Reformed Theology - Penal Substitution and the Imputed Righteousness of Christ

mark54 · Feb 23, 2013

For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. [SUP]25[/SUP]Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.[SUP]26 [/SUP]Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself

Heb9:23-26

What does the above mean Tommy?

Tommy4Christ · Feb 23, 2013

We walk daily with Jesus, keeping on the narrow road, putting on the full armor of God, and resisting all temptation!

Past sins remain forgiven as you walk in the light, no such thing as walking in the light and dark at the same time you are either walking in the light, cleansed and purged from unrighteousness, or you are in the dark, still IN bondage to sin and disobedience. 1 John 1-7.

Repentance is there, but we know that wilfull rebellion hardens the heart, where in many cases repentance may not be found!

Follow the example of Jesus, not the few saints who fell hard, Jesus was pure and blamless, He paved the way, and gives His saints the power to walk in His steps, but in no way did He do it for you, its not difficult to do, unless you are under the great lie that says you can sin and not die!

Ariel82 · Feb 23, 2013

Skinski7 said:

first time reading it. would have to read it again and pray about it.

I don't read much Luther either. mostly I just read the Bible unless others start talking about other teachings.

doubt that is my position but would have to look at it more closely.

I believe you are born in a world which has sin and death running rampant and that you are influenced by that sin. without God's laws you would see no problem with indulging in the lusts of your flesh and would run amok with selfish pleasures and sins with no regard to God.

no but i've got to make dinner

so maybe I'll find the words or hopefully someone else can explain it to you.

Its all in Romans 5

among other scriptures. thought it was pretty clear, but I guess not.

mark54 · Feb 23, 2013

Tommy4Christ said:

We walk daily with Jesus, keeping on the narrow road, putting on the full armor of God, and resisting all temptation!

Past sins remain forgiven as you walk in the light, no such thing as walking in the light and dark at the same time you are either walking in the light, cleansed and purged from unrighteousness, or you are in the dark, still IN bondage to sin and disobedience. 1 John 1-7.

Repentance is there, but we know that wilfull rebellion hardens the heart, where in many cases repentance may not be found!

Follow the example of Jesus, not the few saints who fell hard, Jesus was pure and blamless, He paved the way, and gives His saints the power to walk in His steps, but in no way did He do it for you, its not difficult to do, unless you are under the great lie that says you can sin and not die!

I take it your above post was not referring to my post to you of the verses quoted from Hebrews 9

Skinski7 · Feb 23, 2013

Abiding said:

This is the whole issue right here isn't it?

You believe in...

Salvation IN sin

Justification IN Rebellion

Yet the Bible teaches this...

2Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

What exactly is escaping the corruption that is in the world through lust? It is right there in the Bible and Peter speaks of it as HAVING already taken place.

1Pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

1Pet 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

What exactly is one no longer living the rest of one's time in the flesh to the lusts of men? What is ceasing from sin?

The Bible does say this...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

What does it mean to crucify the affections and lusts? Could it be related to picking up our cross and DENYING ourselves?

How about these verses...

1 Joh 3
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Standing and state? John writes about MANIFEST CONDUCT there and ties it to whether one is a child of God or a child of the devil. So what exactly is this standing and state you are speaking of? I suspect it is a teaching where one has a "standing" of righteousness and yet can be in a "state" of unrighteousness.

The Gnostics taught "standing and state" because they separated the "deeds done in the flesh" from the "state of the soul" because they believed that "sin was a symptom of the flesh." They taught that "matter" TRAPPED the "soul" and thus the virtue in the soul was suppressed by the flesh. Hence the root of sin was the nature of the flesh.

Augustine of Hippo was an adherent to Neo-Platonism and was also a student of Manichaeism for 9 years before he converted to Catholicism. It was Augustine of Hippo who introduced this "dual nature" aspect of humanity into orthodox Christianity by appealing to Romans 5:12 in the Latin Vulgate where Augustine held the view that "all humanity" was present in the seed of Adam when he sinned and thus was INFECTED with Original Sin.

You quote Titus 3:5 but how does that negate anything I have said. We are saved by God's mercy indeed. We don't renew our regenerate ourselves. Yet that in no way negates a genuine repentance and conversion where the rebellion is forsaken.

Who does God give the Holy Spirit to?

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Professor · Feb 23, 2013

Christians still sin:
Matthew 18:21-22
"Then Peter came and said to him, 'Lord if another member of the church sins against me, how often should I forgive? As many as seven times?' Jesus said to him, 'Not seven times, but I tell you seventy times seven times.'"

Some of these posts made me think of Ephesians 4:1-2
"I therefore...beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, making every effort to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."

Skinski7 · Feb 23, 2013

Ariel82 said:

I'd like to see YOU explain what it is exactly that I don't understand.

If you cannot clearly elaborate your own position then how do you know what you believe is in fact true? Perhaps you are just parroting what you have been taught having never seriously examined it.

I have no issue with Romans Chapter 5. Adam sinned and brought a curse on all humanity for we are all subject to death and degeneration.

The reason we physically die is because we have been denied access to the Tree of Life not because we have sinned. Adam sinned and one of the consequences was being kicked out of the garden and thus denied access to the tree of life.

Yet the death that Adam died THE DAY HE SINNED was a spiritual death. Paul in Romans 7 says this...

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

I believe that is a direct parallel with this...

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

As well as this...

Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Hence this...

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The "death passing to all men" is due to "all men having sinned" and NOT DUE to Adam sinning. Our own spiritual death is a result of an exercise of our own will in yielding to sin unto death instead of obeying God. Thus...

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Adam violated a direct commandment of God and thus sinned BY THE LAW. Yet death (spiritual) still reigned between Adam and Moses (no law given yet) over those who sinned AGAINST THEIR CONSCIENCE (Joh 1:9, Rom 2:12).

The error of Augustine was that he was not proficient in Greek and thus used the Latin Vulgate of Jerome. Romans 5:12 in the Vulgate says that "all sinned IN Adam" and Augustine took that and combined it with the "being in the loins" of Heb 7:9-10 and formulated a doctrine where "all humanity" was present in the seed of Adam and was thus just as guilty for his sin.

The doctrine of "Original Sin" grew out of this formulation of Augustine and due to his prolific use of the pen it took a hold as established orthodoxy and thus the doctrine of "sin you will and sin you must" was born into Christianity.

psychomom · Feb 23, 2013

Scott, you take a verse like 2 Peter 1:4, which is incredibly complicated in the original Greek, and want to boil it down to ONE English translational meaning.

It's unwise, I tell you. This is why all Christians need pastor/teachers who have been instructed for years in the original languages.
You know, by qualified instructors.
Again, for you own sake, please stop thinking of yourself as a voice crying in the wilderness. In a spirit of love, I beg you to pray, and to think about what has happened since you began to listen to whomever it is you listen to.
Do you have a local church?

I always asked my children, if they had had a difficult day with many other children, if there were disputes among the others.
If the answer was no, I asked them to point out to me the common denominator--which was, of course, them.

Can't you see at all that if you've contacted I dunno how many pastors and you always get the same responses,
the problem isn't them?
Do you really think all of Christendom has it wrong and just the three or four of you are right?

Please, just think about it?

psychomom · Feb 23, 2013

one more thought?

context--the verse you're reading
context--the verses which surround it
context--the entire book the verse is in

and
context--the whole counsel of God.

Skinski7 · Feb 23, 2013

Professor Black

Skinski Red

Christians still sin:
Matthew 18:21-22
"Then Peter came and said to him, 'Lord if another member of the church sins against me, how often should I forgive? As many as seven times?' Jesus said to him, 'Not seven times, but I tell you seventy times seven times.'" So you take a passage where Jesus is teaching about forgiveness and use it to imply that Christian's yield to the lusts of the flesh?

Is that what you are doing?

John says that "all unrighteousness is sin" and yet makes a distinction between "sin unto death" and "sin not unto death."

When you say that "Christian's still sin" what do you mean?

Do you mean these sins...

1Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

or these...

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Is that what you mean? Or do you mean non-presumptuous sin where you err in judgment, perhaps worry, prioritise wrong etc.

I assert that when the Bible says this...

1Joh 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

...that it is a reference to the sins listed in 1Cor 6:9-10, Eph 5:3-5, Gal 5:19-21 and Rev 21:8. In other words the sins of the flesh which are a result of iniquity or impurity of the heart.

So again, when you say "all Christian's sin" what exactly do you mean?

Some of these posts made me think of Ephesians 4:1-2
"I therefore...beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, making every effort to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."

Skinski7 · Feb 23, 2013

My comments in Red

Scott, you take a verse like 2 Peter 1:4, which is incredibly complicated in the original Greek, and want to boil it down to ONE English translational meaning. Appealing to complexity to negate the plain meaning we see in English?

The problem with that is that it is not an isolated Scripture on the topic.

Jesus spoke of a grain of wheat having to die in order to bear fruit.

Jesus spoke of us denying ourselves, picking up our cross and following Him.

Jesus taught we must be a hearer and a doer as opposed to a hearer only.

James taught that those who endure temptation are blessed and that it is in yielding to the lusts of the flesh that sin is born.

Paul wrote that those who are Christ's have crucified the passions and desires of the flesh.

Paul wrote that the old man is crucified by which the body of sin is done away with by which we are set free from sin.

2Pet 1:4 is in perfect harmony with the rest of Scripture.

Yet many say my view is wrong and that a Christian HAS NOT ESCAPED the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Many say my view is wrong and that they ARE NOT redeemed from all iniquity and made pure. They claim that ongoing sin is inevitable and that they are humbled by realising how wicked they actually still are.

It's unwise, I tell you. This is why all Christians need pastor/teachers who have been instructed for years in the original languages.
You know, by qualified instructors. The Pharisees were very well qualified and yet very deceived. Jesus picked uneducated men for they were not bogged down with intellectual dogma. There is a SIMPLICITY IN CHRIST and it is the DOCTRINE ACCORDING TO GODLINESS. Yet those who continuously argue in favour of ongoing sin often appeal to the authority of experts.
Again, for you own sake, please stop thinking of yourself as a voice crying in the wilderness. In a spirit of love, I beg you to pray, and to think about what has happened since you began to listen to whomever it is you listen to. John the Baptist was a voice crying in the wilderness in the face of a corrupt religious system. While I am no John the Baptist I do clearly see a corrupt religious system which teaches a salvation message which is disconnected from inward heart purity. It's the same error of the Pharisees in different clothing.

While the Pharisees put their confidence in being a blood descendents of Abraham and in the outward keeping of the law the modern day Pharisees put their confidence in an abstract judicial exchange. The Pharisees of old and the Pharisees is the present both miss this...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Is the modern day professing Christian who sins in "thought, word and deed" everyday, who is "totally depraved," whose heart is "desperately wicked," whose "unrighteousness is as filthy rags" who is a "sinner saved by grace" really much different to the Pharisees who professed to follow the one true God?

Think about it seriously for once.

Do you have a local church? I am still looking for a congregation. Yet I do have fellowship with a few people. There is one congregation an hours drive from here which has undergone an immense amount of change over the past 12 months. Their pastor is one of the few who, when presented with scripture that refuted his false doctrines, yielded to the scripture and thus has come out of a lot of false doctrine and is now preaching biblical repentance and the doctrine according to godliness. This pastor actually believes what the Bible plainly states and is willing to adjust his theology.

There are many people around the world who are coming out of the system of error especially with the advent of the internet because it is so easy to dig into church history and specifically pinpoint where the modern day heresies had their origin. Many church writings that were previously out of the public eye in monastries and libraries are freely and easily available.

I always asked my children, if they had had a difficult day with many other children, if there were disputes among the others.
If the answer was no, I asked them to point out to me the common denominator--which was, of course, them.

Can't you see at all that if you've contacted I dunno how many pastors and you always get the same responses,
the problem isn't them? There have been a FEW exceptions. There are some church congregations which teach that the sin must stop but they are few and far between. There are also home-fellowships which teach the sin must stop and heart purity also.
Do you really think all of Christendom has it wrong and just the three or four of you are right? There is far more than 3 or 4. There are many people who understand the Gospel but they are generally geographically disconnected and many do not personally know each other. I have met a few here and there. I even know a couple of others in my local area and there is sure to be a multitude of whom I simply do not know about.

Here is an example of someone who preaches the truth and I have no idea who this man is, yet his teaching is right on...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eL57nAm9Lo

Here is someone I know up in Seattle...

[video=youtube;zNSQS6D2qzU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNSQS6D2qzU[/video]

Here is a brother in Pittsburgh...

NEW YEARS PREACH IN PITTSBURGH - YouTube

Please, just think about it? I do think about it and I have spent a lot of time previously thinking about it. Yet the Scriptures mean what they say and when people CLEARLY believe and teach the opposite it is not difficult to conclude that they are not presently of God.

Religious Israel was apostate in the times of Jeremiah, Ezekial and Isaiah. When Jesus came the religious system was thoroughly corrupt, it was the religious people who persecuted Jesus and His followers.

Yet you really believe that the religious system today is sound? Remember deception is deceptive. Those who are deceived do not realise it. That is a very hard lesson I had to learn.

I pray that YOU think about it. I am not your enemy but a friend.

Professor · Feb 23, 2013

Skinski:

I just got back from visiting my parents and I slandered my aunt. On the way home God showed me this and I asked forgiveness. This was not a mere "error in judgement" -- it was sin. Slander is counted amongst a long list of sins that defiles us (Matthew 15:19).

My sins are covered by the blood of Jesus. Does this mean that I intentionally go on sinning? No. Absolutely not. (And Luther does not teach that we should intentionally go on sinning.)
Remember these words of scripture too: "Love covers a multitude of sin."

Skinski7 said:

Professor Black

Skinski Red

Christians still sin:
Matthew 18:21-22
"Then Peter came and said to him, 'Lord if another member of the church sins against me, how often should I forgive? As many as seven times?' Jesus said to him, 'Not seven times, but I tell you seventy times seven times.'" So you take a passage where Jesus is teaching about forgiveness and use it to imply that Christian's yield to the lusts of the flesh?

Is that what you are doing?

John says that "all unrighteousness is sin" and yet makes a distinction between "sin unto death" and "sin not unto death."

When you say that "Christian's still sin" what do you mean?

Do you mean these sins...

1Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

or these...

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Is that what you mean? Or do you mean non-presumptuous sin where you err in judgment, perhaps worry, prioritise wrong etc.

I assert that when the Bible says this...

1Joh 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

...that it is a reference to the sins listed in 1Cor 6:9-10, Eph 5:3-5, Gal 5:19-21 and Rev 21:8. In other words the sins of the flesh which are a result of iniquity or impurity of the heart.

So again, when you say "all Christian's sin" what exactly do you mean?

Some of these posts made me think of Ephesians 4:1-2
"I therefore...beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, making every effort to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."

Ariel82 · Feb 23, 2013

Skinski7 said:

well first we have to examine what you understand to explain what it is you are lacking.

I'm not sure if my elaboration is clear or not.

I know what I believe is true because I have faith God would correct my thinking if its false.

How do you know my stance if false when you don't even know what it is in the first place?

see here we need to talk about the tree of life.. for example:

do you believe we are denied access to the Tree of Life?

Also why do we still physically die?

ok nice scriptures to show that it talks about spiritual death, yet we still have the issue of physical death.

wait wait wait a minute...

how is it that by one man sin entered the world?

yes our own spiritual death is due to our own sin but it does not negate the fact that Adam's sin has stained the world.

Has caused humanity to need a Savior to restore what was lost by Adam's actions.

the fact we physically die is because of Adam's sin and that has passed on to all of humanity.

yet there are people from Adam to Moses who were NOT spiritually dead. Job was held as blameless. Abraham received the Promise and there are more but I'll finish reading your response before going into more detail if needed.

Haven't read Augustine but since you said similar things about Luther that was found to be false, I tend to give Augustine the benefit of doubt that you have again misunderstood what he (and others) have written.

zone · Feb 23, 2013

Skinski7 said:

she's already done it.
and Elin has done a SMACKDOWN on your stuff.
go respond to Elin's stuff.
oh...you can't.

Ariel82 · Feb 23, 2013

Romans is a wonderful book we should all spend some time studying.

lets have a little background: Paul is writing to the believers in Rome which is made up of both Jew and Gentiles.

Romans 1 starts with a greeting. then reminds everyone of God's just wrath upon unrighteousness and idolatry which leads to sexual immorality and other sins.

We have to remember that Romans had many gods and temples filled with idols. The emperor even proclaimed himself a god and killed those who did not agree.

We have to remember that back then it was not unusual for a man like Herod to dip Pharisees in tar and impale them on stakes and light them as an exhibit to light the path to his temple for the Saducees. (side note from a preacher I heard recently)

The world back then is nothing like the world we now live in. Many people don't understand the profound affect Jesus made on the world because they only see the religions of this world AFTER Jesus came and demons had their followers give them a face lift.

but back to Romans..

Romans 2 talks about God's just judgement and how it is the INWARD heart that makes one holy and not the outward circumcision. It talks about the importance of keeping the law.

Romans 3 takes about how the Law reveals that all people are guilty because everyone has sinned are condemned by the Law.

however these verses should be examined in more detail:

a righteousness APART from the Law which is rooted on Faith in JESUS.

this is what Luther calls the First Righteousness. the alien righteousness.

we of course should discuss it in more detail but lets continue until romans 5 and come back if needed.

Romans 4
Takes about Justification by Faith. Imputed righteousness if you have faith in the following:

"It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, [SUP]25 [/SUP]who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification."

Romans 5 yeah we are finally here.. i'm going to post this and then comment on Romans 5 before it gets deleted or something.

gotta read the kids a bedtime story. be back sometime later.

psychomom · Feb 23, 2013

Well, okay, As stated time and time again before, by pretty much everyone,
YES! to heart purity and living Christlike!

NO! to a righteousness obtained in any way, shape, or form by us!

And the 1 Peter verse was an example used to prove a point, and no, not appealing to complexity.
It's simply there. It's a FACT Greek is a very complex language. As a linguistics major, I just happen to know that much.
As a student of scripture, you should know that, too.
It's nicely dismissive to say, hey, we don't need to know what the apostles actually said in the language of the day, but when y-o-u attempt to exegete the Word with no knowledge of it, it's a problem.

The other part I quoted? What you said about isolated scripture?
That's exactly why I mentioned context, Scott.
Because it seems you hop all about the Word of God choosing verses here and there, and again I say it's unwise

You do know we don't stand against right living?
That no one is standing in the street yelling 'grace for licentiousness! '
That at no time have you ever seen anyone say, hey! sin your heart out! imputed righteousness covers it?
That we all take sin quite seriously for what it really is?
That we ALL see the call to live Godly lives?
And that it isn't preaching against sin that has people up in arms?
You do know that, don't you? I really hope you do.

But when you use obedience as a whip, and lead the young or the broken astray, and teach what is clearly not in the Bible,
well, then silence would make us all complicit, would it not?
I am...well, amazed that anyone could think they and a handful of others (because I don't care of there are scores of you, in the whole world, that's a handful) are the only ones who know the Truth.

So-- the last time I'll appeal to you as a person--I think you'll appreciate that.

If ever I respond again, it'll be strictly on the (de)merits of your case in scripture.
Good?
Thanks for answering-
ellie

zone · Feb 23, 2013

Skinski7 said:

and WHAT is it we OBEY?
same as they did - REPENT of unbelief and sin and in THAT VERY SAME DAY, OBEY The Gospel AND Receive The Holy Spirit!

Acts 2
36Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

The Fellowship of the Believers
42And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. 43And awed came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. 44And all who believed were together and had all things in common. 45And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. 46And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, 47praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

they OBEYED....and....
there were added that day about three thousand souls.

psychomom · Feb 23, 2013

Skinski7 said:

sorry, i missed that part.
i don't believe in 'religious systems'.
but i do believe in one Faith, one Lord, one baptism, one God and Father of all.

and i believe you don't know the scriptures as you think you do.

and i'm so sorry.

Skinski7 · Feb 23, 2013

My comments in red.

Well, okay, As stated time and time again before, by pretty much everyone,
YES! to heart purity and living Christlike!

The issue is that HEART PURITY is disconnected from being in a justified state. Therefore when an person is said to be "struggling with sin" it is taught that they are in a state of justification whilst engaged in the sins of the flesh. This is the issue. A Gospel is being preached which teaches that salvation and sinning exist together. A Gospel is being preached which teaches that one can yield to the lusts of the flesh and sin and at the same time be saved and secure. How is that doctrine a yes to heart purity and living Christlike.

If you truly said "yes to heart purity and living Christlike" then you would not have a problem with righteousness being "doing what is right" wrought through a faith that works by love as one abides in Christ which COMPLETELY NEGATES the possibility of being engaged in walking after the lusts of the flesh. While you may not plainly state it the fact that you deny that a Christian has "escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust" due to Greek being a complicated language means you believe that a Christian is still in bondage to the corruption that is in the world through lust correct?

One has either escaped the corruption of lust or they have not escaped the corruption of lust.
NO! to a righteousness obtained in any way, shape, or form by us!

And the 1 Peter verse was an example used to prove a point, and no, not appealing to complexity.
It's simply there. It's a FACT Greek is a very complex language. As a linguistics major, I just happen to know that much.
As a student of scripture, you should know that, too.
It's nicely dismissive to say, hey, we don't need to know what the apostles actually said in the language of the day, but when y-o-u attempt to exegete the Word with no knowledge of it, it's a problem.

The other part I quoted? What you said about isolated scripture?
That's exactly why I mentioned context, Scott.
Because it seems you hop all about the Word of God choosing verses here and there, and again I say it's unwise

You do know we don't stand against right living? When any individual espouses that one DOES NOT have to forsake known sin in order to be forgiven then they are most definitely standing against right living. This is why many sermons are presented as "moral lessons" which if yielded to will result in blessings but the morality is totally disconnected from the actual state of the soul.
That no one is standing in the street yelling 'grace for licentiousness! ' Satan does not need to for that would be too obvious. All Satan has to do is introduce subtle leaven which lays a foundation for a salvation message that makes an allowance for ongoing yielding to the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God. If a Pastor tells a man in his congregation that is addicted to pornography that he is "secure in his salvation" whilst in "his struggle with this sin" then that pastor is a Minister of Satan preaching a doctrine of death to that man.
That at no time have you ever seen anyone say, hey! sin your heart out! imputed righteousness covers it? No they don't say "sin your heart out" but they say WHEN YOU DO SIN it is covered. When a pastor teaches that a person who is saved is still carnal and sold under sin and thus they will do what they don't want to do (like lusting) then that pastor is IMPLYING that you can in fact sin your heart out.
That we all take sin quite seriously for what it really is?
That we ALL see the call to live Godly lives?
And that it isn't preaching against sin that has people up in arms? It's ok to preach that "sin is wrong" or that "you shouldn't sin." Preach that and you'll have all kinds of support. Yet preach that the "sin MUST stop" and that will not go down well at all. The pastor I spoke with in person with the other week simply will not tell the man in his congregation that is addicted to pornography that that man MUST REPENT and FORSAKE that sin or lose his soul. Instead of assures that man that he is indeed secure in his salvation because of what Jesus did on the cross and that Jesus understands his struggle. I have a SERIOUS ISSUE with the theology of that pastor. Don't you?

You do know that, don't you? I really hope you do.

But when you use obedience as a whip, and lead the young or the broken astray, and teach what is clearly not in the Bible,
well, then silence would make us all complicit, would it not? Specifically explain to me what is it exactly that I teach that is not in the Bible?
I am...well, amazed that anyone could think they and a handful of others (because I don't care of there are scores of you, in the whole world, that's a handful) are the only ones who know the Truth.

So-- the last time I'll appeal to you as a person--I think you'll appreciate that.

If ever I respond again, it'll be strictly on the (de)merits of your case in scripture.
Good?
Thanks for answering-
ellie

Ariel82 · Feb 23, 2013

ok Romans 5... sorry but when I'm in a discussion about certain scriptures I like examining the whole book from beginning to that point. It helps with misunderstandings and prevents most twisting of scriptures. though some people still manage it.

now that is just so wonderful and joyful. that even in tribulations we rejoice because we have the Love OF GOD poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit. not because of our righteous works but by our faith in Jesus and what HE did on the cross.

faith in WHAT? remember these verses from Romans 4?

"It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, [SUP]25 [/SUP]who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification."

In it we see that we admit that we have sinned, and with humble and contrite hearts fall to our knees and see Jesus being punished not for His own sins but because of our sins. Because of our offenses Jesus was delivered up and killed. However God raised Jesus from the dead.

Now it is important to notice this phrase "was raised because of our justification"
what does it mean that Jesus was raised because of OUR justification?

You see God does not just see the past or the present He sees the future and sees that we WILL be justified and that is what raises Jesus from the dead. the righteous works of the saints.

Romans 4
verse 14 "in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; "

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Revelation 12[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

[h=3]

you see we were sinners when Jesus saved us. we are justified by His blood, not by anything we do but His blood.

see we have been reconciled with God praise be to God!

we have been forgiven because of Jesus death, but we know what it truly means to be saved because of His life. not only on Earth but His reign in Heaven eternal.

[h=3]wow this is taking longer than I thought but maybe it will help someone.....[/h]

Reformed Theology - Penal Substitution and the Imputed Righteousness of Christ

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