Can Someone Explain Rev. 12:1-6 to Me?
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A
I'm not defending him. You're projecting that from your own misunderstanding at me. Obviously, you must not be reading my posts even though you are responding to them because did I not just say:
"I haven't heard him say that."
Yes I did.
I don't agree with what peterT was doing to him but that doesn't mean I align with therapon's theology.
As for your theology, I'm assuming you believe righteous Jews under the Old Covenant (e.g. Mosaic Law) went to heaven and didn't just perish into nothingness or be used by God and then damned to hell for all eternity. Guess what, they may not have been the only ones in scripture that did before Jesus Christ appeared on the earth. But you're not God nor even an orthodox Christian theologian. You're not even competent in that discussion. Just another person with an opinion. Everyone has one.
"I haven't heard him say that."
Yes I did.
I don't agree with what peterT was doing to him but that doesn't mean I align with therapon's theology.
As for your theology, I'm assuming you believe righteous Jews under the Old Covenant (e.g. Mosaic Law) went to heaven and didn't just perish into nothingness or be used by God and then damned to hell for all eternity. Guess what, they may not have been the only ones in scripture that did before Jesus Christ appeared on the earth. But you're not God nor even an orthodox Christian theologian. You're not even competent in that discussion. Just another person with an opinion. Everyone has one.
E
Nope. that comes from a faulty dispensational concept. Scripture said the law never saved anyone,, it was faith which saved them. even david understood this. Mankind from adam till the last man standing are saved by faith alone in God.. In the OT God promised to send a suffering servant,, all the way back to gen 3: 15.. This is what saved them.. they just did not know how. it was hidden from them until Christ died..
1. You do not know my background
2. You do not know my history
3. You have no clue what I know.
so your arrogance just showed quite a bit..
The fact is Christians in the first century were being persecuted. No one can deny that. The church was just a baby then. The early Christians needs a sign, hope, reassurance(whatever you want to call it) that God is watching over them. Times will be hard. People will suffer, but in the end Satan doesn't win.
Why would John have a vision for Christians many years later when persecution was going on even then?
There have been many religious wars, massacres and disasters throughout the years. History tells us things that apply to John's vison did happen in the first century. Whether you or others choose to believe it this vision was meant for the early Christians, BUT that does not mean it isn't meant for us today.
I do believe that Revelation does apply to us today and everyday. It shows us we are gonna go through some terrible times. Even now in America we see that our conutry is falling apart. The arrogance of our president is killing this country. Christians are being imprisoned in countries for not rejecting Christ. Earthquakes, droughts, and all sorts of things described int he bible are continuing to this day.
2000+ years later the Gospel is still going strong. Unfortunately, people still want to kill us just like they did from the beginning.
Revelation was a letter for the early Christians, but it also applies to every Christian til the day of Judgement.
We can argue all day long about who the antichrist is. Yet, throughout history there have been many evil rulers and EVERY ONE OF THEM HAVE FALLEN.
God doesn't change. We all know that. Just as he was with those who suffered in the early church he is with us now. This is my whole take on this prophetic book. It's a book of hope, not terror. It's a book for all believers to show them we will get our reward, and that the life we have chosen may not be easy, but goodness always prevails.
Why would John have a vision for Christians many years later when persecution was going on even then?
There have been many religious wars, massacres and disasters throughout the years. History tells us things that apply to John's vison did happen in the first century. Whether you or others choose to believe it this vision was meant for the early Christians, BUT that does not mean it isn't meant for us today.
I do believe that Revelation does apply to us today and everyday. It shows us we are gonna go through some terrible times. Even now in America we see that our conutry is falling apart. The arrogance of our president is killing this country. Christians are being imprisoned in countries for not rejecting Christ. Earthquakes, droughts, and all sorts of things described int he bible are continuing to this day.
2000+ years later the Gospel is still going strong. Unfortunately, people still want to kill us just like they did from the beginning.
Revelation was a letter for the early Christians, but it also applies to every Christian til the day of Judgement.
We can argue all day long about who the antichrist is. Yet, throughout history there have been many evil rulers and EVERY ONE OF THEM HAVE FALLEN.
God doesn't change. We all know that. Just as he was with those who suffered in the early church he is with us now. This is my whole take on this prophetic book. It's a book of hope, not terror. It's a book for all believers to show them we will get our reward, and that the life we have chosen may not be easy, but goodness always prevails.
A
Scripture says that no one is saved apart from Jesus Christ. But scripture also reveals that God made Jesus Christ available to many before his arrival on earth. That's what I'm talking about.
A secondary point would be that scripture also teaches one cannot just believe but choose a wicked life without repentance and still inherit heaven. You obviously never got the memo. So permit me to enlighten you:
Faith and Deeds (James 2:14-26)
"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."
So while you can't get to heaven off works, faith without deeds (e.g. a good tree bearing good fruit) is dead. Yes, faith is accounted as righteousness (what we're talking about with regards to people before the appearance of Jesus Christ as well as after) but you can't believe in Jesus Christ for salvation and then live like a demon on the earth your entire life immersed in the worst kind of sin imaginable and appear before Jesus at the judgement and say "Let me in. You said if I believed in you I could get in no matter what."
"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." -1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Capesh? Faith without deeds (e.g. good fruit) is dead. Don't be a foolish person.
A secondary point would be that scripture also teaches one cannot just believe but choose a wicked life without repentance and still inherit heaven. You obviously never got the memo. So permit me to enlighten you:
Faith and Deeds (James 2:14-26)
"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."
So while you can't get to heaven off works, faith without deeds (e.g. a good tree bearing good fruit) is dead. Yes, faith is accounted as righteousness (what we're talking about with regards to people before the appearance of Jesus Christ as well as after) but you can't believe in Jesus Christ for salvation and then live like a demon on the earth your entire life immersed in the worst kind of sin imaginable and appear before Jesus at the judgement and say "Let me in. You said if I believed in you I could get in no matter what."
"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." -1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Capesh? Faith without deeds (e.g. good fruit) is dead. Don't be a foolish person.
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E
Johns vision encompassed alot of time.. And as I said,, he did not just write it for them, he wrote it for us.. Why would daniel be given a vision for his people he nor his people would see. Or jeremiah all the visions he saw and told they would never see.. This is not something new. Yes,, persecution was sever then.. it is today.. we just do not see it who live in our parts of the world.. go to china, or iran, or the old soviet union.. what happened to them is no worse than has been happening since.
I can see some of the things appearing to happen.
but 1/3 of the earth getting killed off? 1/3 of the land made uninhabitable? a man who controls the earths economy with a mark? the kings of the earth cowering under rocks yelling at God to stop because his wrath is to severe?? 1 world religion? (about the closest we have had to this is the roman church, but that was not worldwide.) and many other things.. sorry, I don't see it
what is scary, or exciting, depending on how you look at it.. is they are getting exponentially worse.. Just like a mothers birth pangs.. Like never before in the history of mankind.. and it is going to get worse. not better.. Secular science today is telling us by the 50's there will not be enough food to feed the world and starvation (famine) will get so bad the whole world will be effected
Yes,, this is sad.. but we should not be surpised..
It was a letter for all of us,, it goes until the end of time, the new heaven and new earth.. the return of Christ.. thus its words are a snapshot of human history and future as God sees it
true.. which is why I will not get into that argument,, but we know the one who is really him will be destroyed by Christ himself at his return..
Amen.. It is a book of hope.. But also of warning.. if our loved ones are not saved,, they have no hope.. when we see these things coming, we need to fight harder to spread the gospel. THAT should be our main priority!
I can see some of the things appearing to happen.
but 1/3 of the earth getting killed off? 1/3 of the land made uninhabitable? a man who controls the earths economy with a mark? the kings of the earth cowering under rocks yelling at God to stop because his wrath is to severe?? 1 world religion? (about the closest we have had to this is the roman church, but that was not worldwide.) and many other things.. sorry, I don't see it
what is scary, or exciting, depending on how you look at it.. is they are getting exponentially worse.. Just like a mothers birth pangs.. Like never before in the history of mankind.. and it is going to get worse. not better.. Secular science today is telling us by the 50's there will not be enough food to feed the world and starvation (famine) will get so bad the whole world will be effected
Yes,, this is sad.. but we should not be surpised..
It was a letter for all of us,, it goes until the end of time, the new heaven and new earth.. the return of Christ.. thus its words are a snapshot of human history and future as God sees it
true.. which is why I will not get into that argument,, but we know the one who is really him will be destroyed by Christ himself at his return..
Amen.. It is a book of hope.. But also of warning.. if our loved ones are not saved,, they have no hope.. when we see these things coming, we need to fight harder to spread the gospel. THAT should be our main priority!
E
They still had to have faith in God.. not in a system of works.. or they would not be saved.. you want to argue that they can be saved by their traditions and sacramental works?? Scripture says otherwise.
Thanks for just proving you have utterly no clue what I believe. You want to enlighten me? you evidently have not been reading my posts.. because I know a licentious gospel will not save anyone.
when you are ready to find out what I believe, and stop yur silly assumptions and continue to put your foot in y9our mouth.. let me know!
Thanks for just proving you have utterly no clue what I believe. You want to enlighten me? you evidently have not been reading my posts.. because I know a licentious gospel will not save anyone.
when you are ready to find out what I believe, and stop yur silly assumptions and continue to put your foot in y9our mouth.. let me know!
@EG, if you think about it the terrors in this day are probably more brutal. I mean, they had primitive weapons. We have atomic bombs.
They had messenger pigeons. We have birds that are actually drones(in the making)
They had word of mouth. We have the internet so we can see what is actually going on(thanks to Youtube and Alex Jones)
They had Nero. We have Obama.
This is a petty attempt to be funny, but now I have to go. I may return later.
Im sure I shall be missed
They had messenger pigeons. We have birds that are actually drones(in the making)
They had word of mouth. We have the internet so we can see what is actually going on(thanks to Youtube and Alex Jones)
They had Nero. We have Obama.
This is a petty attempt to be funny, but now I have to go. I may return later.
Im sure I shall be missed
Beth
Daniel 2
Daniel Interprets the Dream
31“You saw, O king, and behold, a great image. This image, mighty and of exceeding brightness, stood before you, and its appearance was frightening. 32The head of this image was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its middle and thighs of bronze, 33its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
36“This was the dream. Now we will tell the king its interpretation. 37You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory, 38and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all—you are the head of gold. 39Another kingdom inferior to you shall arise after you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these. 41And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage,c but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”
But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
AMEN
Daniel 2
Daniel Interprets the Dream
31“You saw, O king, and behold, a great image. This image, mighty and of exceeding brightness, stood before you, and its appearance was frightening. 32The head of this image was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its middle and thighs of bronze, 33its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
36“This was the dream. Now we will tell the king its interpretation. 37You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory, 38and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all—you are the head of gold. 39Another kingdom inferior to you shall arise after you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these. 41And as you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom, but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the soft clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage,c but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, 45just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure.”
But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
AMEN
A
1No we dont because that isnt the scope of their coversation. The kingdoms are too many to mention all through Israel.
The nations involved in uprisings were Egypt, Syria, Judea, Samaria, Greeks, Rome...just plenty of historic wars and uprisings
of kingdoms and nations involved just prior to Vespasian and Titus in 70ad.
2Nope again starvation took out 100s of thousands of jews and earthquakes also. Not a worldwide view.
3All nations hated them(christians)became illegal then to carry the name
4Wrong you not quoting accuratly, He did not say He would stop it. Days shortened as in head for the hills.
None of the Christians(elect) died from this. The war is about Jerusalem. No time had anything like this hapenned
to them or ever will just Like He said. Again the phrase "beginning of the world to this time" is not signifying
anything more than a time reference not at all meaning a scope of the world in landmass.
Try reading it slower
The nations involved in uprisings were Egypt, Syria, Judea, Samaria, Greeks, Rome...just plenty of historic wars and uprisings
of kingdoms and nations involved just prior to Vespasian and Titus in 70ad.
2Nope again starvation took out 100s of thousands of jews and earthquakes also. Not a worldwide view.
3All nations hated them(christians)became illegal then to carry the name
4Wrong you not quoting accuratly, He did not say He would stop it. Days shortened as in head for the hills.
None of the Christians(elect) died from this. The war is about Jerusalem. No time had anything like this hapenned
to them or ever will just Like He said. Again the phrase "beginning of the world to this time" is not signifying
anything more than a time reference not at all meaning a scope of the world in landmass.
Try reading it slower
E
1No we dont because that isnt the scope of their coversation. The kingdoms are too many to mention all through Israel.
The nations involved in uprisings were Egypt, Syria, Judea, Samaria, Greeks, Rome...just plenty of historic wars and uprisings
of kingdoms and nations involved just prior to Vespasian and Titus in 70ad.
2Nope again starvation took out 100s of thousands of jews and earthquakes also. Not a worldwide view.
3All nations hated them(christians)became illegal then to carry the name
4Wrong you not quoting accuratly, He did not say He would stop it. Days shortened as in head for the hills.
None of the Christians(elect) died from this. The war is about Jerusalem. No time had anything like this hapenned
to them or ever will just Like He said. Again the phrase "beginning of the world to this time" is not signifying
anything more than a time reference not at all meaning a scope of the world in landmass.
Try reading it slower
The nations involved in uprisings were Egypt, Syria, Judea, Samaria, Greeks, Rome...just plenty of historic wars and uprisings
of kingdoms and nations involved just prior to Vespasian and Titus in 70ad.
2Nope again starvation took out 100s of thousands of jews and earthquakes also. Not a worldwide view.
3All nations hated them(christians)became illegal then to carry the name
4Wrong you not quoting accuratly, He did not say He would stop it. Days shortened as in head for the hills.
None of the Christians(elect) died from this. The war is about Jerusalem. No time had anything like this hapenned
to them or ever will just Like He said. Again the phrase "beginning of the world to this time" is not signifying
anything more than a time reference not at all meaning a scope of the world in landmass.
Try reading it slower
(begining of the world there was just the garden of eden.. Then the world moved out.. Jesus said even these areas are included.. not just Isreal which did not come for a few thousand years after the begining of the world)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved
(no flesh means no life. not just human life, but all life);
but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. How will they be shortened?? [SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]See, I have told you beforehand.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. [SUP]27[/SUP]For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
The Coming of the Son of Man
[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
All the tribes of the earth, again worldwide..
andthey will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
As the angel told the disciples. as the lord departed.. so will be his return, in the clouds.
How much slower do you want me to read it?
T
It's not only said, it is provble that the Jews of the Christian era play a major role in Revelation. One of the Two Witmesses of Revelation 11 is the Jewish people of the Christian era, the other witness is the Gentile church. Furthermore, the 42 months of 11:2, the 1260 days of 11:3-4 and the 1260 days of 12:6 are fulfilled in new Israel, but I might, but I might as well be speaking in Mongolian on this thread as far as believeing it.
E
Jacobs trouble=70 years
I think i say that once a week sheesh=babylonian captivity "over with"
I think i say that once a week sheesh=babylonian captivity "over with"
There shall be none like it..
when they returned from babylon.. They did not serve the lord their God, and david did not sit on his throne..
[SUP]8 [/SUP]‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the Lord of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
They were still slaves, of the medes and persians
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But they shall serve the Lord their God,
The brought the babylonian Gods with them.. and served them,, and the laws which Jesus had to refute were also written at this time.
And David their king,Whom I will raise up for them.
Never happened