The Trinity

[mark54]

How come you people who make demands that even the ministers won't make in your churches are languishing on the internet?

It must be hard for you, knowing your ministers won't preach the truth(according to you)
IT nust be very frustrating for you, knowing the truth yourself, and seeing your ministers in most cases remaining silent as to what you believe is vital belief to inherit eternal life

You know, I got a sneaking suspicion that some of you reckon you should be in the pulpit instead of them

 

[asd]

1. Say (O Muhammad ): "He is Allâh, (the) One.[SUP][1][/SUP]

2. "Allâh-us-Samad ) [Allâh the Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, (He neither eats nor drinks)].

3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten.[SUP][2][/SUP]


4. "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."

 

[mark54]

You justed used even more Trinitarian rendered scriptures to prove my point...thanks!

Bowman

Have you heard of Walter Mitty?

 

[JLHillsSr]

He did manifest in human form, however...

only in prophesy.
Exd 3:2 KJV - And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed.

Exd 3:4 KJV - And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here [am] I.



Only after Moses turned aside did God speak.

 

[mark54]

[SUP] [/SUP]Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a “fool” so that he may become wise. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[SUP][a][/SUP]; [SUP]20 [/SUP]and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile

 

[mark54]

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, [SUP]23 [/SUP]but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, [SUP]24 [/SUP]but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. [SUP]27 [/SUP]But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. [SUP]28 [/SUP]He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, [SUP]29 [/SUP]so that no one may boast before him. [SUP]30 [/SUP]It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”[SUP][d][/SUP]

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Re: Complete ownership...

Who is God?

Who is Savior?

Titus 2.13

προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα και επιφανειαν της δοξης του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων χριστου ιησου

prosdechomenoi tēn makarian elpida kai epiphaneian tēs doxēs tou megalou theou kai sōtēros hēmōn christou iēsou

Looking for the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

2 Peter 1.1

σιμων πετρος δουλος και αποστολος ιησου χριστου τοις ισοτιμον ημιν λαχουσιν πιστιν εν δικαιοσυνη του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου

simōn petros doulos kai apostolos iēsou christou tois isotimon hēmin lachousin pisten en dikaiosunē tou theou hēmōn kai sōtēros iēsou christou

Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those equally precious with us, having obtained faith in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Greek grammar mandates that Jesus is both God and Savior in the above verses.

Jesus is the God-man.

Jesus is the Savior-man.

Thus, when we come to the next example, we can easily see that God and Savior both apply to Jesus, as well.

1 Tim 2.3 - 5

For this is good and acceptable before God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of Truth. For God is one, also there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Jesus is the God-man.

Jesus is the Savior-man.

Further, ‘Truth’ also applies to Jesus.

God and his Son are both referred to as saviors which makes perfect sense because God is the originator of the plan of salvation and is very active in our salvation. Jesus Christ, His Son carried out God's plan for salvation.

God is shown raising up "saviors/delieverers" to rescue Israel throughout history: Neh. 9:27; 2 Kings 13:4; Isaiah 19:20; Obadiah 21.

So it would be incorrect to say that just because God and Christ are both called "Savior" that they are one and the same.

Jesus Christ is The way - to God. . . Jesus Christ is the truth because he always spoke the words God the Father gave him to speak. . . and Jesus Christ is life because belief in him gives eternal life.

 

[Bowman]

1. Say (O Muhammad ): "He is Allâh, (the) One.[SUP][1][/SUP]

2. "Allâh-us-Samad ) [Allâh the Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, (He neither eats nor drinks)].

3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten.[SUP][2][/SUP]


4. "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."

This Islamic one-hit wonder sura does absolutely nothing to support the Muslim mindset.

Both verbs used in 112.3 (i.e. يلد & يولد), are each in the imperfect tense.

This clearly is referring to incomplete action.

It is not referring to completed action.

This statement is only telling us that there will be no more children (i.e. Son’s) of “allah”, from here on out.

Sura 112 never once denies that “allah” had a Son in the past.

And…

Sure enough, 4.171 confirms that he did indeed have a Son.

 

[Bowman]

only in prophesy.
Exd 3:2 KJV - And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed.

Exd 3:4 KJV - And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here [am] I.



Only after Moses turned aside did God speak.

Mark 12:26,
Jesus said "But about the dead rising, have you never read in the book of Moses in the account of the bush how God said to him 'I am the God of Abraham'?"




Jesus is quoting Himself, God the Son, as thus…



Exodus 3.1 - 6

And Moses was feeding the flock of his father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock behind the wilderness and came to the mountain of The Gods, to Horeb. And Malek Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the middle of a thorn bush. And he looked, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, and the thorn bush was not burned up! And Moses said, I will turn aside now and see this great sight, why the thorn bush is not burned up. And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and Elohim called to him from the midst of the thorn bush, and said, Moses! Moses! And he said, Behold me. And He said, Do not come near here. Pull off your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. And He said, I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he feared to look upon The Gods.


These verses tell us plainly that Moses both saw and spoke with Malek Yahweh (i.e. God the Son) in the midst of the fire.

Observe that the Triune God occupies the Mount (Moses came to the mountain of all The Gods ‘Ha- Elohim’), as the terms Yahweh, Elohim, Malek Yahweh & Ha- Elohim (literally all The Gods!) are used interchangeably.

Who occupied the burning bush?

• Malek Yahweh
• Yahweh
• Elohim
• The Gods (Ha Elohim)







That Malek Yahweh is actually Yahweh, and that Moses spoke to Malek Yahweh, is proven in these verses, as thus…



Deut 4.15 - 19

Therefore you shall carefully watch over your souls, for you have not seen any likeness in the day Yahweh spoke to you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire, that you not deal corruptly, and make for yourselves a graven image, a likeness of any figure, the form of a male or female, the form of any animal in the earth; the form of any winged bird that flies in the heavens; the form of any creeping thing on the ground; the form of any fish in the waters under the earth; and that you not lift up your eyes towards the heavens and shall see the sun, and the heavens, and you be drawn away and worship them, and serve them; which Yahweh Elohim has allotted to all the peoples under all the heavens.





It really should not come as any surprise that Moses saw and spoke to The Son, as the NT also records that Abraham did likewise…


John 8.56 – 58

Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced.Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham?Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!

 

[JLHillsSr]

How come you people who make demands that even the ministers won't make in your churches are languishing on the internet?

It must be hard for you, knowing your ministers won't preach the truth(according to you)
IT nust be very frustrating for you, knowing the truth yourself, and seeing your ministers in most cases remaining silent as to what you believe is vital belief to inherit eternal life

You know, I got a sneaking suspicion that some of you reckon you should be in the pulpit instead of them

It is however a demand of most ministers that sin is the issue and that it cancels salvation.

 

[JLHillsSr]

Mark 12:26,
Jesus said "But about the dead rising, have you never read in the book of Moses in the account of the bush how God said to him 'I am the God of Abraham'?"



Jesus is quoting Himself, God the Son, as thus…



Exodus 3.1 - 6

And Moses was feeding the flock of his father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock behind the wilderness and came to the mountain of The Gods, to Horeb. And Malek Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the middle of a thorn bush. And he looked, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, and the thorn bush was not burned up! And Moses said, I will turn aside now and see this great sight, why the thorn bush is not burned up. And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and Elohim called to him from the midst of the thorn bush, and said, Moses! Moses! And he said, Behold me. And He said, Do not come near here. Pull off your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. And He said, I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he feared to look upon The Gods.


These verses tell us plainly that Moses both saw and spoke with Malek Yahweh (i.e. God the Son) in the midst of the fire.

Observe that the Triune God occupies the Mount (Moses came to the mountain of all The Gods ‘Ha- Elohim’), as the terms Yahweh, Elohim, Malek Yahweh & Ha- Elohim (literally all The Gods!) are used interchangeably.

Who occupied the burning bush?

• Malek Yahweh
• Yahweh
• Elohim
• The Gods (Ha Elohim)







That Malek Yahweh is actually Yahweh, and that Moses spoke to Malek Yahweh, is proven in these verses, as thus…



Deut 4.15 - 19

Therefore you shall carefully watch over your souls, for you have not seen any likeness in the day Yahweh spoke to you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire, that you not deal corruptly, and make for yourselves a graven image, a likeness of any figure, the form of a male or female, the form of any animal in the earth; the form of any winged bird that flies in the heavens; the form of any creeping thing on the ground; the form of any fish in the waters under the earth; and that you not lift up your eyes towards the heavens and shall see the sun, and the heavens, and you be drawn away and worship them, and serve them; which Yahweh Elohim has allotted to all the peoples under all the heavens.





It really should not come as any surprise that Moses saw and spoke to The Son, as the NT also records that Abraham did likewise…


John 8.56 – 58

Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced.Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham?Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!

You are confusing deity for humanity. Jehovah spoke not Jesus. Jesus was silent, allowing Jehovah to speak. Take into consideration that John, God's beloved, never spoke of himself in his Gospel.

 

[mark54]

It is however a demand of most ministers that sin is the issue and that it cancels salvation.

I agree with you, but i have never heard the Gospel of Grace Paul plainly wrote, fully preached in any church I have been to, that is tragic, and a far more imnortant subject in reality that this one(apart from it must be said the extra biblical demands made for salvation by a few)

 

[cfultz3]

something to ponder:

I just realized that even Muslims condemn Christians as polytheists for saying that Jesus is God, just as the Jews picked up stones against Jesus for having equated Himself to God.

 

[mark54]

We know who the Pharisees believed Jesus claimed to be:

The Jews insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”

John19:7

Note, they did not say Christ claimed to be God Himself

But that should not be too hard for the scholar and theologian to get round

 

[Bowman]

You are confusing deity for humanity. Jehovah spoke not Jesus. Jesus was silent, allowing Jehovah to speak. Take into consideration that John, God's beloved, never spoke of himself in his Gospel.

As amply demonstrated, scripture disagrees with your opinion of it...

 

[Bowman]

something to ponder:

I just realized that even Muslims condemn Christians as polytheists for saying that Jesus is God, just as the Jews picked up stones against Jesus for having equated Himself to God.

Jews and Muslims are not that far apart....they are both ignorant of their scriptures...

 

[mark54]

As amply demonstrated, scripture disagrees with your opinion of it...

How would you know?







Scripturally prove it.





Scripturally prove it.






Scripturally prove it.






Scripturally prove it.








[/B]The Trinity shares the same name.

Study up!



Amply demonstrated as in the above Bowman?

 

[Bowman]

Re: Complete ownership...

God and his Son are both referred to as saviors which makes perfect sense because God is the originator of the plan of salvation and is very active in our salvation. Jesus Christ, His Son carried out God's plan for salvation.

God is shown raising up "saviors/delieverers" to rescue Israel throughout history: Neh. 9:27; 2 Kings 13:4; Isaiah 19:20; Obadiah 21.

So it would be incorrect to say that just because God and Christ are both called "Savior" that they are one and the same.

Jesus Christ is The way - to God. . . Jesus Christ is the truth because he always spoke the words God the Father gave him to speak. . . and Jesus Christ is life because belief in him gives eternal life.

Which God?

God the Father....or...God the Spirit?

 

[mark54]

That's true about Muslims and it would be true for us if Jesus is not God on earth, but as you say Jesus equated himself with God and we follow Jesus, which is why I cannot understand those who deny the deity of Jesus.

As previously said to you
I believe Christ has diety, so did Arius
So do you beliueve Arius to have been a Christian?

Or is diety not the most important thing here?

 

[mark54]

Re: Complete ownership...

Which God?

God the Father....or...God the Spirit?

Bowman, as you are well read of experts

Can you tell me?

Who is the God of the one true omnipotent God?
Who is the God who the one true omnipotent God must refer to as 'My God'