Can Someone Explain Rev. 12:1-6 to Me?

[eternally-gratefull]

This passage from Daniel is not talking about Jesus fulfilling the Old Covenant, he did that when the New Covenant was instituted at Calvary.

I never said it was.. it is abiding and zone and those like them who are claiming this

This passage of Daniel was about Jesus confirming to the Christian Jews that God had fulfilled his promise of making a New Covenant with them, and he did that by taking away the things God had provided for the observance of the Old Covenant, at exactly the time and in exactly the manner the Law and the Prophets had foretold. That was the confirmation to the Jewish Christians who might have had any lingering doubts that Jesus was indeed the Messiah and the New Covenant had indeed been established, else nothing, not Rome nor all the forces of hell itself could have destroyed God's Temple and Holy City.

Sorry it is not even this

Daniel was praying, because his city was destroyed, and his people were still in sin, and according to jeremiah;s prophesy, the 70 years of captivity in punishment was nearing an end.

Gabriel was answering daniel concerning the city of Jerusalem. and the sin of his people. He told Daniel

1. When the people of Isreal would stop rebelling (and end of sin)
2. When the city would be returned to glory, and not be under gentile rule

people want to take context out, and twist it to mean something it is not..

DANIEL NEVER PRAYED FOR HIS PEOPLES SALVATION. HE PRAYED FOR GOD TO SHOW MERCY TO THEM ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE

Gabriel came to answer his prayer. Yuo can;t twist it and make the answer NOT FIT THE PRAYER. God does not do this

And even further, the fact that all these things were accomplished exactly as they had been foretold thousands of years before, and that they were accomplished in the generation of Jesus' coming is proof and confirmation that Jesus Christ is indeed the Son of God!

The only aspect of daniel 9 which proves or even shows Jesus is the messiah is he entered jerusalem exactly 69 weeks to the day from the command to restore the city.. there is no other messianic aspects to this prophesy,, but the ones people add. Daniel was not praying for the messiah, He knew he would come.. He knew he would fulfill the covenant and save his people. He knew all he would do.. This was not the context of what he was praying for. And god did not have to re-iterate something daniel ALREADY knew

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

[SUP]26 [/SUP]“And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

Fulfilled By the death of Christ. one week after the 69th week ended

And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

fulfilled in 70 AD.. 37 years after the 69th week ended (thus you already have a gap in this prophesy)

The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Then end of this desolation will be a time when war desolations are determined. We are not given the time, and thus it is unknown.. We already know it began 37 years after the 69th week ended.. And we aer not told when it will end.. Thus the gap is unknown.. it could be tens of years (already 37) it could be hundreds, it could be thousands..

When we will know when it is coming to an end?

[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then (after the war desolations are determined) he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

we know from Christ, who said after this there will be great tribulation, or distress. We know from daniels prophesies and other OT prophesies the amount of time this will occur.. 3.5 years. The consumation would be the consuming of prophesies concerning the gentile nations who would trample jerusalem, or the age of the gentile

and we also know after this,, when the age of the gentile is complete. ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED (rom 11)

It is then that the "end of sin" will be made for daniel's peoipel (isreal) and his city (jerusalem)

It all fits very well.. If one just looks at it..

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I hear you. I too try to get as close as possible. I've seen so much nonsense from neo-revisionists trying to make a name for themselves or even just finish a PhD which, as you know, requires one to bring something new to the table but far too often is a fictionalized, contrived, politically correct "new" that doesn't really exist. I like history and am looking forward to reading more of your posts. Though it's not required, or even expected really, in an informal forum like this if you do have a sterling resource on a particular topic under discussion be sure to share it as a favor so we can check it out. Thank you and peace.

I have found that there tend to be scholars aplenty to support most any view one can imagine.

Seriously though, that's why I tend to focus my studies on historical and archaeological sources, both of which are closer to the times and events ~

Peace to you as well,
In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

peterT, I'm going to send you a friend request. Consider me your first friend. We're going to make it work. It's natural for bucks to lock horns at times but in Christianity there is God's love for one another and that also honors Christ and His sacrifice. Peace.

 

[Pilgrimer]

I hear you. I too try to get as close as possible. I've seen so much nonsense from neo-revisionists trying to make a name for themselves or even just finish a PhD which, as you know, requires one to bring something new to the table but far too often is a fictionalized, contrived, politically correct "new" that doesn't really exist. I like history and am looking forward to reading more of your posts. Though it's not required, or even expected really, in an informal forum like this if you do have a sterling resource on a particular topic under discussion be sure to share it as a favor so we can check it out. Thank you and peace.

I tend to cite my sources anyway, even in an informal forum like this, primarily because I have seen so many terrible distortions of history offered up as simple statements of fact with not one shred of actual historical or archaeological evidence, which all too often completely contradicts the statements being made, but secondarily because I do not expect, and would much prefer, that no one take my word for things but base their views on the best available evidence. That way my brothers and sisters in Christ are themselves equipped to "defend the faith once delivered."

I'm with you on love of history, and I would add archaeology. They have been a particular passion of mine for many years so I have copious notes and a virtual bibliography of sources, which I will be happy to share at every opportunity! But I have also been fortunate to work for the Israel Antiquities Authority so I try to keep up-to-date on recent developments.

Looking forward to some friendly discussion, generous sharing, but most of all some really great fellowship!

Till then ~

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[1Christianwarrior316]

Have you got any scripture to back that up, or are you just making it up?

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefull use you, and persecute you;
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

The muslims have declared jihad on all Christians, so while I do not consider anyone including muslims my enemy, but instead consider them to be an enemy of the gospel it is obvious they consider us to be theirs. Doesn't scripture tell us to love our enemies, even if we don't choose for them to be an enemy? Doesn't scripture tell us to spread the gospel to everyone? Doesn't showing the truth of the gospel demonstrate our love to those who choose to be our enemies? Do you have any scripture that shows doulos is wrong or are you just making it up as usual because you don't have anything productive to add to the conservation?

1Christianwarrior316

 

[doulos]

I haven't heard him say that. Obviously one cannot hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, reject Christ, and never repent dying in that condition and go to heaven. BUT, for people that never heard of Christ but followed their conscience there are different schools of thought on this within Christendom. A number of orthodox Christian theologians have written books asking the following questions and providing some very interesting answers from both the Old and New Testaments:

Why has God allowed other religions? Can they serve any purpose? Can a person who never heard of Christ yet believes in right and seeks it with their conscience believing in God as they understand Him find forgiveness?

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Are those who have never heard the gospel in transgression even if they worship God who created all despite the fact that have never been introduced? Can they still have the circumcision of heart that comes with being born again?

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear: ) unto this day.

Are the Jews who have been sovereignly blinded until the fulness of the gentiles comes in that have returned to the only Scriptures they are allowed to see (Old Testament) in transgression? Could they be born again by placing their faith in the coming Messiah?

If not then how do you explain how one can be an enemy of the gospel and still be elect?
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

 

[1Christianwarrior316]

peterT, I'm going to send you a friend request. Consider me your first friend. We're going to make it work. It's natural for bucks to lock horns at times but in Christianity there is God's love for one another and that also honors Christ and His sacrifice. Peace.

Like you I tried to befriend peterT a few months ago and like you I hope that he will one day accept my friend request. For I believe that even though we may disagree on various things we are all still apart of the same body, and that body is the body of Christ!

In Christ, 1Christianwarrior316

 

[Abiding]

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Are those who have never heard the gospel in transgression even if they worship God who created all despite the fact that have never been introduced? Can they still have the circumcision of heart that comes with being born again?

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear: ) unto this day.

Are the Jews who have been sovereignly blinded until the fulness of the gentiles comes in that have returned to the only Scriptures they are allowed to see (Old Testament) in transgression? Could they be born again by placing their faith in the coming Messiah?

If not then how do you explain how one can be an enemy of the gospel and still be elect?
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Please give more context. Im pretty sure you dont understand the timing of the text. Of slumber, fullness etc.
But at least a bit more context along with your pretext and out of text verses would serve to make a truer picture

Romans 11:19-24

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Just a guess but what i dont think you see is that your quoting from the effect rather then the cause.
Also not seeing the time span. Also not seeing its individual not corporate. And that the same applies to gentiles.

 

[doulos]

Please give more context. Im pretty sure you dont understand the timing of the text. Of slumber, fullness etc.
But at least a bit more context along with your pretext and out of text verses would serve to make a truer picture

Romans 11:19-24

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Just a guess but what i dont think you see is that your quoting from the effect rather then the cause.
Also not seeing the time span. Also not seeing its individual not corporate. And that the same applies to gentiles.

Abiding we have discussed this before, no point going there again. I have explained my views on how one can be an enemy of the gospel yet still be elect numerous times. I understand you believe all was fulfilled in 70AD, a position you are fully aware I disagree with. From my perspective the only prophecy fulfilled in 70AD was the destruction of a desolate temple that Christ said was already desolate approximately 40 years before. I don't see the destruction of a desolate temple as the abomination of desolation.. While the events of 70 AD were certainly horrific they pale in comparison to the desolation bestowed upon Jerusalem by approximately 1300 years of islamic control where Jerusalems population dropped to a low of 550 people. Nor do I see an abomination still standing as a result of 70AD but I can see the dome of the rock still standing. Maybe it is time you and I agree to disagree instead of continuing to beat a dead horse.

 

[zone]

I never said it was.. it is abiding and zone and those like them who are claiming this

hold on EG...
please be careful to know what i have said.
i said Jesus fulfilled Daniel 9.
His life and death are described in 9.
Pilgrimer is right, Calvary is where it happened.

and this is where it (Calvary) is mentioned:

Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

also described are the Promises Fulfilled for the remnant,
and also described is 70AD when the Covenant Curses Christ had proclaimed came down on those who rejected Him.

 

[zone]

peterT, I'm going to send you a friend request. Consider me your first friend. We're going to make it work. It's natural for bucks to lock horns at times but in Christianity there is God's love for one another and that also honors Christ and His sacrifice. Peace.

Peter makes some good posts.
i believe he's wrong about his eschatology, but what i believe counts for zero.
let's all just get along.

some of us can be dispensationalists, and some arians, some can be reformed, or catholic, or mystics.
as long we stop judging anything,
God will be pleased.

 

[zone]

rose petals and werther's for all!

 

[zone]

hold on EG...
please be careful to know what i have said.
i said Jesus fulfilled Daniel 9.
His life and death are described in 9.
Pilgrimer is right, Calvary is where it happened.

and this is where it (Calvary) is mentioned:

Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

also described are the Promises Fulfilled for the remnant,
and also described is 70AD when the Covenant Curses Christ had proclaimed came down on those who rejected Him.

edit:
but i could be, and am likely totally wrong about this also ^


my main goal now is to just love everyone regardless of anything, especially doctrine.
but first i must cease all known sin and purify my heart.
head knowledge has been holding me back.
making me sin i guess.

i want to be saved.

if anyone can help, please pm me.

what must i do to be saved?

 

[Abiding]

Abiding we have discussed this before, no point going there again. I have explained my views on how one can be an enemy of the gospel yet still be elect numerous times. I understand you believe all was fulfilled in 70AD, a position you are fully aware I disagree with. From my perspective the only prophecy fulfilled in 70AD was the destruction of a desolate temple that Christ said was already desolate approximately 40 years before. I don't see the destruction of a desolate temple as the abomination of desolation.. While the events of 70 AD were certainly horrific they pale in comparison to the desolation bestowed upon Jerusalem by approximately 1300 years of islamic control where Jerusalems population dropped to a low of 550 people. Nor do I see an abomination still standing as a result of 70AD but I can see the dome of the rock still standing. Maybe it is time you and I agree to disagree instead of continuing to beat a dead horse.

I am not talking about 70 ad or anything else you talking about here.
reread, my reason for adding text to your verses was to take out your
forced opinion....thats all nothing else

 

[Abiding]

edit:
but i could be, and am likely totally wrong about this also ^


my main goal now is to just love everyone regardless of anything, especially doctrine.
but first i must cease all known sin and purify my heart.
head knowledge has been holding me back.
making me sin i guess.

i want to be saved.

if anyone can help, please pm me.

what must i do to be saved?

Just this:

 

[zone]

Just this:

just a group hug?
that's the Gospel?
is that the circle of righteousness?
hmmm...there might be sin in the middle of that group.
that can't be it.

come on mike.
seriously.

what must i do to be saved?

 

[Abiding]

just a group hug?
that's the Gospel?
is that the circle of righteousness?
hmmm...there might be sin in the middle of that group.
that can't be it.

come on mike.
seriously.

what must i do to be saved?

 

[tribesman]

Just this:

Or this:

 

[Radius]

[h=3]Satan Thrown Out of Heaven[/h][SUP]7 [/SUP]And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, [SUP]8 [/SUP]but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[SUP][a][/SUP] in heaven any longer. [SUP]9 [/SUP]So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

OK SO IS SATAN STILL IN HEAVEN? Why does this say that he will be cast out if he is already supposedly cast out?

 

[1still_waters]

Satan Thrown Out of Heaven

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, [SUP]8 [/SUP]but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[SUP][a][/SUP] in heaven any longer. [SUP]9 [/SUP]So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

OK SO IS SATAN STILL IN HEAVEN? Why does this say that he will be cast out if he is already supposedly cast out?

Rev 1:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

Revelation may not be a linear from start to beginning sequence of events. Like Isaiah it may go forward, then back and such. Maybe satan cast down is part of the "what is now" aspect of it?