Can Someone Explain Rev. 12:1-6 to Me?

[zone]

Jacobs trouble=70 years

I think i say that once a week sheesh=babylonian captivity "over with"

once a week x 70 weeks.
hmm...no you got 490 years to fill mike

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 15:[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the covenant(promises) made unto the fathersDaniel 9:27)

dan 9: 27?

this covenant was not made until

1. After messiah was cut off
2. After the city and sanctuary was destroyed
3. Would be broken by the abomination of desolation in the middle of the week.

I am sorry abiding.. But I can not see how yuo can get dan 9: 27 in here

the covenant which Jesus fulfilled was that all the nations of the earth would be blessed through the seed of abraham..

The prophets and men of the OT who loved God looked at this as more important than even the land covenant made at the same time.. which was not salvic in nature..Yeah the land is great, but what good is it if I will not spend eternity in heaven..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

once a week x 70 weeks.
hmm...no you got 490 years to fill mike

Nope. you have the things God said would happen to fill.. We wer not told how many weeks the time of jacobs trouble would be.. so why you trying to add time to it?

 

[Abiding]

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

(begining of the world there was just the garden of eden.. Then the world moved out.. Jesus said even these areas are included.. not just Isreal which did not come for a few thousand years after the begining of the world)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved

(no flesh means no life. not just human life, but all life);

but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. How will they be shortened?? [SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]See, I have told you beforehand.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. [SUP]27[/SUP]For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The Coming of the Son of Man

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,

All the tribes of the earth, again worldwide..

andthey will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

As the angel told the disciples. as the lord departed.. so will be his return, in the clouds.

How much slower do you want me to read it?

You havnt even digested what i already gave you. Its not the first time ive given ample evidence
to your questions or points and you never even acknowledge them a bit.
So im too tired to throw down some Joel, Jeremiah, and Zephaniah on ya just to be ignored.

You want it to be world wide cool have it worldwide.

 

[zone]

Nope. you have the things God said would happen to fill.. We wer not told how many weeks the time of jacobs trouble would be.. so why you trying to add time to it?

it was a joke to mike, EG.

Daniel 9 is fulfilled.
if i've said it once, i have said it a thousand times

Psalm 50:10
"For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills.

Revelation 20:7
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison

nite bud
love zone

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You havnt even digested what i already gave you. Its not the first time ive given ample evidence
to your questions or points and you never even acknowledge them a bit.
So im too tired to throw down some Joel, Jeremiah, and Zephaniah on ya just to be ignored.

You want it to be world wide cool have it worldwide.

go ahead.. throw them in.. I have already through them in in the past myself

and no I don't want it to be worldwide.. as I showed above, it is worldwide

again I ask.. how could the possibility of all human, plan and animal life being destroyed have happened in 70 AD?

ps.. I have acknowledged them in the past..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

it was a joke to mike, EG.

Daniel 9 is fulfilled.
if i've said it once, i have said it a thousand times

Psalm 50:10
"For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills.

Revelation 20:7
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison

nite bud
love zone

lol.. Dan 9 is not fulfilled. I have said it 1001 times

Night sis! Love ya too you know it!

 

[Abiding]

dan 9: 27?

this covenant was not made until

1. After messiah was cut off
2. After the city and sanctuary was destroyed
3. Would be broken by the abomination of desolation in the middle of the week.

I am sorry abiding.. But I can not see how yuo can get dan 9: 27 in here

the covenant which Jesus fulfilled was that all the nations of the earth would be blessed through the seed of abraham..

The prophets and men of the OT who loved God looked at this as more important than even the land covenant made at the same time.. which was not salvic in nature..Yeah the land is great, but what good is it if I will not spend eternity in heaven..

Your killing me with this crazy land thing EG. Daniel 9 is about

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Jesus started the 70th week when He started His ministry. I dont have a problem getting anything anywhere.
Thats just how it happened.

 

[Abiding]

go ahead.. throw them in.. I have already through them in in the past myself

and no I don't want it to be worldwide.. as I showed above, it is worldwide

again I ask.. how could the possibility of all human, plan and animal life being destroyed have happened in 70 AD?

ps.. I have acknowledged them in the past..

No thanks if you cant understand Jacobs trouble is in the past
I just cant do this futurists thingy all the time.....just a little once
in awhile but thats it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your killing me with this crazy land thing EG. Daniel 9 is about

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Jesus started the 70th week when He started His ministry. I dont have a problem getting anything anywhere.
Thats just how it happened.

Sorry bud. but history does not support this theory. Literally to the day from the time the command to restore JERUSALEM until the coming of messiah (his triumphant entry into jerusalem on a donkey) was exactly 69 weeks.. He will killed 7 literal days later..

Jesus was killed at the end of the 69th week. so how could he start in the beggining of the 70th

Not to mention.. if he started at the begining of the 70th week.. the 70 weeks would have ended 4 years after his death,, thus you already have a gap between then and 70 ad when the city and sanctuary was destroyed..

does not fit..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No thanks if you cant understand Jacobs trouble is in the past
I just cant do this futurists thingy all the time.....just a little once
in awhile but thats it.

How can I understand it

They did not serve God
they were not all returned
and david was not given his throne.

I can't buy into this past theory any more than you seem unable to buy into future theory. to many wholes to fill and to much scripture to twist.

 

[Pilgrimer]

what I think, is we take the OT prophesies,, like Jacobs trouble

We take what Jesus said would happen before.

Nation rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom (did not happen in the time between jesus speach and 70 AD, and rome was the only kingdom in that time period)

That's not true eternally-grateful. In the years leading up to the Roman/Jewish war the Roman Empire topped on the brink of collapse a number of times. The year 69 A.D. was called the year of the 4 emperors because one emperor would rise to the imperial throne only to be assassinated and another rise up. During these years the city of Rome itself was sacked by the Gauls. There were wars and civil unrest throughout the empire. General Vespasian, who had been sent to Palestine to prosecute the war, actually ceased all military operations in Palestine at one point to see what would happen back in Rome, the empire was teetering on the brink of collapse. Then in the vacuum of power left with the death of another emperor, Vespasians armies elected him emperor and he sailed off the Rome to try to gather up the reins of state and try to stablize the shaky government.

Now this was in the fall of 69 A.D. and the cessation in the war had lulled many Jews into compacency, which is why so many made the annual pilgrimage up to the Jerusalem the following spring. But unknown to them, Vespasian had turned over the prosecution of the war to his son, Titus, and his famous legion from Egypt. So when Titus approached Jerusalem in the spring of 70 A.D. to begin the siege, he was now the "prince" of the Roman Empire, as Daniel had foretold, that "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary."

So it's simply not true that Rome was at peace and there were no wars, the Gauls sacking of Rome and the civil wars and fighting among the Roman armies almost brought down the empire.

Then the natural disasters increasing in ferosity,, hunger increasing, Disease increasing etc etc.

That too is not true. Even the New Testament itself records the widespead famine in Palestine, remember Paul taking up a collection to take back to Jerusalem? Egypt too experienced a terrible drought that caused a disruption in the grain shipments to Rome causing more civil unrest in the empire. Rome was also plagued by a disease that broke out when foreign armies were occupying the city that caused lesions on the bodies of all those afflicted. And with the opening up and spread of trade made possible by the Pax Romana, diseases were also spread and those in the Mediterranean world were exposed to pathogens they had no immunity to. Just as the first century had dawned with peace and prosperity, it was closing with war and disease. The first case of bubonic plague hit Libya, Egypt, and Syria within a decade of the war.

we take what jesus said (they will deliver you up to tribulation)

We take what we are shown in revelations. all the seals being opened, and all the catastrophic events..

the mere fact jesus said if he did not return no flesh (libing thing.. not just human flesh, but no flesh) would survive.

But you can't just take those verses out of context. There being no flesh saved if the Lord had not shortened those days wasn't speaking of some worldwide event, but of just how nearly complete the destruction of the Jewish nation would be had God not shortened the days: "Isaiah also cried concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved; For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Isaiah said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been made as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha." Romans 9:27-29 Now notice that Paul said Isaiah said these things "concerning Israel." And he was quoting Isaiah 10:22-23: "For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return; the consummation decreed shall overflow with righteousness. For the Lord God of hosts shall make a conumption, even determined, in the midst of the land." That translation of the Hebrew is a little difficult, but it is basically saying that God would complete the destruction that he had decreed in the the Law. This consumption, or consummation (an end, a full end) that was decreed in the Law is also what Daniel was talking about: "...and for the overspreading of abominations, he shall make it desolate, even until the coonsummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." And all of this goes back to what was decreed in the Law, the curse against Israel if they broke covenant with God and turned from him to worship idols, which they did, time and gain throughout their history. God had always warned the Jewish people that he would punish them with destuction so that "ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude."

So this destruction of the Jewish nation, even though they were as numerous as the sands of the sea or the stars of the sky, they would be left few in number, and indeed, had God not shortened the days of the war, there wouldn't have been any Jews left alive. Again Isaiah 1:9: Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a small remnant, we should have been made like unto Sodom, and we should have been made like unto Gomorrah." If God had not shortened the days, no flesh would have been left alive, was speaking of the Jewish people in the sore, bitter judgment that God brought upon that sinful, stiff-necked people.

what happened in ww2 made what happened in 70ad look like a school picnic.

what will happen in this 'great tribulation" will make ww2 look like a picnic.

I just can not with a straight face and clear conscience put these events in 70 ad.. sorry

But you are basing that on an assumption about what God shortening the days else no flesh would be saved means, but can you offer any Scriptural support for making that a prophecy about a worldwide war? Where does the Scriptures say elsewhere anything of the like? Because I have shown you scriptures which speak of it being a reference to the destruction of the Jewish nation.

Yes, what happened was horrible.. But jesus predicted it would happen. Even daniel did.. so it would have been no suprise to them..

But that's not the point. The point is that it is the only prediction of this kind in the Bible and Jesus and Daniel and Isaiah and Moses and the Revelation were all talking about the same thing. And none of them were talking about a world war and a remnant of gentiles being left alive. Throughout the Bible this subject is always about a people who were as the sand and the stars who would be left few in number and that was Israel.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Abiding]

deja vu all over again and again and again

Ive told you about all this before...you never read the posts!
Jesus fulfilled that...Hes sitting right NOW on davids throne...sheesh(read Peters sermon at Pentecost)
get the land out of your eyes...Its about Jesus not land and unregenerate Israel
The promises were NEVER to the children of the flesh. Never!

Theres no holes Jesus confirmed the covenant after He ascended the Jews stayed In Israel
till the 70th week was over. Fulfilled. Then went out to the Gentiles, more fulfillment.
And a 40 year period elapsed before 70ad. I wont go into that...you wont read this anyway.

 

[Pilgrimer]

dan 9: 27?

this covenant was not made until

1. After messiah was cut off
2. After the city and sanctuary was destroyed
3. Would be broken by the abomination of desolation in the middle of the week.

I am sorry abiding.. But I can not see how yuo can get dan 9: 27 in here

the covenant which Jesus fulfilled was that all the nations of the earth would be blessed through the seed of abraham..

The prophets and men of the OT who loved God looked at this as more important than even the land covenant made at the same time.. which was not salvic in nature..Yeah the land is great, but what good is it if I will not spend eternity in heaven..

This passage from Daniel is not talking about Jesus fulfilling the Old Covenant, he did that when the New Covenant was instituted at Calvary. This passage of Daniel was about Jesus confirming to the Christian Jews that God had fulfilled his promise of making a New Covenant with them, and he did that by taking away the things God had provided for the observance of the Old Covenant, at exactly the time and in exactly the manner the Law and the Prophets had foretold. That was the confirmation to the Jewish Christians who might have had any lingering doubts that Jesus was indeed the Messiah and the New Covenant had indeed been established, else nothing, not Rome nor all the forces of hell itself could have destroyed God's Temple and Holy City.

And even further, the fact that all these things were accomplished exactly as they had been foretold thousands of years before, and that they were accomplished in the generation of Jesus' coming is proof and confirmation that Jesus Christ is indeed the Son of God!

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Nice history Pilgrimer but you're not mentioning that the Romans took a great number of Jewish rebels as slaves during the Roman-Jewish wars of the first and second century and dispersed them throughout the Roman empire in a Jewish diaspora. This, combined with the destruction of the temple and Hadrian's persecution of Judaism in what he now called Syria Palaestina, is how Rabbinic Judaism became a religion centered around synagogues instead of the temple which was destroyed except for the Western wall and caverns. But it's important to note that a great many Jews remained in the Holy Land. They were in no danger of utter extermination as you are suggesting. So you can't use that to prop up a preterist view.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Not too mention that I look around and I don't see a millennial reign of Christ happening around me in 2013... lol. You've got to be living pretty good to be pushing that nonsense.

 

[Abiding]

Nice history Pilgrimer but you're not mentioning that the Romans took a great number of Jewish rebels as slaves during the Roman-Jewish wars of the first and second century and dispersed them throughout the Roman empire in a Jewish diaspora. This, combined with the destruction of the temple and Hadrian's persecution of Judaism in what he now called Syria Palaestina, is how Rabbinic Judaism became a religion centered around synagogues instead of the temple which was destroyed except for the Western wall and caverns. But it's important to note that a great many Jews remained in the Holy Land. They were in no danger of utter extermination as you are suggesting. So you can't use that to prop up a preterist view.

How could those facts matter to a preterist view?

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Abiding,

While I appreciate you asking a question rather than making an allegation, I'm still not going to give a dissertation on the topic. You'll just have to figure it out. And no I'm not saying that Pilgrimer is a preterist. I was just making a statement is all. Just a little statement. Don't extrapolate.

 

[spirit1st]

Yes it talking about the Birth of JESUS CHRISt
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


They went to egypt for a time!

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
That OF COURSE is Jesus


This of course is the fallen angels being kicked out of heaven

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.


That is revealing the anti christ that satan dwells in !

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:


This is just talking about the 12 tribes of Israel You know the gates of heaven ]New Jerusalem } has 12 gates that are the 12 tribes of Israel ! They are not the people of course !
Salvation is Only of the JEWS! We are all grafted in as jews! Belonging Now to the NEW PRIEST tribe Judah ! It all about Israel ! That why we must be grafted in ! satan been trying to wipe out israel and the jewish race since there beginning! He never will !

 

[1still_waters]

Not too mention that I look around and I don't see a millennial reign of Christ happening around me in 2013... lol. You've got to be living pretty good to be pushing that nonsense.

What you don't see is a manifestation of YOUR interpretation of what you think the millennial reign will look like.