Connecting the Dots . . .

zone · Feb 12, 2013

As you have been shown many times before from Adam on into our future the only method of salvation has been through the sherd blood of Christ. After all, we all drink from the same Rock and that Rock is Christ.
1Co 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea: And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Your continued refusal to honestly and objectively examine the view being espoused and your willingness to misrepresent (I.E. LIE) and say that we are saying there is another way only serves to demonstrate that you are not capable of providing a fair and honest evaluation of the view being espoused.

No one is asking you to submit to the heretical viiews C.I. Scofield included in his bible's notes. As for me I agree with the two revisionist that were on his revision committee that resigned because they refused to be a part of the heretical futurist teachings he chose to include in his bible’s notes. So it is obvious your implication that we follow the futurist propoganda as included in the Scofield bible is nothing more then another blatant fallcy that you continue to promote. Futurists do not like my views (see peterT’s replies to me if you would like examples)..Now you can either be intellectually honest and start searching for the truth or you can continue to misrepresnt (I.E. LIE) about the view I hold so you can continue demonstrating your prejudice against the Jews. The choice is yours as you are led!

I do agree that fear is a powerful tool and that some can be brainwashed. Sadly your continued refusal to accept what the Scriptures you have been shown say, coupled with your continued use of wikipedia rather then Scripture in an effort to villanize all Jews only demonstrates just how much you have been brainwashed on this matter.
As you are led friend, as you are led!

PS
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

I am still waiting for your Scripturally sound explanation of how one can be elect while being an enemy of the gospel. I guess you haven’t found that article in wikipedia yet, maybe it’s time to turn to the Scriptures instead of wikipedia. I doubt if you will find much truth in wikipedia as anyone can edit there articles.

you have ONE passage you have built an entirely bogus system on.

your system is the worst form of antisemitism ever devised.

zone · Feb 12, 2013

Isaiah 56:8
The Lord GOD, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, declares, “I will gather yet others to him besides those already gathered.”

^ when did this happen? ^

John 10
14I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

^ here. it happened right here^ it started WITH THE JEWS - the Jew FIRST...then, after that, following, subsequent to, after that, then......to the JEW FIRST, then the GENTILE

is that hard for you? jew FIRST....then gentile.

John 10
I Am the Good Shepherd
1“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

7So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. 14I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. 17For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

19There was again a division among the Jews because of these words. 20Many of them said, “He has a demon, and is insane; why listen to him?” 21Others said, “These are not the words of one who is oppressed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

I and the Father Are One
22At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me,a is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

^ who is Jesus talking to? ^
to whom did He go? ONLY?

did any receive Him?

what about the ones who didn't? He kindly blinded them so they could be saved through MOSES?

but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

did Jesus find His sheep?
did He say they knew Him and followed Him?

or was His Ministry an EPIC FAIL?

who was the other flock?
any clue?

is there ONE FOLD......OR TWO?

zone · Feb 12, 2013

John 5
Witnesses to Jesus
30“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 31If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not deemed true. 32There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. 36But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent.39You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. 41I do not receive glory from people. 42But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. 43I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

doe this sound Jesus said Jews who rely on MOSES don't have to believe on Him?
OR CAN'T?

what did He say?

For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

did He say anything remotely close to this:

45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is no one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope is enough since I have kindly blinded you. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But since you don't believe me, that's OKAY, I won't pour new wine into into in case you explode and perish 47 But even if you do not believe Moses' writings, it's also okay that you will not believe my words?

HUH?
anything like at all from Jesus?
anywhere?
is that what He meant to say?

let's take a look soon at your Romans 9 proof texts, on which you have all the jews' eternal fate pinned.......(i might, i might not today. it's barely worth my time anymore)

can you see what this says:?

you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent.
you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent.
you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent.

Abiding · Feb 12, 2013

I asked you to provide a Scripturally sound explanation of how a Jew can be elect while being an enemy of the gospel. Once again you have failed to demonstrate how one can be an enemy of the gospel while being elect.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

As i said i had the two greeks words then used the wrong word, anyway you see my point.
And on the above verse and your question. After i seen you claimed i was avoiding it i only
saw this for the first time.

Anyway its not so much that im avoiding it now as it is hard to explain my view without a page or two
why i hold such a view. In otherwords its not easy to back up. Actually noones view on that
verse is easy to back up. So yes right now you can say im avoiding it due to the work involved.

And if this thread is around by the time i am ready to answer on it ill post it.
And ill post it only for how it ties into the meaning of the "fullness" of the gentiles.

zone · Feb 12, 2013

Acts 15
The Jerusalem Council
1But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question. 3So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.a 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. 5But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

6The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

who is speaking?

is this gentile Apostles and elders holding a council in Jewish Jerusalem to see what Mosaic Law the Gentile disciples should adhere to?

it has to be - because the JEWS WERE BLINDED.

was Peter a Gentile? how about Paul? < gentiles?

or REMNANT of ISRAEL? can't be....they're BLIND....old skins who might blow up with new wine poured into them

who is Peter talking about here? what's he saying about who will be saved...AND IN WHAT WAY/ MANNER?

"we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will"

is Gentile (or oddly not-blind Jew?) Peter saying:

1) we gentiles believe that we gentiles will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus just as those blind jews will?

2) we jews believe that all jews whoever lived though they reject Jesus will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus just as those gentiles will?

2) we jews believe that some of us jews will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus just as those gentiles will, but that most of us will have to wait 2000 years?

anything whatsoever even close to that?
anywhere? WHERE???

and what does he mean:

"we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will"?

did he actually mean to say, and did he ever say anywhere anything like this:

"we (few lucky jews) believe that most of us will actually be saved through the gracious blinding of the Lord Jesus because we have to be enemies of the gospel for 2000 years so X number of gentiles could be saved, just as they will"?

where?
show me where!

Abiding · Feb 12, 2013

Hmmm getting all biblical here. Them dots. Yes antisemitism at it best.
With a alternative to the one and only way given to man.

zone · Feb 12, 2013

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

who is Jesus speaking to?

jews?
gentiles?

did He actually mean to say:

Fantasy 8:24
I tell you that you will not die in your sins, for you do not have to believe that I am He.

In fact, go back to Moses, since you are good Old Testament Jews who are old wine skins who might break if I give you the New Wine of the New Covenant.

So, even though I am supposed to be FULFILLING the Old Covenant, and even though My Father sent Me to call you AND SAVE YOU all, since I have to bring in the other flock of gentiles, you can stay in the Old Covenant, and believe in the Prophet Moses spoke about....even though I AM HE.

I will just mercifully blind you, then I will have TWO WITNESSES, two people, Two Covenants and everybody can start killing Muslims.

is that what you want me get on board with....ya.
no thanks,

zone · Feb 12, 2013

Antisemitism in result, carried out by (well-meaning?) christians who have followed a counterfeit message instigated by a select few reprobates in the cult of The Pharisees who don't want ANY jews "saved" by "THAT MAN".

Who Was Jesus?

"The Bible gave a warning about a dangerous, false prophet who would arise to test our faith in G-d. In Deuteronomy 13, G-d describes this false prophet as a member of the Jewish people (v. 2, 7) who would tell true prophecies and would have the power of miracles. G-d Himself would give this false prophet the power to perform miracles and reveal prophecy, but the false prophet would try to seduce the people away from G-d's Law and towards strange gods unknown to Judaism. The purpose would be to test whether we are truly committed to living under the Law, or whether we will be dazzled and fall for the temptation to join a false path to salvation (v. 3-6, 7-8, 11). In this Biblical passage, G-d repeatedly commands the Jews to kill this false prophet, lest the evil spread and destroy many souls.

To be accepted by the people, the false prophet would sometimes pretend to be a righteous Jew who fulfills the Law, but at key moments he would turn against certain details of the Law in order to make the breach (v. 6, 7). This is the reason that verse 1 commands us not to add or subtract any details from the Law, and verse 5 warns us to remain steadfast with all the traditions of the Law.

In Deuteronomy 17, this false prophet is also described as someone who would rebel against the authority of the judges of the Jewish people, and who should be put to death for his rebelliousness (v. 8-13, esp. v. 12). Who are the judges? The highest court in Israel was the Sanhedrin, which was established by Moses (Exodus 18:13-26; Numbers 11:16-29), and which lasted more than 15 centuries. The members of the Sanhedrin were the rabbis known as "Pharisees" (Pirushim, "those with the explanation"). G-d gave permanent authority to these judges to interpret the Law and G-d's Word, and it is a commandment to follow their decisions without turning even slightly to the right or the left (Deut. 17:11). But the false prophet would challenge the authority of the Sanhedrin, thus revealing himself to be an evil man.

In the book of the prophet Daniel, this false prophet is described as a king (the eleventh horn on a terrible beast) who would wage war against the Jews (the "holy ones"; see Deut. 14:2 on this term) and would change the Law including the calendar and the holidays (Daniel 7:8, 20-25). Elsewhere, this false prophet is described as a king who would disregard the G-d of his fathers, exalting himself as a god and giving honor to this new god-head (Daniel 11:36-39)."

The man known today as "Jesus" fulfilled all these prophecies.

Who Was Jesus? < click

oh yes....that's going to work real well with The Father.

and they keep the poor kids locked away and teach them to hate Jesus and everything about him.

Jews for Judaism < click

no....they are supposedly believing on Jesus AS PROPHESIED, but rejecting His Person and that's OKAY with God...only trouble is, that's NOT what Jews believe. who is the suffering servant many of them are looking for?

Who is the Son of G-d?
This "Suffering Servant" Holds the Key to Your Salvation

Who is the Son of G-d? < click

but...according to the OP and others who teach this stuff.....they are good, faithful Old Testament Jews who might perish if they have New Wine poured into them, being good OLD BOTTLES.

they're only doing what God ordained for their good - dying without Jesus, rejecting and hating Him.

they'll somehow be saved though, because apparently they believe in the prophet Moses spoke about - it just ain't this man:

The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of "Jesus the Nazarene":

He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).
He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).
He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh—which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).

Who Was Jesus? < click

what obscenity.
what a mockery of Christ and His suffering.
and we're supposed to go along with it.

they never include this part in their proof-texting:

Romans 11
Gentiles Grafted In
11So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.

wait....what?
Paul is very confused....shouldn't he remember he just said earlier they would be blinded for X centuries til X number of Plan B gentiles comes in....then Plan A restarts?..or....alternatively, there's no Plan A or B: THE PLAN always was to have Two Peoples.

so why is he trying to make jews jealous...in order to save some of them?
doesn't he know THEY ARE ACCEPTABLE OLD WINE BOTTLES and why doesn't he just leave it at that?

Abiding · Feb 12, 2013

zone said:

Antisemitism in result, carried out by (well-meaning?) christians who have followed a counterfeit message instigated by a select few reprobates in the cult of The Pharisees who don't want ANY jews "saved" by "THAT MAN".

Who Was Jesus?

"The Bible gave a warning about a dangerous, false prophet who would arise to test our faith in G-d. In Deuteronomy 13, G-d describes this false prophet as a member of the Jewish people (v. 2, 7) who would tell true prophecies and would have the power of miracles. G-d Himself would give this false prophet the power to perform miracles and reveal prophecy, but the false prophet would try to seduce the people away from G-d's Law and towards strange gods unknown to Judaism. The purpose would be to test whether we are truly committed to living under the Law, or whether we will be dazzled and fall for the temptation to join a false path to salvation (v. 3-6, 7-8, 11). In this Biblical passage, G-d repeatedly commands the Jews to kill this false prophet, lest the evil spread and destroy many souls.

To be accepted by the people, the false prophet would sometimes pretend to be a righteous Jew who fulfills the Law, but at key moments he would turn against certain details of the Law in order to make the breach (v. 6, 7). This is the reason that verse 1 commands us not to add or subtract any details from the Law, and verse 5 warns us to remain steadfast with all the traditions of the Law.

In Deuteronomy 17, this false prophet is also described as someone who would rebel against the authority of the judges of the Jewish people, and who should be put to death for his rebelliousness (v. 8-13, esp. v. 12). Who are the judges? The highest court in Israel was the Sanhedrin, which was established by Moses (Exodus 18:13-26; Numbers 11:16-29), and which lasted more than 15 centuries. The members of the Sanhedrin were the rabbis known as "Pharisees" (Pirushim, "those with the explanation"). G-d gave permanent authority to these judges to interpret the Law and G-d's Word, and it is a commandment to follow their decisions without turning even slightly to the right or the left (Deut. 17:11). But the false prophet would challenge the authority of the Sanhedrin, thus revealing himself to be an evil man.

In the book of the prophet Daniel, this false prophet is described as a king (the eleventh horn on a terrible beast) who would wage war against the Jews (the "holy ones"; see Deut. 14:2 on this term) and would change the Law including the calendar and the holidays (Daniel 7:8, 20-25). Elsewhere, this false prophet is described as a king who would disregard the G-d of his fathers, exalting himself as a god and giving honor to this new god-head (Daniel 11:36-39)."

The man known today as "Jesus" fulfilled all these prophecies.

Who Was Jesus? < click

oh yes....that's going to work real well with The Father.

and they keep the poor kids locked away and teach them to hate Jesus and everything about him.

Jews for Judaism < click

no....they are supposedly believing on Jesus AS PROPHESIED, but rejecting His Person and that's OKAY with God...only trouble is, that's NOT what Jews believe. who is the suffering servant many of them are looking for?

Who is the Son of G-d?
This "Suffering Servant" Holds the Key to Your Salvation

Who is the Son of G-d? < click

but...according to the OP and others who teach this stuff.....they are good, faithful Old Testament Jews who might perish if they have New Wine poured into them, being good OLD BOTTLES.

they're only doing what God ordained for their good - dying without Jesus, rejecting and hating Him.

they'll somehow be saved though, because apparently they believe in the prophet Moses spoke about - it just ain't this man:

The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of "Jesus the Nazarene":

He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).
He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).
He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh—which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).

Who Was Jesus? < click

what obscenity.
what a mockery of Christ and His suffering.
and we're supposed to go along with it.

they never include this part in their proof-texting:

Romans 11
Gentiles Grafted In
11So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.

wait....what?
Paul is very confused....shouldn't he remember he just said earlier they would be blinded for X centuries til X number of Plan B gentiles comes in....then Plan A restarts?..or....alternatively, there's no Plan A or B: THE PLAN always was to have Two Peoples.

so why is he trying to make jews jealous...in order to save some of them?
doesn't he know THEY ARE ACCEPTABLE OLD WINE BOTTLES and why doesn't he just leave it at that?

Excellent work today grasshopper

peterT · Feb 12, 2013

1Christianwarrior316 said:

yes,You totally twist and rewriting scripture to suit your doctrine and your traditions of man.

And that’s not bearing witness to the truth.

This is how you preach and teach it—

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist, (except for the Jews)

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (except for the Jews)

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son(except for the Jews)

1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. (except for the Jews)

You say the Jews are washed by the blood of the lamb? Some kind of hidden Jesus were they don’t have to confess him with their mouth and believe in their hearts that God has raised him from the dead to be saved .

Romans 10: 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

(except for the Jews they don’t have to confess or believe in their hearts that God has raised him from the dead to be saved)??

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

If that’s not twisting scripture and rewriting scripture I don’t know what is.

The only people that are getting the short end of the stick in this conversation, are the Jews themselves, you puff them up so mush, why would they need to confess Jesus to be saved.

peterT · Feb 12, 2013

Therapon said:

No it’s not untrue

Yes they are saying that Bro

That is what “doulos: and “1Christianwarrior316” and “you” believe.

Some kind of hidden Jesus were they don’t have to confess him with their mouth and believe in their hearts that God has raised him from the dead to be saved, washed by the blood of lamb without actually believing in Jesus, or confessing him with their mouth or believing in their heart that God has raised him from the dead.

Some kind of hidden Jesus were they don’t have to eat his flesh and drink his blood or believe in there heart that god has raised him from the dead

Saved, but not the conventional way

Saved, but not by confessing the lord Jesus

Saved, but not the same way we are saved

Saved, but not by eating his flesh and drinking his blood as we do

Saved and washed by some other lamb

zone · Feb 12, 2013

1Christianwarrior316 said:

hi Warrior

this is all that is mean by Pauls' filling up; fullness; of the CHURCH [ekklesia] by the gentiles coming in.
this 'mystery' - that was previously hidden, now revealed, was that God had always planned to bring in the gentiles, expanding; enlarging; filling up His family beyond just the remnant of Israel.

take any part of your pleroma; and apply it to this passage and you will see it is an exact match.

Colossians 1 c. 62AD
Paul’s Ministry to the Church
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. 29 For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.

in a very few, short years.....70AD.

zone · Feb 12, 2013

zone said:

now add this:

Ephesians 3 c.62 AD
The Mystery of the Gospel Revealed
1 For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— 2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

7 Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God’s grace, which was given me by the working of his power. 8 To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, 10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him. 13 So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory.

it's a match.

The Eternal Purpose - the fullness of the gentiles just means The Stone becoming a Mountain incluging every kindred tongue and nation.

hidden in times past, but revealed.
and what would be the grafting back in, inclusion of repentant, awakened jews - through the preaching of the very same Gospel?
glorious - as life from the dead.

Romans 11:23
And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

Therapon · Feb 12, 2013

Abiding said:

In trying to disprove the doctrines of another, we see people quoting one verse to disprove a different verse. Problem is that all of Scripture is the Word of God so all Scripture is true as written.

Consequently, the truth is in finding how verses that appear to conflict may be reconciled.

So Abiding, rather than assuming we're all heretics, why not just accept at face value the verses we believe in and find out how they can reconcile with the verses you have been quoting to disprove them.

Love you in the Lord, bro.

Therapon · Feb 13, 2013

peterT said:

You are wrong, but there is obviously no way to show you otherwise.

When Ronald Reagan was president, he invited the Washington press core to meet him on a bank of the Potomic River. Reagan then walked on water across the river. The next day, the Washington Post's banner headline read, "PRESIDENT REAGAN CAN'T SWIM." Somehow your posts reminded me of that.

Abiding · Feb 13, 2013

Therapon said:

Did i say anyone was a heretic? I doubt it. And i do listen to others ideas and engage
with it when interested. The only thing i may have had any real issue with is salvation
through the Old Covenant especially since noone can without a temple and sacrifices.
Other than that i dont know what your talking about. In fact i havnt even read the OP

Therapon · Feb 13, 2013

Abiding said:

Well, I have never believed that salvation depended on having the right doctrine, if it did, then salvation could depend, not on heart condition, but on head knowledge and on when you were born in history. According to Micah 6:8 and many other verses, salvation depends on having a right heart before God.

Abiding · Feb 13, 2013

Therapon said:

Very true. But Jesus did say His own would understand the doctrine. Im not saying He meant all the nooks and crannies.
But anyone teaching the Old Covenant is still in place is definantly a false teacher cuz that WILL have eternal consequences.

Therapon · Feb 13, 2013

Abiding said:

Yes, but is God just? Would a holy God send His covenant people to hell for not believing truths He prevented them from seeing? How can the Jews know doctrines that God has sovereignly blinded them from seeing, Romans 11:8?

zone · Feb 13, 2013

Therapon said:

He said yes. (why you insert your Merciful blinding of the Old Bottles so they don't perish and explode is beyond me...well, not really).

John 8:24
Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."

unless you're claiming the Pharisees were not His covenant people.

The sages of the Talmud see a direct link between themselves and the Pharisees, and historians generally consider Pharisaic Judaism to be the progenitor of Rabbinic Judaism, that is normative, mainstream Judaism after the destruction of the Second Temple. All mainstream forms of Judaism today consider themselves heirs of Rabbinic Judaism and, ultimately, the Pharisees.

Pharisees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click

in which case, you still have a problem.
i'd be rather alarmed if i were you.

Connecting the Dots . . .

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Abiding

Guest

Senior Member

Abiding

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Abiding

Guest

peterT

Guest

peterT

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

Therapon

Guest

Therapon

Guest

Abiding

Guest

Therapon

Guest

Abiding

Guest

Therapon

Guest

Senior Member