Can Someone Explain Rev. 12:1-6 to Me?

[Geometar]

How do we know that the “woman” is St.Mary? “{“Dear woman” –Jesus calls St.Mary thus in John 2, and in many other places including at the time of his death} The symbolism with moon and sun clothed on her is recurring in both Songs and Revelations. In Songs it is said she will be called the “most blessed”. St.Mary is called the blessed by Elizabeth. Revelations 12:17– “the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed” [See the similarity in revelations 13: "6He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in HEAVEN. 7He was given power to make war against the SAINTS and to conquer them.. "] The dragon wages war with the Saints, and is “wroth with the woman”. The Woman is none else than the Queen of the Saints and the Angels, the Heavenly Gebirah–Mother Mary. Jesus always calls St.Mary by the name “Woman” in the NT. “The remnant of her seed” refers to Jesus Christ and all christians who are one Body.
(Thats why St.Mary is called the Mother of Christians)

Crowned with the 12 stars. Revelations 12 says the “woman” was CROWNED with 12 stars, clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet. How do we know this “woman” is St.Mary? 1) The same Revelations 12 says the woman’s son would rule nations with an iron rod and would be caught up to GOD’s throne!. Who would sit at God’s throne except Jesus Christ?And the woman who gave birth to Him is ofcourse St.Mary. 2) Jesus always calls St.Mary as the “Woman”. Isnt it strange that a man calls his mother as “Woman”?..he was either being disrespectful..or wanted to convey something. Jesus titled her as the “woman” exactly because she represented something greater. “Dear Woman”–John 2 “Woman, behold, your son!”–John 19: 26 3)”the Queen takes her place at your right hand in the gold of Ophir….So shall the King desire your beauty, for He is your Lord, and you must worship Him…I will make your name (the Queen’s) MEMORABLE THROUGHOUT ALL GENERATIONS, and all nations shall praise you forever and ever.” Now read this verse below to see who is this “Queen” who was made “memorable throughout all generations”:
Luke 1:48 Mary says, “From henceforth all generations shall call me blessed”. 4)”One is my dove, my perfect one is but one. She is the only one of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her. The daughters saw her and declared her the most blessed; the queens and the concubines they prasied her. Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?” (Songs 6:8-9). Here a woman is described as the “morning rising”, “fair as the moon”, “bright as the sun”, and “terrible as as army set in array”. Songs also says “the daughters declared her the most blessed”. {Who was declared the blessed by the daughters? “God has blessed you above all women, and your child is blessed.”– Luke 1:43, Elizbateh says to St.Mary} And the description of being clad with the sun and moon under her feet bears striking resemblance(revelations 12) to the verses in Songs 6.

 

[Geometar]

How do we know that the “woman” is St.Mary? “{“Dear woman” –Jesus calls St.Mary thus in John 2, and in many other places including at the time of his death} The symbolism with moon and sun clothed on her is recurring in both Songs and Revelations. In Songs it is said she will be called the “most blessed”. St.Mary is called the blessed by Elizabeth. Revelations 12:17– “the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed” [See the similarity in revelations 13: "6He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in HEAVEN. 7He was given power to make war against the SAINTS and to conquer them.. "] The dragon wages war with the Saints, and is “wroth with the woman”. The Woman is none else than the Queen of the Saints and the Angels, the Heavenly Gebirah–Mother Mary. Jesus always calls St.Mary by the name “Woman” in the NT. “The remnant of her seed” refers to Jesus Christ and all christians who are one Body.
(Thats why St.Mary is called the Mother of Christians)

Crowned with the 12 stars. Revelations 12 says the “woman” was CROWNED with 12 stars, clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet. How do we know this “woman” is St.Mary? 1) The same Revelations 12 says the woman’s son would rule nations with an iron rod and would be caught up to GOD’s throne!. Who would sit at God’s throne except Jesus Christ?And the woman who gave birth to Him is ofcourse St.Mary. 2) Jesus always calls St.Mary as the “Woman”. Isnt it strange that a man calls his mother as “Woman”?..he was either being disrespectful..or wanted to convey something. Jesus titled her as the “woman” exactly because she represented something greater. “Dear Woman”–John 2 “Woman, behold, your son!”–John 19: 26 3)”the Queen takes her place at your right hand in the gold of Ophir….So shall the King desire your beauty, for He is your Lord, and you must worship Him…I will make your name (the Queen’s) MEMORABLE THROUGHOUT ALL GENERATIONS, and all nations shall praise you forever and ever.” Now read this verse below to see who is this “Queen” who was made “memorable throughout all generations”:
Luke 1:48 Mary says, “From henceforth all generations shall call me blessed”. 4)”One is my dove, my perfect one is but one. She is the only one of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her. The daughters saw her and declared her the most blessed; the queens and the concubines they prasied her. Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?” (Songs 6:8-9). Here a woman is described as the “morning rising”, “fair as the moon”, “bright as the sun”, and “terrible as as army set in array”. Songs also says “the daughters declared her the most blessed”. {Who was declared the blessed by the daughters? “God has blessed you above all women, and your child is blessed.”– Luke 1:43, Elizbateh says to St.Mary} And the description of being clad with the sun and moon under her feet bears striking resemblance(revelations 12) to the verses in Songs 6.Are there thrones in heaven? “Surrounding the throne were twenty- four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.”– revelations 4:4 Beside the Throne of Jesus Christ, there will be thrones of the 24 elders. Where is the throne of St.Mary? “Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right.”–1 Kings 2:19 In Israel the Queen mother sat at the right hand side of the King. The heavenly throne of St.Mary will be beside that of Christ. “A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.”–revelations 12:1 St.Mary is crowned with 12 stars. What do these 12 stars represent? The 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 Apostles. In Genesis 37:9, Joseph dreams that the “sun, moon and the eleven stars” are bowing down to him. ” Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”– Genesis 37:9 The eleven stars were the other 11 tribes of Israel.

 

[Geometar]

Are there thrones in heaven? “Surrounding the throne were twenty- four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.”– revelations 4:4 Beside the Throne of Jesus Christ, there will be thrones of the 24 elders. Where is the throne of St.Mary? “Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right.”–1 Kings 2:19 In Israel the Queen mother sat at the right hand side of the King. The heavenly throne of St.Mary will be beside that of Christ. “A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.”–revelations 12:1 St.Mary is crowned with 12 stars. What do these 12 stars represent? The 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 Apostles. In Genesis 37:9, Joseph dreams that the “sun, moon and the eleven stars” are bowing down to him. ” Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”– Genesis 37:9 The eleven stars were the other 11 tribes of Israel.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Sorry bud. but history does not support this theory.

Actually eternally-grateful, neither history nor Scripture supports the interpretations you are giving to these things. You are reading into them meaning that makes sense to you, but these interpretations cannot be found elsewhere in Scripture, and do not in fact correspond to actual history.

Literally to the day from the time the command to restore JERUSALEM until the coming of messiah (his triumphant entry into jerusalem on a donkey) was exactly 69 weeks..

But that's not true. The decree of Cyrus is dated to 539 B.C. and it was the decree of Cyrus to rebuild and restore Jerusalem that is specifically stated by Ezra 1:16, 6:1-5, Isaiah 44:23-45:8, and 2 Chronicles 36:22-23. The history of Cyrus's conquest over Babylon and the establishment of the Persian Empire is well know and documented from not only textual evidence but archaeological as well. Here's a photo of the very cylinder, called the Karush Prism, or Cyrus Cylinder, that the prophets said Cyrus woud make, and that he "would put it in writing." Here it is:



This was the "decree" the prophets spoke of, and they actually quoted it.

So it was not in fact 483 years from the decree of Cyrus to the Trimphant Entry into Jerusalem by Jesus. It was 569 years, if you count consecutive years. But Daniel's 70 weeks may not be speaking of consecutive years. They are divided into 7 weeks, 62 weeks, and 1 week, a total of 70 weeks but not necessarily consecutive weeks. So the truth is these weeks of Daniel are not so cut and dried as some insist they are and trying to base our understanding of prophecy on such things is laying a very shaky foundation. It's better to base our understanding of prophecy on the Gospel, which is after all the "light" that gives us knowledge and understanding in these things, not math and not dates.

He will killed 7 literal days later..

Again, that's not true. Jesus rode into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, Nisan 10, and was crucified on Friday, Nisan 15. That wasn't 7 days after his triumphant entry, it was 5 days later.

Jesus was killed at the end of the 69th week. so how could he start in the beggining of the 70th

But that's not what Daniel said. He said Messiah would be cut off "after 62 weeks," not at the end of 69 weeks. Again, you are assuming these are consecutive weeks despite the fact they historically could not have occurred consecutively.

What is glaringly apparent is that the 70th week, in which the city and the sanctuary would be destroyed and the sacrifice and oblation would cease was the 7-year Roman/Jewish war in which the city and the sanctuary were destroyed and the sacrifice and oblation ceased. It is much more simple then to calculate backwards. The war began in 66 and ended in 73, the 70th week. So calculating backwards, Jesus was crucified during the 64th week. The phrase "after 62 weeks" is not a definitive time but as with much of this type of prophecy God intentionally made it obscure enough so that no one could exactly figure out the date of Messiah else they would not have crucified Jesus. But we have the advantage of being able to look back and see how all these things were fulfilled and can base our understanding not on speculation using math and dates, but on the actual fulfillment of these events that occurred in the generation of Jesus' first coming.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

Nice history Pilgrimer but you're not mentioning that the Romans took a great number of Jewish rebels as slaves during the Roman-Jewish wars of the first and second century and dispersed them throughout the Roman empire in a Jewish diaspora. This, combined with the destruction of the temple and Hadrian's persecution of Judaism in what he now called Syria Palaestina, is how Rabbinic Judaism became a religion centered around synagogues instead of the temple which was destroyed except for the Western wall and caverns. But it's important to note that a great many Jews remained in the Holy Land. They were in no danger of utter extermination as you are suggesting. So you can't use that to prop up a preterist view.

The prophecies were not against the Jewish race worldwide. The warning was against the land of Israel, and particularly against Jerusalem, and those who dwelled there.

"And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. And to the others [the men with the slaughter weapons in their hands] he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite; let not your eyes spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark: and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth and slew the city. And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?" Ezekiel 9:4-8

So, again, this pouring out of God's fury was not upon the whole of the Jewish race worldwide, it was a judgment on the land of Israel.

But I disagree that there were "a great many Jews" left in Israel after the war. The population of Jerusalem before the war is given by Tacitus as 600,000. But there were 1,100,000 Jews killed in the siege of Jerusalem alone. The reason for so many deaths in Jerusalem is given by Josephus: "Of those, the largest number consisted of Jews by race, but not natives of Jerusalem; they had assembled from the whole country for the Feast of Unleavened Bread; and had suddenly been caught up in the war. Consequently, the overcrowding caused death first by pestilence and later, also more quickly by hunger ... But now fate [or rather God] had decreed that one prison should confine the whole nation, and that war should encompass the city, packed as it was with people. The victims thus outnumbered by far those of any previous destruction wrought by God or man." Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book VI, Chapter 9, 420-428.

This was the glaringly obvious fulfillment of the judgment of God: "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress ..." Revelation 14:19

Josephus goes on to explain that after the war was won, the Romans slew all the aged and infirm of the Jews, only saving those in their prime, some to be used for slaves, but most to be sent to the arenas and theaters to be killed in sporting events for entertainment. Even while the Romans were sorting out the survivors 11,000 Jews starved to death.

So while there were certainly survivors, as the Scritpures said there would be, it's simply not true to imply that there were "a great many," when in fact the number given by Josephus of the survivors of the siege who were relased to return to their homes was 40,000, certainly a small remnant of the total population.

As a final comment, Josephus reports that there were so many Jews killed during the navel battle on the Sea of Galilee that the sea was turned red with blood, and so many dead bodies washed into the Jordan River that it dammed up the river and stopped it's flow.

And Josephus further states that every city, town, and village in the entire country was destroyed, the fields and vineyards burnt up so that the land before the war which had looked like Eden, after the war was a smoking ruin and rubble with pillars of smoke rising up and darkening the skies above the entire landscape. Even the forests around Jerusalem were stripped for lumber to build the siege walls and siege engines so that to this very day the land has never recovered from the devastatingly total deforestation and the erosion that followed.

So while I appreciate your reminder that there were "a great many Jews" who did not perish in the war, I don't think your point is valid in that these terrible prophecies were about the judgment against the land of Israel, and particularly the city of Jerusalem, and those that dwelled there, which is why Jesus warned "those who be in Judea" to "flee." And from the account given by Josephus the vast majority of Jews who did not flee from the war, perished in the war, or were deported as slaves, so that the population of Jews in Palestine after the war was only a remnant of what it had been.

But let me say too, that my views are not "propped up" solely by one fact, they are the fruit of many years of study of primarily the doctrines of the Gospel, and secondarily the doctrines of prophecy which the Gospel of Jesus is the subject of, and lastly the doctrines of eschatology, which the Gospel of Jesus is the best explanation of. So with the Gospel and it's doctrines being my first love, I tend to have a "let the chips fall where they may" attitude toward eschatology.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Or, what it really doesn't look like because it has not occurred yet. Yes, that's it.

What you don't see is a manifestation of YOUR interpretation of what you think the millennial reign will look like.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Pilgrimage, the Jewish population was much larger than your understanding. By the time of Hadrian's success, Antoninus Pius, the Jews were living in peaceful subjugation in significant numbers all over Palaestina-Judaea and allowed to practice their religion.

Try reading some PhD Israeli scholars like Michael Avi-Yonah. You can start with titles like 'The Jews under Roman and Byzantine rule: a political history of Palestine from the Bar Kokhba War to the Arab conquest.'

Historian Shmuel Katz writes that even after the disaster of the Bar revolt:

"Jewish life remained active and productive. Banished from Jerusalem, it now centered on Galilee. Refugees returned; Jews who had been sold into slavery were redeemed. In the centuries after Bar Kochba and Hadrian, some of the most significant creations of the Jewish spirit were produced in Palestine. It was there that the Mishnah was completed and the Jerusalem Talmud was compiled, and the bulk of the community farmed the land."

Katz lists 43 populous communities left in Palestine and a number along the coast, in the Negev, in Jordan, 31 villages in Galilee, the Jordan valley, etc... An estimated 2/3 of the entire population in the Galilee and 1/3 of the coastal region were Jewish.

Etc...

 

[Pilgrimer]

Pilgrimage, the Jewish population was much larger than your understanding.

I don't believe so. All due respect to Avi-Yonah, some of whose work I am familiar with, but the population estimation by the best archaeological authorities makes such a conclusion as you have reached on the Jewish population and makeup of the region after the war impossible, even if Avi-Yohah's inflated numbers are extrapolated backward from the post-Kochbah period. And I might add that the population study Avi-Yonah did on the Negev is considered to have over-estimated those numbers.

Allow me to quote the esteemed Israeli archaeologist Magen Broshi on the population of the whole of Palestine in antiquity:

"...the population of Palestine in antiquity did not exceed a million persons. It can also be shown, moreover, that this was more or less the size of the population in the peak period—the late Byzantine period, around AD 600." (Magen Broshi, The Population of Western Palestine in the Roman-Byzantine Period, Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research, No. 236, p.7.)


This estimation is seconded by the equally imminent Yigal Shiloh in "The Population of Iron Age Palestine in the Light of a Sample Analysis of Urban Plans, Areas, and Population Density, Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research, No. 239, p. 33.)

So if the population of the whole of Palestine at it's greatest in ancient times was only 1 million, and that was in 600 A.D., then that leaves us with a smaller population during the 1st century, ergo, archaeological evidence supports the record of Tacitus that the population was around 600,000.


Now if the total population of all Palestine was only 600,000, or even if it was 1 million, and 1,100,000 Jews were killed in the siege of Jerusalem (many of which were pilgrims come to the Passover which would logically include Jews from the Diaspora), and another 97,000 were sold into slavery, and 11,000 died in captivity of starvation, and 40,000 were released to return home, then it is simply not possible that "a great many" Jews were left living in Palestine.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[zone]

Or, what it really doesn't look like because it has not occurred yet. Yes, that's it.

what's the millennium gonna look like AoK?
animals sacrifices?
a new temple?
flesh ppl?

 

[Abiding]

 

[Therapon]

It's good to see that this thread has toned down to a less heated level. <smile>

This is probably my final post, and it is to whomever the shoe fits.

On this forum, my views have been so misrepresented and I’ve been lied about so egregiously that to clear the air, here is my theology, vis-à-vis the Jews.

Contrary to popular belief, the observant Jews of the Christian era do trust in Jesus. They call Him their Messiah and they are looking for Him just like you and I are. They just don’t know that He already came here once to die, and they don’t know His New Testament name because they have been sovereignly blinded by God to the New Testament Gospel (Romans 11: 8). But according to some here, the Jews are lost because they don’t have that head knowledge and aren’t worshipping Jesus according to their doctrine.

During World War II, Menachem Begin was a prisoner in the Warsaw ghetto. He watched as those Nazi butchers drove his parents and 500 other Jews into the Warsaw River and machine gunned them down. As the blood of those precious people stained that river red, they had their hands raised toward heaven and were singing that beautifully touching Jewish hymn, “Oh how we love our Messiah and long for his appearance.” So who do you suppose they were singing about?

If you think for one moment that our beloved Savior who died “not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world” didn’t reach down and save those dying Jews who were calling upon Him by the only name they knew, then you indeed serve a different God than I do.

Personally, I’m saddened by the argumentative, disrespectful, doctrinal arrogance that I have been subjected to while here. Angry in spirit sometimes, but it was not my anger. You believe you are born again because you hold doctrines approved by the group. But salvation is not in your doctrines, it is in having a humble and contrite heart towards God, of which I see little. Where are the fruits of the Spirit, the longsuffering, gentleness, mercy, the true indicators that the Lord has replaced your hearts of stone with hearts of flesh?

 

[Abiding]

It's good to see that this thread has toned down to a less heated level. <smile>

This is probably my final post, and it is to whomever the shoe fits.

On this forum, my views have been so misrepresented and I’ve been lied about so egregiously that to clear the air, here is my theology, vis-à-vis the Jews.

Contrary to popular belief, the observant Jews of the Christian era do trust in Jesus. They call Him their Messiah and they are looking for Him just like you and I are. They just don’t know that He already came here once to die, and they don’t know His New Testament name because they have been sovereignly blinded by God to the New Testament Gospel (Romans 11: 8). But according to some here, the Jews are lost because they don’t have that head knowledge and aren’t worshipping Jesus according to their doctrine.

During World War II, Menachem Begin was a prisoner in the Warsaw ghetto. He watched as those Nazi butchers drove his parents and 500 other Jews into the Warsaw River and machine gunned them down. As the blood of those precious people stained that river red, they had their hands raised toward heaven and were singing that beautifully touching Jewish hymn, “Oh how we love our Messiah and long for his appearance.” So who do you suppose they were singing about?

If you think for one moment that our beloved Savior who died “not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world” didn’t reach down and save those dying Jews who were calling upon Him by the only name they knew, then you indeed serve a different God than I do.

Personally, I’m saddened by the argumentative, disrespectful, doctrinal arrogance that I have been subjected to while here. Angry in spirit sometimes, but it was not my anger. You believe you are born again because you hold doctrines approved by the group. But salvation is not in your doctrines, it is in having a humble and contrite heart towards God, of which I see little. Where are the fruits of the Spirit, the longsuffering, gentleness, mercy, the true indicators that the Lord has replaced your hearts of stone with hearts of flesh?

Ok bye, By the way i did like you. But of coarse i didnt agree with you.
Noone agrees with me either alot of the time. Oh well. At least I have my SwissMiss

 

[Therapon]

Ok bye, By the way i did like you. But of coarse i didnt agree with you.
Noone agrees with me either alot of the time. Oh well. At least I have my SwissMiss

I never asked for for agreement or anything else for that natter, but I am considering taking that post and starting a new thread with it, because the attitudes it describes are not unique to this thread.

 

[zone]

Contrary to popular belief, the observant Jews of the Christian era do trust in Jesus. They call Him their Messiah and they are looking for Him just like you and I are. They just don’t know that He already came here once to die, and they don’t know His New Testament name because they have been sovereignly blinded by God to the New Testament Gospel (Romans 11: 8). But according to some here, the Jews are lost because they don’t have that head knowledge and aren’t worshipping Jesus according to their doctrine.

ellis, i've had a change of heart about what i consider false doctrine.
who am i to say?

and what does it really matter.

i'd like to apologize to you. you have every right to teach jews don't know the Name of Jesus.

there must be something really wrong with me, because everywhere i read, and all the jews i talk to know Jesus by Name.

but maybe i'm in a coma or something

sorry about maligning you.
you might be right.



""And it is tradition: On the eve of Passover they hung Jeshu [the Nazarene]. And the crier went forth before him forty days (saying), [Jeshu the Nazarene] goeth forth to be stoned, because he hath practiced magic and deceived and led Israel astray. Anyone who knoweth aught in his favor, let him come and declare concerning him. And they found naught in his favor. And they hung him on the eve of the Passover. Ulla said, 'Would it be supposed that [Jeshu the Nazarene] a revolutionary, had aught in his favor?' He was a deceiver and the Merciful (i.e. God) hath said (Deut. xiii 8), ‘Thou shalt not spare, neither shalt thou conceal him.’ But it was different with [Jeshu the Nazarene] for he was near the kingdom.'" (Sanhedrin 43a)"




Why Jews Don't Believe In Jesus
For 2,000 years Jews have rejected the Christian idea of Jesus as messiah. Why?

One of the most common questions we receive at Aish.com is: "Why don't Jews believe in Jesus?" Let's understand why ― not in order to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish position.

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:

Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

But first, some background: What exactly is the Messiah?

The word "Messiah" is an English rendering of the Hebrew word Mashiach, which means "anointed." It usually refers to a person initiated into God's service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, 1-Kings 1:39, 2-Kings 9:3)

1. Jesus Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? One of the central themes of biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

Specifically, the Bible says he will:

Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world ― on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.

Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming. Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.
____________________

2) Jesus Did Not Embody the Personal Qualifications of Messiah

A. Messiah as Prophet
The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides - Yad Teshuva 9:2)

Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews remained in Babylon, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets ― Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended, and thus could not be a prophet.

B. Descendent of David
Many prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father ― and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David. (1)

According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (2) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

C. Torah Observance
The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"
____________________

3) Mistranslated Verses "Referring" to Jesus
Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text ― which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. Virgin Birth
The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. Suffering Servant
Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture, Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the "Servant of God" (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel.

When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly [and ironically] refers to the Jewish people being "bruised, crushed and as sheep brought to slaughter" at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44).

Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognize and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews.

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4) Jewish Belief is Based Solely on National Revelation

Throughout history, thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that he or she is God's true prophet. But personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion because one can never know if it is indeed true. Since others did not hear God speak to this person, they have to take his word for it. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs miracles, they do not prove he is a genuine prophet. All the miracles show ― assuming they are genuine ― is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his claim of prophecy.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

Of the thousands of religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation ― i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Why Jews Don't Believe In Jesus, why Jews reject Jesus < click

etc etc.

 

[zone]

I never asked for for agreement or anything else for that natter, but I am considering taking that post and starting a new thread with it, because the attitudes it describes are not unique to this thread.

i'll support you ellis.
why not?

maybe Daniel's 70th week is different.
if you say it is, that should be good enough.

i'll have to hit the books again.
maybe i'll re-read yours.
i apologize for all the trouble.

maybe there are Two Covenants.

 

[cfultz3]

Mr. Therapon,

As long as their is divisions which divides, there will always be those who think their truth is the right Truth, and that includes you and I. We either accept that or we would soon doubt our own salvation, although we call upon the same Christ send from the Father.

 

[Abiding]

I never asked for for agreement or anything else for that natter, but I am considering taking that post and starting a new thread with it, because the attitudes it describes are not unique to this thread.

Too late you were going, surely you wernt just faking it for attention

 

[cfultz3]

Too late you were going, surely you wernt just faking it for attention

This is probably my final post

 

[Therapon]

i'll support you ellis.
why not?

maybe Daniel's 70th week is different.
if you say it is, that should be good enough.

i'll have to hit the books again.
maybe i'll re-read yours.
i apologize for all the trouble.

maybe there are Two Covenants.

Thank you Zone, go in peace.

 

[Therapon]

Too late you were going, surely you wernt just faking it for attention

It is that negativity thaty shrivels my spirit, and NO, I was not faking. I am only here to see if there were any godly replise and surprise, surprise, Zone was kindly, for which I thanked her.