Reformed Theology - Penal Substitution and the Imputed Righteousness of Christ

[Skinski7]

Ariel Black

Skinski Red


anyone else notice that the explanation totally skipped over the words "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us," When God chose to send Jesus Christ to redeem mankind from sin it was not based off of any works of righteousness we did. God sent His only begotten Son because He loved the world.

Can that verse be used to support the notion that one can be actively engaged in unrighteousness and be saved at the same time? For you to asserting this "half-truth" accusation surely that is the view you are trying to put forth, at least indirectly? If I am in error then what is Tit 3:5 saying that refutes what Tommy stated, making it a "half-truth" ?

I agree that the Holy Spirit does the cleansing. however I do so hate half truths. Where is the half truth? If one does not elaborate on every single detail are you not straining out a gnat in order to attribute a "half-truth." That is what it looks like to me. Instead of dealing with the overall theme of something you nitpick anything you can find in order to discredit that which is presented.

totally ignoring scripture to place false teachings in instead: Be specific. What false teaching?

"Repentance and faith Proven by deeds." .... No true Faith is not proven by deeds but proven by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that leads people into righteousness and away from sinful behavior. it is that GOD gave us His Holy Spirit that we are made righteous not because of our deeds. Genuine repentance is proven by deeds. Repentance means "change of mind" and thus a genuine change of mind necessitates a change in behaviour. If an adulterer repents of his adultery then the cessation of adultery PROVES the mind really changed.

yes when you have a true and living faith you will have good deeds but the BIBLE clearly says we are NOT saved by those deeds or those works of righteousness. That's right, good deeds and works of righteousness do not save you. Yet a good tree will manifest good fruit, so again repentance is proven by deeds and those who are truly born of God will produce the fruit of righteousness in their lives. They will not produce the fruit of unrighteousness (from the heart). Modern theology teaches that BOTH FRUITS are produced and it is also very common that being "carnal and sold under sin" is the present Christian walk.

A true Christian is PURE IN HEART. If they are not pure in heart then they have not been redeemed from ALL INIQUITY and are therefore NOT SAVED. It's very simple.


that is not teaching that we should NOT do them, we definitely should. HOwever WHY we do them is MORE important than the outward actions because it shows an inward purity of heart. When a pastor answers the question that a particular sin DOES NOT have to be forsaken in order that one be saved then what is he teaching? Is he teaching inward purity of heart? There is no possible way.

An individual who is inwardly pure does not engage in the sins of the flesh. They have crucified their flesh with the passions and desires and thus RULE OVER the temptation to sin because they abide in Christ and His power.

we do NOT do them to earn God's approval but because out of love we know we have God's approval already. Outward righteousness is simply a natural manifestation of inward righteousness. Approval has nothing to do with it, approval by God is rooted in simply DOING HIS WILL. One comes into a state of doing the will of God through repentance and faith and subsequently being cleansed by the blood.

because JESUS died for us. He was propiation of our sins. He cleansed us with His blood. He sent us the HOly Spirit so that with our spirit we might call out ABBA Father. The cleansing is CONDITIONAL on walking in the light as He is in the light. Modern theology generally teaches that the cleansing is conditional on simply "trusting" apart from "doing" and that is the error in a nutshell.

that is the gospel message.

You are a sinner, you need to repent which means FORSAKE rebellion. yOu need to fall on your knees and pray and study and truly understand what GOD has done for you through the death and resurrection of Christ. Understand what the NEW covenant is and how it puts to death the Law of sin and death it is through the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ that we are set free from the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2). In other words it is MANDATORY that one abides in Christ and one cannot abide in Christ unless they "lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness.". how the Old covenant has faded away. How the Law is a tutor until you are brought to Christ and filled with His Holy Spirit and How His Holy Spirit will lead you into the fulfilment of God's laws. How by walking with the Spirit you will gain the fruits of love, joy, peace, gentleness, loyalty, faithfulness, and self control. how diligently you will add to your faith wisdom, brotherly kindness and true love as God loves the world.

I pray for those new to the faith that they truly learn the GOSPEL message and not the lies so many pretend is God's Truth.

Read your Bible, pray, allow God's Holy Spirit to testify to the truth.

 

[zone]

Martin Luther was a false teacher whose theology was rooted in the writings of Augustine of Hippo.

but the gapper gang freely relies on Hermas; Tertullian; Clemente and the Gnostics.
LOL.

 

[SarahM777]

Taking it one step further Paul is in essence is stating that God's punishment for sin was poured out on Christ.

 

[Tommy4Christ]

Calling Evil Good and Good Evil

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isa5:20
The Bible paints a Sharp Contrast between the Righteous and the Wicked: A Righteous man declares his honesty openly, But the witness of the unrighteous is deceitful Prov12:10. However this Distinction has been transformed into a hundred shades of gray in the present day Professing Christian Churches. They take great pleasure impugning the Righteous and casting dispersions on the Pure of heart. But this is nothing new among those ‘Wise’ in their own eyes. For foolish and inconsiderate men, who have neither wisdom nor instruction, mock and deride the righteous, being eager to exalt themselves in their own conceits!

David said: ‘They who repaid me evil for good, Slandered me because I pursue Righteousness. And they threw away my love as though it was a stinking corpse!’ Ps37:21. Those who hold forth the Word of life, shining the Light of Reconciliation with God through Repentance and Faith Proven by Deeds, are often despised by the Self-professed Christians who delight in their filthy rags, desperately wicked, wretched salvation in sin refuge. In their minds NONE are Righteous (Rom3:10) nor is there a person on earth who does not sin! (Ecc7:20) In their realm the very idea of a Righteous person doing the Right thing by faith working by love with a heart made Pure by Obedience to the faith is unattainable. They see all ‘Christians’ defiled to the core, but ‘Saved’ by Grace and ‘Covered’ by imputed righteousness.

The deceitfulness of sin, springing up within their hearts has defiled their understanding (Heb12:15) As the Bible says: ‘A person without discernment {between good & evil} persuades himself to mingle with the unruly.’ Prov14:16. That’s why among the incredulous Professed Christians NOTHING is Pure! They see everyone as a mirror image of themselves and anyone who denies it is a Liar.
To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. Titus1:15-16
The Righteous have always been Slandered and disdained by the professing religious establishment who persist in sin. Paul said to them; ‘Am I become your enemy by telling you the truth?’ This is often the response from those who use such passages as Rom3:10, Ecc7:20 as an excuse NOT to pursue Purity of heart or Cleansing from inward sin. ‘Who can have a Pure heart or say they are clean from sin’ they will proclaim, as quoting the rhetorical question in Proverbs 20:9, as though Scripture deems human Purity impossible. Yet the Lord Cries loudly; ‘BLESSED are the PURE in heart for they shall SEE God!’ Mt5:8 And ‘Without holiness (purity) NO ONE will see the Lord! Heb12:14

In the Bible the theme is; ‘He who Judges the unrighteous as righteous and the righteous as unrighteous is unclean and an abomination to God’ Prov17:16. BUT isn’t this Exactly what the Fallacy of Transferred (or imputed) Righteousness does to the people who ‘receive’ it as truth? They remain desperately wicked in heart by their own admission and offer God only filthy rags of sin. They live contrary to God’s Commands and call good evil and evil good. The FEAR of the Lord is to HATE Sin! Ps97:10, NOT glory in it as though shameful behavior keeps you humble.

“Evil people hate the Wisdom and instruction of God and CHOOSE Not to fear the Lord” Prov1:31. In this Professing Christians are exonerated from wrong doing by the fallacy of ‘inbred’ sin. BUT the Bible says that man sins by the wrong use of his free will, NOT by a corrupt nature within. A person will do evil things with contempt if he ‘believes’ within himself he lacks the ability to resist the deceptions of sin. Prov13:11. This also will cause him to devise evil things and cast them as dispersions on the Righteous. Prov14:22. Thus again to the defiled (in heart) and incredulous by choice NOTHING is Pure!
Scripture assures those who follow the Lord in Purity, Sincerity and Love; ‘All who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution’ 2Tim3:12. From the beginning this has been so, the Professed have always sought Justification in their sins. WHY did Cain slay his brother? Because Abel’s Deeds were Righteous and his evil! (1Jh3:12-13, So do not marvel brethren if the world hates you!) The Lord tells us:

Blessed are you when men hate you, And when they exclude you, And revile you, and cast out your name as evil, For the Son of Man’s sake. Rejoice in that day and leap for joy! For indeed your reward is great in heaven, For in like manner their fathers did to the prophets. Lk6:22-23
Yet in Professing Christian gatherings where everyone is a ‘sinner saved by grace’, admittedly wretched to the core, the exact opposite is true. The World LOVES them and they Love the World! But to their audaciousness the Lord says: Woe to you when all men speak well of you, For so did their fathers to the false prophets. Lk6:26 But they Judge Righteousness (doing what is right) as Un-Righteousness, in their minds----
SELF-Righteousness! If a person with a Purified heart is ‘made sad’ because sin is abounding and excused by the Doctrines of men, they will devise more evil against him and conjure further false Judgments to impugn his character and strengthen the hand of the wicked. Ezk13:22
Because with lies you have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and you have strengthened the hands of the wicked, so that he does not turn from his wicked way to save his life.
It’s a LIE to Promise the sinner Peace, healing and prosperity while he stubbornly refused to Cease from evil and Learn to do good! Isa1:16. The Pulpit Pundits keep crying Peace, Peace when there is no Peace in their attempts to slight the sins of the people with words that do not profit. (Jer6:14, 7:8-10) Sins of fornication, adultery, drunkenness, uncleanness and lust abound among them and STILL they Come as ‘the Lord’s own’ and sit before their altars and listen to the lovely songs and pleasurable soothing words believing that nothing evil will come upon them although they refuse to DO what the Lord has Commanded. (Ezk33:31-32, Jer23:17)
They continually say to those who despise Me, The LORD has said, “You shall have peace”And to everyone who walks according to the dictates of his own heart, they say, ‘No evil shall come upon you’.
The Bible Says that Nothing unrighteous can ever be Pleasing to the Righteous Prov14:23. This is why they cannot abide in darkness or condone immoral behavior. SIN is a Reproach to any people, Prov14:14, and those who excuse it have denied the Truth! Quote: ‘To fall is not as grievous as to lie where we have fallen, nor to be wounded so dreadful as after wounds to REFUSE healing’ The Lord asks you to use your human Senses of Sight, Hearing and Understanding to turn be converted to Him that He may HEAL you! Matt13:14-15. In that Man LEARNS to Do Good and seeks after the Light of Understanding through the Spirit of Wisdom, understanding, counsel, might, knowledge, godliness and fear of God. (Isa11:2-3)
By accepting His gracious invitation to forsake your vises and sinful passions and desires in repentance (from which you lack spiritual discernment to know the truth) you will find this Healing with the Crown of Righteousness and keep a Straight Path of understanding and knowledge. (Prov9:5-6, 2Tim4:8, Gal5:24, Rom6:4-6)
Suffering for Righteousness sake is part of Counting the Cost of Discipleship. (Lk14f:28) To the True Saints of God it is considered a Badge of honor to suffer persecution for doing well and it is often at the hands of a Religious Establishment bent on our destruction because we expose their sins. The Bible speaks much of sharing in the suffering of Christ, who was also despised by the entrenched establishment and crucified.
For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, Phil1:29
And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you are blessed. “And do not be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled.” But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 1Pet3:13-17
But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Phil2:7-11
We Follow in the Steps of the Savior when the Professing Religious establishment World hates us!
If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. He who hates Me hates My Father also. If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, ‘They hated Me without a cause. Jn15:18-25
Understand that they called the Master Beelzebub so how MUCH more will they call His Servants the same, Matt10:25. Further evidence that the present ‘saved in sin’ establishment is bogus can be seen in what Jesus told His Disciples would happen to them by Preaching the Gospel. (and it certainly has absolutely NO resemblance to the festive religious environment the professed attend to)
Be assured anyone who Preaches the Full Council of God will:
Be hated by the world for His Name’s sake
Persecuted and despised, rejected, ostracized, especially by the Religious establishment
Family members will reject you
They will call you the devil
Proverbs 14:12, 16:25 says there is a way that seems right to man but its end is the way of death. Such is the Wide Road professing Christians take who impugn the character of the Righteous. The Bible says that only ‘sinners’ pursue the righteous in such manner as to find fault in them. (Ps36:32) The works of the Righteous produce LIFE (freedom from sin, purity of heart) only the ungodly produce iniquity, Ps10:17. When you tell people they are saved by Grace yet remain desperately wicked in heart, wretched to the core (sold under sin!) and can never be any better than a pile of filthy rags, you DENY the WORD of God!
For if ‘Christians’ are nothing more than a people addicted to various lust of the flesh the Bible condemns as sin of disqualification, then true Righteousness is a fairy tale and the devil wins! Honestly isn’t sin a reproach on any people as the Bible says? How can anyone of right conscience continue to sit under a Gospel that has produced such sordid results as we see in the present day churches? People are crying out in the misery that sin has wrought in their lives and the Church can only offer them a Magic Cloak and vain prayer that God will clean them up if they faithfully attend their focus groups and read the latest books. NO Redemption, NO Release from Bondage, NO Purging the conscience from the dead works of the flesh; Just a Vain assurance that God has made Provision and understands your struggles.
Paul said such vile things as lust, uncleanness and filthiness of the flesh should NOT EVEN be Named among those who Profess Christ! (Eph5:5-6) YET the addiction to internet Pornography is so rampant among Pastors and professing Christian men that organizations such as Promise Keepers can fill football Stadiums with attendees wallowing in it! NEVER are they told to REPENT, Come Clean, TURN from such things before it destroys their souls in Perdition; Books, CD’s and Hype are NOT going to Save them! It’s a hopeless addiction and vicious circle of repeated failure with the only remedy True Repentance. On top of this you have Professed Christians involved in every Kind of vile and unclean behavior, loving the world, dead toward God, making excuses all day long about inability, sin nature, magic covers, not of works, and the Pastors in full agreement. No Wonder they Call good evil and evil good for they DO things all day long that are HATFUL to God and take Pleasure in themselves and others doing even worse! Genuine Spiritual Discernment is FAR From the Foolish! Prov15:21
Folly is joy to him who is destitute of discernment, But a man of understanding walks uprightly.standingthegap.org

Food for thought, as you come against the few righteous ones preaching the truth!

 

[mark54]

Taking it one step further Paul is in essence is stating that God's punishment for sin was poured out on Christ.

I have heard it said that Christ died for our sin, and to break the power of sin
The power of sin is the law(1Cor15:56)

The power of sin can only be broken therefore if Christ died for all our sin, I believe that is the core of Paul's Gospel of Grace

 

[Ariel82]

you obviously haven't read very many sermons from Luther. here is part of one to show you that you are false in accuse Luther of NOT teaching repentance or purity of heart.

Martin Luther did not teach the necessity of heart purity nor did he teach that the flesh with the passions and desires are crucified once and for all in repentance.

the rest of your words are too full of hate and venom to even respond to.

[6] The second kind of righteousness is our proper righteousness, not because we alone work it, but because we work with that first and alien righteousness. This is that manner of life spent profitably in good works, in the first place, in slaying the flesh and crucifying the desires with respect to the self, of which we read in Gal. 5:24, “And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.” In the second place, this righteousness consists in love to one’s neighbor, and in the third place, in meekness and fear towards God. The Apostle is full of references to these, as is all the rest of Scripture. He briefly summarizes everything, however, in Titus 2:12, “ In this world let us live soberly (pertaining to crucifying one’s own flesh), justly (referring to one’s neighbor), and devoutly (relating to God).”


[7] This righteousness is the product of the righteousness of the first type, actually its fruit and consequence, for we read in Gal. 5:22, “But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.” For because the works mentioned are works of men, it is obvious that in this passage a spiritual man is called “spirit.” In John 3:6 we read, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” This righteousness goes on to complete the first for it ever strives to do away with the old Adam and to destroy the body of sin. Therefore it hates itself and loves its neighbor; it does not seek its own good, but that of another, and in this its whole way of living consists. For in that it hates itself and does not seek its own, it crucifies the flesh. Because it seeks the good of another, it works love. Thus in each sphere it does God’s will living soberly with self, justly with neighbor, devoutly toward God.


[8] This righteousness follows the example of Christ in this respect and is transformed into his likeness. It is precisely this that Christ requires. Just as he himself did all things for us, not seeking his own good but ours only—and in this he was most obedient to God the Father—so he desires that we also should set the same example for our neighbors.


[9] We read in Rom. 6:19 that this righteousness is set opposite our own actual sin: “For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification.” Therefore through the first righteousness arises the voice of the bridegroom who says to the soul, “I am yours,” but through the second comes the voice of the bride who answers, “I am yours.” Then the marriage is consummated; it becomes strong and complete in accordance with the Song of Solomon 2:16, “My beloved is mine and I am his.” Then the soul no longer seeks to be righteous in and for itself, but it has Christ as its righteousness and therefore seeks only the welfare of others. Therefore the Lord of the Synagogue threatens through the prophet “And I will make to cease from the cities of Judah and from the streets of Jerusalem the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride” [Jer 7:34].


[10] This is what the text we are now considering says: “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus” [Phil. 2:5]. This means you should be as inclined and disposed toward one another as you see Christ was disposed toward you. How? Thus, surely, that “though he was in the form of God, [he] did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of servant” [Phil. 2:6-7]. The term “form of God” here does not mean the “essence of God” because Christ never emptied himself of this. Neither can the phrase “form of a servant” be said to mean “human essence.” But the “form of God” is wisdom, power, righteousness, goodness—and freedom too; for Christ was a free, powerful, wise man, subject to none of the vices or sins to which all other men are subject. He was pre-eminent in such attributes as are particularly proper to the form of God. Yet he was not haughty in that form; he did not please himself; nor did he disdain and despise those who were enslaved and subjected to various evils.

"So what is the truth, your rhetoric or is it the words of Scripture?"

James 3
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. [SUP]15 [/SUP]This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

I would ask for you to stop your rants for a minute and pray.

for you have believe lies about others. you have slandered and accused others of believing things they do not.

You say there are two types of sin. I agree.

I say there are two types of righteousness. but you don't even bother to find out what is referred to'
instead you are not able to tame your tongue.

James 3
[SUP]9 [/SUP]With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

standing and state, atonement and sanctification
Is there anyway skinski you can separate these things
and quit attacking foundational truths?

Titus 3:5

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Soooo right . . . our standing [fellowship] in the family of God fluctuates but our sonship [state] remains. It's just like a regular family in which a child may do something in error and is grounded. Their standing [fellowship] is interrupted but they remain a son or daughter and NOTHING can separate them from the love and forgiveness of their family.

For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Skinski7]

Sarah Black

Skinski Red





Once again you have taken scripture out of context Out of context? Rom 3:25 says "PAST SINS", 1Pet 1:9 refers to "OLD SINS." Where in the Bible does it teach that future sins are forgiven in advance?

Just because you "claim" something is out of context does not mean it is.

Romans 3

[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.[SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith in[SUP][h][/SUP] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,[SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,[SUP]24 [/SUP]and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.[SUP]25 [/SUP]God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[SUP][i][/SUP] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—[SUP]26 [/SUP]he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.


Forbearance

Definition

1 : a refraining from the enforcement of something (as a debt, right, or obligation) that is due

2
: the act of forbearing

3
: the quality of being forbearing : leniency


God had left the sins committed beforehand (Before that time) unpunished to show His righteousness in the present time when Christ was crucified.

Forbearance yes? How does that prove future sins are forgiven in advance?

It is through the forbearance of God that he PASSES OVER the sins which were PREVIOUSLY COMMITTED. Past sins, not future.

The man in 2Pet 1:9 was not purged of his "future" sins. He was purged of his "past" sins.

Look at this...

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.


Is it "PAST SINS or FUTURE SINS" that are being referenced in that passage as being made "white as snow" ?

If it is future sins then why the need to put away evil? Future sins being forgiven in advance does not make sense.

You have to throw reason out the window in order to argue in favour of such foolishness.

The Bible teaches repentance for remission. How does that work if sins are remitted in advance? It doesn't!


The truth is God deals with people IN THE PRESENT. We come before God in broken godly sorrow in the present FORSAKING OUR REBELLION and God forgives us of our past evil behaviour. He forgives our PAST TRANSGRESSION.

There is no forgiveness if you go back to your rebellion next week. If you go back to your rebellion next week then you bring condemnation back on your head. You would have to do your first works again in order to be reconciled. This is what the Bible teaches.

Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

 

[Skinski7]

My remark added in red.

Soooo right . . . our standing [fellowship] in the family of God fluctuates but our sonship [state] remains. It's just like a regular family in which a child may do something in error and is grounded. Their standing [fellowship] is interrupted but they remain a son or daughter and NOTHING YE CAN SIN AND SURELY NOT DIE can separate them from the love and forgiveness of their family.

For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Sin won't separate you? You really believe that? God won't render to you according to your deeds?

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

 

[Tommy4Christ]

Darkness and light do not mix! Doing what is right isnt being self righteous!

A saving faith walks and obeys the righteous requirements of the law, not make excuses why they do not have to obey them becase Jesus magically did it for them!

You obey from the heart, you keep obeying to stay on the narrow road to life!

Faith is a work, from the obedient heart that has been made pure through the repentance process, Jesus said to DO, many, many times, not as a suggestion, but Manditory for His true saints!

You must endure to the end to be saved, salvation is not a given, we are on probation, as we fight the good fight of faith, abstaining from all evil, sin, and wilfull disobedience!

Less our faith becomes shipwrecked!

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[SarahM777]

Sarah Black

Skinski Red

It is through the forbearance of God that he PASSES OVER the sins which were PREVIOUSLY COMMITTED. Past sins, not future.

The man in 2Pet 1:9 was not purged of his "future" sins. He was purged of his "past" sins.

Look at this...

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.


Is it "PAST SINS or FUTURE SINS" that are being referenced in that passage as being made "white as snow" ?

If it is future sins then why the need to put away evil? Future sins being forgiven in advance does not make sense.

You have to throw reason out the window in order to argue in favour of such foolishness.

The Bible teaches repentance for remission. How does that work if sins are remitted in advance? It doesn't!


The truth is God deals with people IN THE PRESENT. We come before God in broken godly sorrow in the present FORSAKING OUR REBELLION and God forgives us of our past evil behaviour. He forgives our PAST TRANSGRESSION.

There is no forgiveness if you go back to your rebellion next week. If you go back to your rebellion next week then you bring condemnation back on your head. You would have to do your first works again in order to be reconciled. This is what the Bible teaches.

Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Because Skinski,

By your logic if Christ died ONLY for past sins then there is no way you could ever be forgiven,if only sins committed before Christ died could ever be forgiven,because you were not born before Christ died but long afterwards. Every sin you ever committed was in going to be in the future not the past. And if that is the case there is no way you could ever be forgiven for "future" sins.

 

[Ariel82]

wow your family life must be something to be mourned if you don't know the difference between being grounded and thinking you've been disowned.

 

[mark54]

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. [SUP]25[/SUP]Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.[SUP]26 [/SUP]Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself

Heb9:23-26

 

[Ariel82]

Skinski's problem is that he doesn't understand Adam's sin and its relationship to the rest of humanity.

... among other things..

 

[Skinski7]

but the gapper gang freely relies on Hermas; Tertullian; Clemente and the Gnostics.
LOL.

I think I have quoted Tertullian once and have alluded to his teaching on the Trinity another time.

While I think reading early church writings can be a good thing to gain an understanding in regards to what they believed it is the Scripture in which sound doctrine is established.

I don't see you elaborate with the Scripture much especially in regards to what I post. I post voluminous amounts of Scripture in order to establish that I am not blowing smoke.

All you seem to do is scoff by making snide and inaccurate comments. I saw in that other thread you have now attempted to paint me as an adherent to the philosophy of the Ancient Mysteries, namely one of its latter manifestations which is the Kabbala.

I would like to see you elaborate clearly on where the "Imputed Righteousness of Christ" is taught in Scripture.

Why didn't Jesus teach it anywhere?

 

[mark54]

While I think reading early church writings can be a good thing to gain an understanding in regards to what they believed it is the Scripture in which sound doctrine is established.

?

Wow, I agree with you

 

[Skinski7]

Because Skinski,

By your logic if Christ died ONLY for past sins then there is no way you could ever be forgiven,if only sins committed before Christ died could ever be forgiven,because you were not born before Christ died but long afterwards. Every sin you ever committed was in going to be in the future not the past. And if that is the case there is no way you could ever be forgiven for "future" sins.

I didn't say future sins "could never be forgiven." I simply stated that future sin is not forgiven in advance.

Again God deals with people in the present. When one approaches God in repentance and faith seeking reconciliation the misconduct is PAST.

A husband does not seek reconciliation with his wife for the adultery he is going to commit the next year does he?

Nor can a husband be reconciled with his wife for an illicit adulterous relationship without FORSAKING the illicit relationship.



Why respond with comments that make assertions of things that I NEVER asserted?

 

[Skinski7]

Skinski's problem is that he doesn't understand Adam's sin and its relationship to the rest of humanity.

... among other things..

I suppose you believe this...

Chapter VI

Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment thereof

I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.[1] This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.[2]
II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God,[3] and so became dead in sin,[4] and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.[5]
III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed;[6] and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.[7]
IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8] and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10]
V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11] and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]
VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto,[13] does in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner,[14] whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God,[15] and curse of the law,[16] and so made subject to death,[17] with all miseries spiritual,[18] temporal,[19] and eternal.[20]

Westminster Confession of Faith


Is that your position?

Do you believe in "sin you will, sin you must" ?

Are you "born" guilty and condemned?


Is this what you perceive that I do not understand regarding Adam's sin and its relationship to the rest of humanity?

 

[Ariel82]

I would like to see you elaborate clearly on where the "Imputed Righteousness of Christ" is taught in Scripture.

Why didn't Jesus teach it anywhere?

there is a whole thread on it.

and it has lots of scriptures.

Jesus does teach it but like many things unless you have the HOLY SPIRIT it will appear foolish to you.

 

[Tommy4Christ]

Yes, God deals with mankind in the present, no way are future sins forgiven in advanced as most reformed doctrines teach, especially when you hold to original sin, imputation, penal, election, etc...