Connecting the Dots . . .

[JaumeJ]

I KNOW! Colors should be dark also, that is for those who care that others are able to see well, avoid light reds (pinks) and yellows, and definitely never white. Also go for contrast. Some posts I cannot read at all, although occasionally highlighting them does the trick. God bless all in Yeshua, amen.
[QUOTE=SarahM777;905871]But it's really hard for us with low definition eyes to see that teeny tiny (Lawyer type) print. [/QUOTE]

 

[doulos]

By faith that’s how, from Saul to Paul, Saul of the elect of God was an enemy of the gospel BUT became Paul.

That doesn’t explain how an enemy of the gospel is elect. Do you have a Scripturally sound explanation explaining how an enemy of the gospel can be elect? Remember the verse says they ARE elect while being enemies of the gospel. It does not say they convert to Christianity then become elect.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

The Jews were the elect by birth, but not all Israel is of Israel, and you have to be born of the spirit and obedient to God to be the elect and of Israel.

Regardless of whether we are talking about Old Testament or New Testament saints one must be born again to be part of the elect (born again). It makes no difference when you live (pre or post crucifixion) or whether or not you or born a Jew or a Gentile. No one is elect by birth.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Were the Jews born again at birth? Of course not, so they are not elect by birth.

Why dont you explain to Me how they are coming to Jesus, and have been coming to for 2000 years.

spirit of slumber or not, Jews have been coming to Jesus since the day Jesus spoke.

That’s right many have been coming to Jesus from the time of crucifixion, and will continue to do so. The ones that have been coming to Christ through the New Testament are some of the branches that were broken out and have been grafted back in. But let’s not forget that SOME of the Jews (not all) were given a spirit of slumber until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Those given a spirit of slumber until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in are still under that spirit of slumber and can’t be grafted back again through a method God has sovereignly blinded them to. Abraham, Isaac, Moses and the other old Testament saints weren’t saved because they adhered to the law, but because they were born again. Born again by coming to know Christ through the Old Testament Scriptures, not adhering to the law.
1Co 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Due to the fact that some (not all) have been sovereignly blinded by God some (not all) Jews are not in transgression by observing only the Old Testament and as a result there is no reason those given a spirit of slumber can’t come to know Christ and be born again just as Moses Abraham and other Old Testament saints did.

NOTHING in them verses that you just quoted saying the Jews are saved without Jesus.

You are absolutely correct. But then again I don’t see where Therapon or anyone said they were. No one is saying that they are saved without knowing Jesus. After all as 1Cor10:1-4 (quoted above) tells us we all drink from the same rock. Why don’t you take a little time and gain an understanding of what is being said rather then continuing this strawman argument against something that isn’t being said?

 

[doulos]

There is only one way the Jew can become part of God's economy, and that's outlined in Leviticus 26

[SUP]40 [/SUP]‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,

[SUP]41 [/SUP]and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
[SUP]42 [/SUP]then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.

The Israelites did repent once upon their return from Babylonian captivity, not today they never have repented from their unbelief as a nation as a whole. The few that did, became Christians.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

They were still scattered in the first century. And let’s not forget they are returned to their land before they are cleansed.

Eze 36:19-26 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through
the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. And
when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name,
when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his
land. But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among
the heathen, whither they went.Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the
Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake,
which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my
great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst
of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I
shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen,
and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I
sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and
from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new
spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh,
and I will give you an heart of flesh.

 

[doulos]

and, there we have your real beliefs ellis.

jews don't need Jesus.

Zone you know that is not what Therapon is saying. Whether one is an Old Testament saint or a New Testament saint the only way to see the kingdom of God is to be born again.

Dual-covenant theology is a Christian view of the Old Covenant which holds that Jews may simply keep the Law of Moses, because of the "everlasting covenant" (Genesis 17:13) between Abraham and God expressed in the Hebrew Bible, whereas Gentiles (those not Jews or Jewish proselytes) must convert to Christianity or alternatively accept the Seven Laws of Noah to be assured of a place in the World to Come.

"Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha'i, needs to believe in Jesus...but not Jews."
John Hagee, interview with the Houston Chronicle

Arabs = bad terrorists - Dome of the Rock is the Abomination of Desolation
Jews = just plain chosen - support Israel
Christians = we're not sure....Plan B? - support Israel, even though they hate Jesus, they're chosen

so you re not into Dual Covenant theology....
you're a universalist?

nah. that's wicked dispensational theology.

Not sure if you are just misunderstanding or if there is something else going on, but Therapon is not saying that Jews don’t need Jesus. Regardless of whether one is an Old Testament saint or a New Testament saint one must be born again to see the kingdom of God. (John3:3) We all drink from the same Rock and that is Christ. (1Cor10:1-4)

the jews have had the Gospel available to them all along.

Some have, but not all. The ones broken out do and many of those have been grafted back in by reckognizing the gospel. But let’s not forget some have been given a spirit of slumber until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
With gentiles still coming to the Lord on a daily basis we would be hard pressed to say the fullness of the gentiles has come in. So clearly per Scripture part (not all) of the Jews are still sovereignly blinded and will be into the future

if they turn to Christ the veil is remo.....oh....wait....

Yes let’s wait and while we are waiting let’s see when Scripture says the veil is removed.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

apparently they can't be grafted back in if they continue not in unbelief, because they're blinded by God into our future.

Those who have been sovereignly blinded can be born again just like Abraham, Moses and all the other Old Testaments saints. Remember we all drink from the same Rock. (1Cor10:1-4)They aren’t grafted in by accepting the New Testament but instead by being provoked to jealousy and returning to the only Scriptures they are allowed to see and coming to know Christ that way just like Abraham, Moses and other Old Testament saints. Remember the covenant is everlasting and for God to be true to His word would require some Jews to be under it still or it would not be evrlasting and would be nothing more then a thing of the past.

]apparently that veil will not be removed because they can't turn to Christ.

Not because they can’t turn to Christ but because the fulness of the Gentiles has not come in. But that doesn’t mean they can’t return to the Scriptures they are allowed to see (the Old Testament) be born again by placing their faith in Christ just as the Old Testament saints were.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Those whave been sovereignly blinded will have that veil in place until the fullness of the gentiles comes in. But thankfully some of those will be provoked to jealousy and return to the only Scriptures that God allows them to see, the Old Testamen or Covenant and as a result will come to know Christ and be born again just as Abraham, Isaac, Moses and other Old/everlasting covenant saints were. God’s Covenant is everlasting and for God to be true to His word that it is an everlasting covenant requires that He keep a remnant under the covenant.

i wonder who i believe.

Do you believe that blindeness in part has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in? (Roman11:25)
Do you believe an enemy of the gospel can be elect (born again)? (Roman11:28)
I do.

ellis and dispy heresy?
or scripture.

The view espoused by Therapon is not the same as the dispy view. I’m not sure whether your misrepresentation of the view is intentional or unintential but either way it is still a misrepresentation (I.E a lie), nothing more then a strawman used to discredit a view by misrepresentation. So instead of twisting the view being espoused why not discuss it honestly on its merits and whether or not it matches Scripture instead of resorting to misleading tactics like that? Is it more important to search for the truth or resort to such tactics to discredit others in attempt to defend your doctrine?

universalism for every jew who ever lived because they were circumcised?
but ever'body else needs the Lord.

That’s not what Therapon is espousing, yet you continue to misrepresent what he is espousing. Sad how very sad.

get your story straight ellis.

He has and it is firmly rooted in Scripture. I am sorry you are incapable (intentionally or unintentionally) of gaining an understanding the view Therapon is espousing so we could actually discuss it on its merits in a courteous manner, rather then constantly be refuting your misrepresentations of the view. Why don’t you take a little time and gain an understanding of what is being said rather then arguing against something that isn’t being said?

Are you and Therapon such good friends you are now on a first name basis? If so why the attitude and the strawman argument against something he didn't say?

 

[doulos]

As I wrote earlier, the largest group in a congregation is usually those who sit there with their arms crossed, who couldn't hear a spiritual truth if you were levetating three feet off the floor and God's hand was actually writing it on the wall.

So rather than just throwing up straw-men that you want me to waste my time knocking down, why not try proving those numbers wrong? Try proving why Rev 1:20, Rev11:3-4 and Romans 11:24-25 and 11:28-29 don't show that the Two Witnesses of the Christian era are the Jewish people and the Gentile Church. Try proving from the Bible why the Islamic Dome of the Rock and 688AD doesn't fit those Scriptures and thus is the biblical "abomination that maketh desolate."

You know what? I'm sick of this and I'm out of here.

There will always be those who misrepresent what you say in an attempt to discredit you when they can't prove it wrong. In the long run many will see through their tactics and as a result their straw arguments only serve to discredit ther own ability to honestly discuss the subject at hand. Keep up the good work!

 

[peterT]

That doesn’t explain how an enemy of the gospel is elect. Do you have a Scripturally sound explanation explaining how an enemy of the gospel can be elect? Remember the verse says they ARE elect while being enemies of the gospel. It does not say they convert to Christianity then become elect.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.




Regardless of whether we are talking about Old Testament or New Testament saints one must be born again to be part of the elect (born again). It makes no difference when you live (pre or post crucifixion) or whether or not you or born a Jew or a Gentile. No one is elect by birth.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Were the Jews born again at birth? Of course not, so they are not elect by birth.


That’s right many have been coming to Jesus from the time of crucifixion, and will continue to do so. The ones that have been coming to Christ through the New Testament are some of the branches that were broken out and have been grafted back in. But let’s not forget that SOME of the Jews (not all) were given a spirit of slumber until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Those given a spirit of slumber until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in are still under that spirit of slumber and can’t be grafted back again through a method God has sovereignly blinded them to. Abraham, Isaac, Moses and the other old Testament saints weren’t saved because they adhered to the law, but because they were born again. Born again by coming to know Christ through the Old Testament Scriptures, not adhering to the law.
1Co 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Due to the fact that some (not all) have been sovereignly blinded by God some (not all) Jews are not in transgression by observing only the Old Testament and as a result there is no reason those given a spirit of slumber can’t come to know Christ and be born again just as Moses Abraham and other Old Testament saints did.




You are absolutely correct. But then again I don’t see where Therapon or anyone said they were. No one is saying that they are saved without knowing Jesus. After all as 1Cor10:1-4 (quoted above) tells us we all drink from the same rock. Why don’t you take a little time and gain an understanding of what is being said rather then continuing this strawman argument against something that isn’t being said?

It doesn’t matter what spirit thy were given they still have to drink of his blood and eat of his flesh.

There are no scriptures saying the Jews are saved with no regard for Jesus and no regard for the words of Moses and no regards of the prophets, and they regard none of these.

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

There is one mediator between God and man the man is Christ Jesus and neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

You can’t say they already know Jesus and are saved and drink still from the same spiritual rock it they don’t confess with their mouth the lord Jesus and believe in there heart that God has raised him from the dead because confession is made unto salvation.

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


Acts18:5And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

Does that sound like the Jews are saved?


Maybe with your help and wisdom and you knowledge and understanding all these things, you can re-wright some of john verses and we can correct john when we see him.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist, (except for the Jews)

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (except for the Jews)

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son(except for the Jews)

 

[zone]

As I wrote earlier, the largest group in a congregation is usually those who sit there with their arms crossed, who couldn't hear a spiritual truth if you were levetating three feet off the floor and God's hand was actually writing it on the wall.

So rather than just throwing up straw-men that you want me to waste my time knocking down, why not try proving those numbers wrong? Try proving why Rev 1:20, Rev11:3-4 and Romans 11:24-25 and 11:28-29 don't show that the Two Witnesses of the Christian era are the Jewish people and the Gentile Church. Try proving from the Bible why the Islamic Dome of the Rock and 688AD doesn't fit those Scriptures and thus is the biblical "abomination that maketh desolate."

You know what? I'm sick of this and I'm out of here.

just because i won't buckle under your so-called special revelation means i "couldn't hear a spiritual truth if you were levetating three feet off the floor and God's hand was actually writing it on the wall "?

God already wrote it!

you're rewriting it, and you are doing it for a reason.

i proved your numbers wrong last time we did this - over a year ago.

why don't you go learn what Daniel 9 means.
bye.

 

[zone]

The ones that have been coming to Christ through the New Testament are some of the branches that were broken out and have been grafted back in.

ya...this dispensational fantasy must include some form of mystical reincarnation.

the branches that were broken off in Paul's day were either grafted back in while they were alive or they perished.
get real.

 

[zone]

There will always be those who misrepresent what you say in an attempt to discredit you when they can't prove it wrong.

it's been proven wrong.
anyone can do it, and you don't need a magic calculator.
just read Daniel 9.
then read Matthew.

DONE.

 

[peterT]

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

They were still scattered in the first century. And let’s not forget they are returned to their land before they are cleansed.

Eze 36:19-26 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through
the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. And
when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name,
when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his
land. But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among
the heathen, whither they went.Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the
Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake,
which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my
great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst
of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I
shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. For I will take you from among the heathen,
and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I
sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and
from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new
spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh,
and I will give you an heart of flesh.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greetings.

Now that would be 12 spiritual tribes of Israel of the Christian faith, that James was greeting.

Matthew 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

2000 years has past since the governor came, and who is Jesus ruling over? Us Christians spiritual Israel

And Jesus made one blood of all nations of men on the face of the earth, and there is nether Jew or Greek in Christ Jesus

 

[Abiding]

If you look close you can see it..wow!
thanks jukey!

 

[doulos]

Zone, Just because you disagree with the view someone espouses does not give you license to be disrespectful (calling someone by their real name rather then their user name etc…) or to LIE in order to misrepresent the view being espoused so you can falsely claim you have proven it wrong! Doing so only serves to hurt your credibility by demonstrating that you are not capable of providing an honest evaluation of the view being espoused. So let’s have a look at one (no need to beat a dead horse and provide multiple examples) of ofyour statements and expose the lie you are promoting.

From post 31 this thread:

and, there we have your real beliefs ellis.

jews don't need Jesus.

Show us where Therapon said that Jews don’t need Jesus? You can’t because he didn’t say it, nor does his post imply that. No where does Therapon say that the Jews don’t need Jesus as you falsely claim (I.E. LIE). Regardless of whether or not one is intentionally or unintentionally misrepresenting what someone else is saying does not change the fact that the misrepresentation is a lie. Therapon has explained it is not a case of the sovereignly blinded Jew not needing Jesus (as you falsely rrepresent his view to be) but instead a case of them coming to know Jesus and being born again through the only Scriptures they are allowed to see, the Old Testament. It’s not really all that difficult to understand but it does require one to be intellectually honest when evaluating what Scripture says instead of blindly following the doctrines of men or leaning on private interpretations.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So clearly, all must be born again in order to see the kingdom of God. This includes everybody not just those who lived after the crucifixion. Even Old testament saints like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses had to be born again. That is why Christ told Nicodemus before the crucifixion:
Joh 3:7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Regardless of whether one is Jew or Gentile (by birth), or their position on the timeline (pre or post crucifixion) if they are to see the kingdom of God they must be born again. In today’s world (year 2013), almost all (not all) of us our allowed to see the truth of the Gospel and as a result must choose to accept or reject the gift of salvation based upon that knowledge. The reason I said almost all of us is because part (not all) of the Jews, have been sovereignly blinded by God until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and as a result that select group of Jews are not allowed to see the gospel. So in the case of those select Jews (once again, not all Jews were blinded this only applies to those sovereignly blinded) that have been sovereignly blinded by God, we must ask are they in transgression by failing to recognize the truth of Christ’s first advent and the gospel? Of course not because where there is no law there is no transgression.
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
As Romans 4:15 tells us where there is no law there is no transgression, so for the Jews that have been given the spirit of slumber (not all Jews only those given the spirit of slumber by God until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in) there is no transgression because there is no law that requires them to accept or reject the first advent of Christ and the gospel based on what the New Testament teaches. Instead the only method of salvation available to the select group of Jews that have been sovereignly blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in is by returning to the Old Testament and coming to know Christ and being born again just as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses were.

1Co 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea: And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea: And did all eat the same spiritual meat: And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

If the sovereignly blinded can’t come to know Christ and be born again through the only Scriptures they are allowed to see, the Old Testament, then what is the reason behind provoking them to jealousy? It isn’t so that they accept something they are sovereignly blinded to, but instead to make them turn to Christ through the only Scriptures they are allowed to see and come to know Christ and be born again just Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the other Old Testament saints did. (providing God a way to be true to His word and keep the everlasting covenant alive, in addition their blindness opens the door for the New Covenant providing God with a second witness).

Now please be intellectually honest and provide a yes or no answer to a couple questions.
Aren’t all required to be born again to see the kingdom of God?
Are there enemies of the gospel that are elect?
Did God make an everlasting covenant with the Jews?

These will require a bit more then a yes or no.
Zone can you provide a Scripturally sound argument that shows how one can be an enemy of the gospel yet still be elect? Can you provide a Scripturally sound explanation how the everlasting covenant God made with the Jews is everlasting, if there are no Jews still observing that covenant?

Are you willing to address the actual issue in an effort to find the truth? How does mocking, ridiculing, being disrespectful or misrepresenting (I.E. lying) promote a productive discussion? I wonder who would want you to continue using the tactics you’ve been using.


Col 4:6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

Is being disrespectful to Therapon (by using his real name instead of his user name or mocking him) doing as the above verse instructs? Is misrepresenting (I.E. lying) doing as the above verse instructs? I find it impossible to believe the tactics and disrespect you use are inspired by God or that God would want you to continue behaving in such a manner.
It is your right to disagree and even argue the point. But at least be intellectually honest and base your argument on what is actually being said and not some LIE (regardless of whether the lie is intentional or unintentional) that you are perpetuating about his view.

 

[peterT]

Zone, Just because you disagree with the view someone espouses does not give you license to be disrespectful (calling someone by their real name rather then their user name etc…) or to LIE in order to misrepresent the view being espoused so you can falsely claim you have proven it wrong! Doing so only serves to hurt your credibility by demonstrating that you are not capable of providing an honest evaluation of the view being espoused. So let’s have a look at one (no need to beat a dead horse and provide multiple examples) of ofyour statements and expose the lie you are promoting.

From post 31 this thread:


.

talk about the "the lie you are promoting" you say

Maybe with your help and wisdom and your knowledge and understanding all these things, you can re-wright some of john verses and we can correct john when we see him.


Something like this.


2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist, (except for the Jews)

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (except for the Jews)

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son(except for the Jews)

1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. (except for the Jews)

 

[zone]

Zone, Just because you disagree with the view someone espouses does not give you license to be disrespectful (calling someone by their real name rather then their user name etc…) or to LIE in order to misrepresent the view being espoused so you can falsely claim you have proven it wrong! Doing so only serves to hurt your credibility by demonstrating that you are not capable of providing an honest evaluation of the view being espoused. So let’s have a look at one (no need to beat a dead horse and provide multiple examples) of ofyour statements and expose the lie you are promoting.

From post 31 this thread:


Show us where Therapon said that Jews don’t need Jesus? You can’t because he didn’t say it, nor does his post imply that. No where does Therapon say that the Jews don’t need Jesus as you falsely claim (I.E. LIE). Regardless of whether or not one is intentionally or unintentionally misrepresenting what someone else is saying does not change the fact that the misrepresentation is a lie. Therapon has explained it is not a case of the sovereignly blinded Jew not needing Jesus (as you falsely rrepresent his view to be) but instead a case of them coming to know Jesus and being born again through the only Scriptures they are allowed to see, the Old Testament. It’s not really all that difficult to understand but it does require one to be intellectually honest when evaluating what Scripture says instead of blindly following the doctrines of men or leaning on private interpretations.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So clearly, all must be born again in order to see the kingdom of God. This includes everybody not just those who lived after the crucifixion. Even Old testament saints like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses had to be born again. That is why Christ told Nicodemus before the crucifixion:
Joh 3:7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Regardless of whether one is Jew or Gentile (by birth), or their position on the timeline (pre or post crucifixion) if they are to see the kingdom of God they must be born again. In today’s world (year 2013), almost all (not all) of us our allowed to see the truth of the Gospel and as a result must choose to accept or reject the gift of salvation based upon that knowledge. The reason I said almost all of us is because part (not all) of the Jews, have been sovereignly blinded by God until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and as a result that select group of Jews are not allowed to see the gospel. So in the case of those select Jews (once again, not all Jews were blinded this only applies to those sovereignly blinded) that have been sovereignly blinded by God, we must ask are they in transgression by failing to recognize the truth of Christ’s first advent and the gospel? Of course not because where there is no law there is no transgression.
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
As Romans 4:15 tells us where there is no law there is no transgression, so for the Jews that have been given the spirit of slumber (not all Jews only those given the spirit of slumber by God until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in) there is no transgression because there is no law that requires them to accept or reject the first advent of Christ and the gospel based on what the New Testament teaches. Instead the only method of salvation available to the select group of Jews that have been sovereignly blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in is by returning to the Old Testament and coming to know Christ and being born again just as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses were.

1Co 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea: And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea: And did all eat the same spiritual meat: And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

If the sovereignly blinded can’t come to know Christ and be born again through the only Scriptures they are allowed to see, the Old Testament, then what is the reason behind provoking them to jealousy? It isn’t so that they accept something they are sovereignly blinded to, but instead to make them turn to Christ through the only Scriptures they are allowed to see and come to know Christ and be born again just Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the other Old Testament saints did. (providing God a way to be true to His word and keep the everlasting covenant alive, in addition their blindness opens the door for the New Covenant providing God with a second witness).

Now please be intellectually honest and provide a yes or no answer to a couple questions.
Aren’t all required to be born again to see the kingdom of God?
Are there enemies of the gospel that are elect?
Did God make an everlasting covenant with the Jews?

These will require a bit more then a yes or no.
Zone can you provide a Scripturally sound argument that shows how one can be an enemy of the gospel yet still be elect? Can you provide a Scripturally sound explanation how the everlasting covenant God made with the Jews is everlasting, if there are no Jews still observing that covenant?

Are you willing to address the actual issue in an effort to find the truth? How does mocking, ridiculing, being disrespectful or misrepresenting (I.E. lying) promote a productive discussion? I wonder who would want you to continue using the tactics you’ve been using.


Col 4:6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

Is being disrespectful to Therapon (by using his real name instead of his user name or mocking him) doing as the above verse instructs? Is misrepresenting (I.E. lying) doing as the above verse instructs? I find it impossible to believe the tactics and disrespect you use are inspired by God or that God would want you to continue behaving in such a manner.
It is your right to disagree and even argue the point. But at least be intellectually honest and base your argument on what is actually being said and not some LIE (regardless of whether the lie is intentional or unintentional) that you are perpetuating about his view.

JEWS DON'T STUDY MOSES.
THEIR RELIGION IS THE BABYLONIAN TALMUD​

JEWS TODAY AREN'T ISRAELITES.

JEWS TODAY AREN'T 'BLINDED' BY GOD FOR THE GENTILES TO COME IN. THAT WAS ALREADY FULFILLED.

PUT DOWN YOUR SOCFIELD BIBLE, QUIT WATCHING TELEVANGELISTS.

or not...i don't care what you do.
be ellis' disciple if you want to.

i've already done the homework on ellis' stuff. go do it yourself.​

 

[doulos]

talk about the "the lie you are promoting" you say

Maybe with your help and wisdom and your knowledge and understanding all these things, you can re-wright some of john verses and we can correct john when we see him.


Something like this.


2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist, (except for the Jews)

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (except for the Jews)

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son(except for the Jews)

1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. (except for the Jews)

peterT
You can misrepresent the view being espoused all you want. Nothing I said indicates a need to rewrite Scripture nor is ther any reaon to include all Jews in the view being discussed. We are talking about a specific group of Jews, those that have been given a spirit of slumber until the fulness of the Gentiles come in.
Do you understand Rom4:15?
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
How can a sovereignly blinded Jew be in transgression in light of Rom4:15?
Please provide a Scripturally sound explanation of how one can be an enemy of the gospel while still being elect?
How can God's everlasting covenant with the Jews still be everlasting if there are not at least some Jews honoring it?
You know my friend if all you do is look for a reaon to condemn the Jews then that is all you will find. It takes an open heart to seek the truth, not a closed mind that refuses to look at anything other then the doctrines they have been taught.

Do you have anything constructive to add to the discussion or do you prefer to continue blindly criticizing a view you have not taken the time to understand?

 

[Abiding]

Zone, Just because you disagree with the view someone espouses does not give you license to be disrespectful (calling someone by their real name rather then their user name etc…) or to LIE in order to misrepresent the view being espoused so you can falsely claim you have proven it wrong! Doing so only serves to hurt your credibility by demonstrating that you are not capable of providing an honest evaluation of the view being espoused. So let’s have a look at one (no need to beat a dead horse and provide multiple examples) of ofyour statements and expose the lie you are promoting.

From post 31 this thread:


Show us where Therapon said that Jews don’t need Jesus? You can’t because he didn’t say it, nor does his post imply that. No where does Therapon say that the Jews don’t need Jesus as you falsely claim (I.E. LIE). Regardless of whether or not one is intentionally or unintentionally misrepresenting what someone else is saying does not change the fact that the misrepresentation is a lie. Therapon has explained it is not a case of the sovereignly blinded Jew not needing Jesus (as you falsely rrepresent his view to be) but instead a case of them coming to know Jesus and being born again through the only Scriptures they are allowed to see, the Old Testament. It’s not really all that difficult to understand but it does require one to be intellectually honest when evaluating what Scripture says instead of blindly following the doctrines of men or leaning on private interpretations.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So clearly, all must be born again in order to see the kingdom of God. This includes everybody not just those who lived after the crucifixion. Even Old testament saints like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses had to be born again. That is why Christ told Nicodemus before the crucifixion:
Joh 3:7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Regardless of whether one is Jew or Gentile (by birth), or their position on the timeline (pre or post crucifixion) if they are to see the kingdom of God they must be born again. In today’s world (year 2013), almost all (not all) of us our allowed to see the truth of the Gospel and as a result must choose to accept or reject the gift of salvation based upon that knowledge. The reason I said almost all of us is because part (not all) of the Jews, have been sovereignly blinded by God until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and as a result that select group of Jews are not allowed to see the gospel. So in the case of those select Jews (once again, not all Jews were blinded this only applies to those sovereignly blinded) that have been sovereignly blinded by God, we must ask are they in transgression by failing to recognize the truth of Christ’s first advent and the gospel? Of course not because where there is no law there is no transgression.
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
As Romans 4:15 tells us where there is no law there is no transgression, so for the Jews that have been given the spirit of slumber (not all Jews only those given the spirit of slumber by God until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in) there is no transgression because there is no law that requires them to accept or reject the first advent of Christ and the gospel based on what the New Testament teaches. Instead the only method of salvation available to the select group of Jews that have been sovereignly blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in is by returning to the Old Testament and coming to know Christ and being born again just as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses were.

1Co 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea: And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea: And did all eat the same spiritual meat: And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

If the sovereignly blinded can’t come to know Christ and be born again through the only Scriptures they are allowed to see, the Old Testament, then what is the reason behind provoking them to jealousy? It isn’t so that they accept something they are sovereignly blinded to, but instead to make them turn to Christ through the only Scriptures they are allowed to see and come to know Christ and be born again just Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the other Old Testament saints did. (providing God a way to be true to His word and keep the everlasting covenant alive, in addition their blindness opens the door for the New Covenant providing God with a second witness).

Now please be intellectually honest and provide a yes or no answer to a couple questions.
Aren’t all required to be born again to see the kingdom of God?
Are there enemies of the gospel that are elect?
Did God make an everlasting covenant with the Jews?

These will require a bit more then a yes or no.
Zone can you provide a Scripturally sound argument that shows how one can be an enemy of the gospel yet still be elect? Can you provide a Scripturally sound explanation how the everlasting covenant God made with the Jews is everlasting, if there are no Jews still observing that covenant?

Are you willing to address the actual issue in an effort to find the truth? How does mocking, ridiculing, being disrespectful or misrepresenting (I.E. lying) promote a productive discussion? I wonder who would want you to continue using the tactics you’ve been using.


Col 4:6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

Is being disrespectful to Therapon (by using his real name instead of his user name or mocking him) doing as the above verse instructs? Is misrepresenting (I.E. lying) doing as the above verse instructs? I find it impossible to believe the tactics and disrespect you use are inspired by God or that God would want you to continue behaving in such a manner.
It is your right to disagree and even argue the point. But at least be intellectually honest and base your argument on what is actually being said and not some LIE (regardless of whether the lie is intentional or unintentional) that you are perpetuating about his view.

Wow you really did that didnt you? Called out on someone and said their credibility was shot
Then you made a page of heretical nonsence based on nothing but thin air....trying to use the bible
with it.

Well i wonder where your credibility is.

Homework for you should be. What is a partial hardening and why?
What the fullness of the gentiles really means....clue it isnt a number.
Then look for a verse that says theres more than one way.
good luck

 

[Abiding]

wish i didnt type so slow.
or is it i think slow? whatever

 

[Abiding]

peterT
You can misrepresent the view being espoused all you want. Nothing I said indicates a need to rewrite Scripture nor is ther any reaon to include all Jews in the view being discussed. We are talking about a specific group of Jews, those that have been given a spirit of slumber until the fulness of the Gentiles come in.
Do you understand Rom4:15?
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
How can a sovereignly blinded Jew be in transgression in light of Rom4:15?
Please provide a Scripturally sound explanation of how one can be an enemy of the gospel while still being elect?
How can God's everlasting covenant with the Jews still be everlasting if there are not at least some Jews honoring it?
You know my friend if all you do is look for a reaon to condemn the Jews then that is all you will find. It takes an open heart to seek the truth, not a closed mind that refuses to look at anything other then the doctrines they have been taught.

Do you have anything constructive to add to the discussion or do you prefer to continue blindly criticizing a view you have not taken the time to understand?

Do you understand what the fulness of the gentiles means?
Apparently not

 

[doulos]

JEWS DON'T STUDY MOSES.
THEIR RELIGION IS THE BABYLONIAN TALMUD​

JEWS TODAY AREN'T ISRAELITES.

JEWS TODAY AREN'T 'BLINDED' BY GOD FOR THE GENTILES TO COME IN. THAT WAS ALREADY FULFILLED.

PUT DOWN YOUR SOCFIELD BIBLE, QUIT WATCHING TELEVANGELISTS.

or not...i don't care what you do.
be ellis' disciple if you want to.

i've already done the homework on ellis' stuff. go do it yourself.​

Are there still Gentiles coming to the Lord? If so then how can you possibly say the fulness of the Gentiles has come in and the spirit of slumber has been lifted?


ROFLMHO

LOL baseless accusations I have never used A Scofield bible, nor do I watch televangelist. Never heard of a televangelist promoting the view I hold, and I certainly dont subscribe to the dispensational view promoted in the Scofield bible. Haven't you come to realize that your continued misrepresentation of the views others espouse only hurts your credibility and shows your incapable of providing an honest objective evaluation of what others say?.

I see you are still avoiding the issue. Why not answer these questions I have asked you before? Is it because you do not have a Scripturally sound answer? Please allow me to ask again maybe this time you will be courteous enough to answer.
Aren’t all required to be born again to see the kingdom of God?
Are there enemies of the gospel that are elect?
Did God make an everlasting covenant with the Jews?
Zone can you provide a Scripturally sound argument that shows how one can be an enemy of the gospel yet still be elect? Can you provide a Scripturally sound explanation how the everlasting covenant God made with the Jews is everlasting, if there are no Jews still observing that covenant?

Oh almost forgot are you willing to show us where Therapon said that Jews don't need Jesus? Still waiting for you to clear up that misrepresention (LIE)) you persist in promoting.

 

[doulos]

Do you understand what the fulness of the gentiles means?
Apparently not

Sure I do but apparently many don't. There are still Gentiles coming to the Lord on a daily basis so obviously the fulness of the Gentiles has not come in. Some try to say that it came in during the first century but that can't be true unless people stopped coming to the Lord in the first century. Did people stop coming to the Lord in the first century.

Yes I understand partial but apparently many here dont because they lump all Jews into the same category despite the fact that only part of the Jews have been given a spirit of slumber. No need to look for a verse that says there is more then one way, we all know that everyone from Adam to the present day must be born again to see the kingdom of God. Taking into consideration Rom4:15 the question really boils down to why can't a Jew that has been given a spirit of slumber until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in be born again by coming to know Christ through the only Scriptures they area allowed to see, the Old Testament? If it was good enough for Abraham, Isaac, Moses and other saints why isn't it good enough for the sovereignly blinded Jew?


As for as pointing out that one destroys there credibility when they misrepresent (I.E. LIE) about what someone else said, what would you call it? Enhancing their credibility?
As far as the view being espoused being in error maybe you would like to try your hand at giving us a Scripturally sound explanation of how one can be an enemy of the gospel yet still be elect. Ot maybe you could actually use Scripture to prove the view wrong.