff GRA. I look forward to checking it out more in depth later. :)
 
G

GRA

Guest
#13
#13
Crossfire said:
Great stuff GRA. I look forward to checking it out more in depth later. :)
Click to expand...
:cool:

"After you have had a chance to look it over --- let me know what you think..."

( Crossfire - and anyone else - comments are welcome... )

:)

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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#14
#14
GRA said:
:cool:

"After you have had a chance to look it over --- let me know what you think..."

( Crossfire - and anyone else - comments are welcome... )

:)

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Click to expand...
I think ya have some of the chronologies off.. The beginning of sorrows are some of the things spoken (wars and rumors, False Christs, etc etc. The abomination starts the tribulation. Which ends with the return of Christ.
 
G

GRA

Guest
#15
#15
"After you have had a chance to look it over --- let me know what you think..."
Click to expand...
"Make sure that you do not miss the 'Chronological Order' chart."

[ The small chart after the big chart. ]

:)

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N

nathan3

Guest
#16
#16
The Abomination of desolation should be future, not 70 AD.

When Christ says, events that that have not been since the beginning of the creation, nor will be. He cant be talking about 70 AD. After all you're in agreement its about Christ return as the subject. Then The Desolator'''''' should be kept in the subject , Christ return . Events as being greater then ever has been and ever will be, has to be this time. Not their time, imo
 
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G

GRA

Guest
#17
#17
nathan3:

In what span of time would you place "the times of the Gentiles" ... ?

Is it a long period of time or is it a short period of time?

Is it past, present, or future?

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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#18
#18
nathan3 said:
The Abomination of desolation should be future, not 70 AD.

When Christ says, events that that have not been since the beginning of the creation, nor will be. He cant be talking about 70 AD. After all you're in agreement its about Christ return as the subject. Then The Desolator'''''' should be kept in the subject , Christ return . Events as being greater then ever has been and ever will be, has to be this time. Not their time, imo
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Agreed. not to mention the fact that in 70 AD, there was no possibility of tribulation being so great that "all flesh" could be wiped out, bring about about the need for Christ to return, or all flesh would not survive.
 
N

nathan3

Guest
#19
#19
GRA said:
nathan3:

In what span of time would you place "the times of the Gentiles" ... ?

Is it a long period of time or is it a short period of time?

Is it past, present, or future?

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Your going to have to bring me up on what the time of the Gentiles is referring to ? Luke 21:24 ? In the mean time, i'll study more about this. I'll return the day i have a better understanding
 
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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#20
#20
GRA said:
nathan3:

In what span of time would you place "the times of the Gentiles" ... ?

Is it a long period of time or is it a short period of time?

Is it past, present, or future?

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1. When the gentile nations are defeated by Christ at his return.
2. Past, present and future would all be correct. It started with babylon, and will end with Rome2.
 
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