Imputed Righteousness of Christ

[zone]

WOW!! What a lot of words!

I think that it is true that salvation, grace, works, etc. are separate concepts that we can look at separately, but I think that they are also dependent on each other. God is Holy, God alone can save us for eternity.

However we can come between grace and salvation with sin.

There should be balance, our thoughts on this should never go to extremes. The ancient sages often went to extremes about works, and with their eyes focused on the works they didn't see the spirit. We must be careful not to do the same thing with spirit. We must not get so focused on the blessed salvation we are offered apart from works that we do not see the part that works play. It is like a contract with God, we have responsibilities in that contract.

what contract?
you were dead in trespasses and sins.

Romans 5:15
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

 

[psychomom]

How many times do you need to be shown that the Lord Jesus came for sinners?

Our only chance at salvation is to admit that we sin, that we are trapped in that sin with no remedy except to cry out to Him and hope that He will change us and pull us out of it.

Salvation is for sinners.

The righteous don't need salvation, do they? They are already righteous.

Now if you could look at the Law the way the Lord has magnified it you would understand there are none that are righteous, but the Lord Jesus.

So you can attempt to come against the faith of some but the fact is we come into the light not as perfectly transformed into the likeness of Christ but as people that want to be transformed into the likeness of Christ.

Who is more thankful to the Lord Jesus, the man who has purged himself of sin, or the man who couldn't do it himself and had to ask for the Lords Help???

Grandpa, FTW!

I love it when you weigh in, my friend.

 

[tribesman]

Grandpa, you are making a fine picture of how righteousness is, but you are leaving out a piece. It is like cutting out a piece of a ball, the ball doesn't bounce unless it is complete. You have forgiveness, faith, and i can see how grace fits in. But this leads to our part in this, and that is listening to Christ. He gives us the Holy Spirit within us, but that does not make us irresponsible robots. It is up to us to act on Christ' leading.

Do you believe that a regenerate soul will NOT act on Christ's leading?

 

[Skinski7]

How many times do you need to be shown that the Lord Jesus came for sinners?

Our only chance at salvation is to admit that we sin, that we are trapped in that sin with no remedy except to cry out to Him and hope that He will change us and pull us out of it.

Salvation is for sinners.

The righteous don't need salvation, do they? They are already righteous.

Now if you could look at the Law the way the Lord has magnified it you would understand there are none that are righteous, but the Lord Jesus.

So you can attempt to come against the faith of some but the fact is we come into the light not as perfectly transformed into the likeness of Christ but as people that want to be transformed into the likeness of Christ.

Who is more thankful to the Lord Jesus, the man who has purged himself of sin, or the man who couldn't do it himself and had to ask for the Lords Help???

Pure rhetoric and a denial of the Scripture.

You folks really do not believe the Bible. All you do is propound rhetoric over and over again and keep falling back on the same key phrases.

Like this one...

How many times do you need to be shown that the Lord Jesus came for sinners?

Somehow in your mind the preaching that one must forsake their sins is equivalent to denying that Jesus came for sinners.

Isaiah said this...

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

As well as this...

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Yet you cling to this lying gospel message where the forsaking of wickedness is not mandatory. Drunks don't have to stop drinking, thieves don't have to stop stealing, child molesters don't have to stop molesting all they have to do is...

...admit that we sin, that we are trapped in that sin with no remedy except to cry out to Him and hope that He will change us and pull us out of it.

You put it ALL on God and throw human responsibility completely out the window. Under your doctrine the sinner just waits on God to change their desires and what is the result? Ongoing sin and rebellion and a DELUSION of forgiveness.

If Paul were to come to your Church and preach "awake to righteousness and sin not" would you throw him out as a heretic for preaching that "he could save himself" or that "he denied grace"? I really think that you would.

Jesus taught things like this...

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
Luk 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
Luk 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
Luk 13:9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Repent or perish. Repent and bear fruit. Yet your message is simply "confess your filth" and then "trust that you are already forgiven." A salvation with no purity. Forgiveness whilst still in rebellion. The Prodigal Son still wallowing in the mud yet soundly saved and forgiven. Washed but still filthy. What is this nonsense? Are you that easily deceived?

Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luk 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

All repentance to you is a "confession of sinfulness" yet the Bible teaches that it is "repentance for remission" and the word itself means a "change of mind" and in the example of the Prodigal Son the "change of mind" necessitated the "change of behaviour" whereby the rebellious son was no longer rebellious and had left the pig pen.

Yes he confessed his sins but he did not simply confess them and keep doing them. He forsook them and returned to his father. Yet your deceptive message is confess and keep doing them and claim forgiveness. What foolishness.

Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

The perfect parallel to...

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Yet to oppose that message and claim that somehow who preaches it is denying a need for Jesus? Come on wake up and stop deluding yourself.

Jesus Christ came to set us free from the dominion sin holds over our heads for the wages of sin is death. Jesus Christ purchased us from that dominion and it is through dying WITH HIM and being RAISED WITH HIM that we also escape the bondage of sin. Jesus bore our sins as our sin offering and DIED, those sins PERISHED WITH HIM. Likewise we are to DIE TO SIN whereby we are raised up to GO AND SIN NO MORE.

Yet you are plainly denying the cross and have bought into this Satanic perversion where the cross is some judicial legal exchange which still leaves you in a filthy rebellious state before God. Instead of being redeemed from iniquity, purified and purged by the blood in order that one can be restored to fellowship with God you hold to doctrines which merely cloaks ongoing filth and rebellion and have God PRETENDING that you are doing the right thing.

So when you say,

Our only chance at salvation is to admit that we sin, that we are trapped in that sin with no remedy except to cry out to Him and hope that He will change us and pull us out of it.

You don't even truly believe that because you deny that the sin even stops after salvation. Your doctrine has this "hope that He will change you and pull you out of it" and yet your theologians will cry "1Joh 1:8" in order uphold a belief that the sin NEVER stops. Therefore you remain wretched sinners the rest of your lives putting an assurance into this forensic legal transaction which you believed took place where Jesus was punished by God in your place and His obedience is credited to you. WHAT NONSENSE!

Jesus came to REDEEM people from iniquity and to PURIFY them, not leave them filthy with some book keeping entry.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

You paint God as weak and you paint the cross as ineffectual in truly making people FREE INDEED.


It blows my mind how anyone can truly reason with themselves, especially in light of what the Scriptures teach, that one can have an ongoing porn addiction and yet be saved and forgiven. Pure foolishness. Saved from what?

 

[Skinski7]

Now if you could look at the Law the way the Lord has magnified it you would understand there are none that are righteous, but the Lord Jesus.

God's saints are RIGHTEOUS because they DO THE RIGHT THING.

You cling to this "Imputed Righteousness of Christ" doctrine when there IS NOT A SINGLE VERSE in the entire Bible which speaks of it. Yet you believe it because false teachers are masters of spin and have tickled your ears.

None righteous????

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

What do you do with that? You you take a big black marker and blot it out in your Bible? Or do you just push it to the back of your mind and pretend it doesn't exist?

Do you know what Paul is quoting in Romans 3? Have you ever gone and looked it up?

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
Psa 14:5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
Psa 14:6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
Psa 14:7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

The context is of the "fool" and the "worker of iniquity" not those who follow God. Yet your teachers will NEVER quote the context. All they do is take a one line snippet and apply it out of context and use it to support their lie. Then YOU buy into that lie because you refuse to dig deep into what the Scriptures actually teach.

In Romans 3 Paul is making the case that BOTH the Jewish people and the Gentile people need a saviour. He IS NOT making the case that no-one can obey God.

 

[Ariel82]

so I guess Skinski is going to ignore my question because then he would have to admit that we are clothed not in our righteousness but CHrist's and that would just not fit into his man made doctrines....

Psalm 71 n

71 In You, O Lord, I put my trust;
Let me never be put to shame.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Deliver me in Your righteousness, and cause me to escape;
Incline Your ear to me, and save me.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Be my strong refuge,
To which I may resort continually;
You have given the commandment to save me,
For You are my rock and my fortress.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Deliver me, O my God, out of the hand of the wicked,
Out of the hand of the unrighteous and cruel man.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For You are my hope, O Lord GOD;
You are my trust from my youth.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]By You I have been upheld from birth;
You are He who took me out of my mother’s womb.
My praise shall be continually of You.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]I have become as a wonder to many,
But You are my strong refuge.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Let my mouth be filled with Your praise
And with Your glory all the day.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Do not cast me off in the time of old age;
Do not forsake me when my strength fails.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For my enemies speak against me;
And those who lie in wait for my life take counsel together,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Saying, “God has forsaken him;
Pursue and take him, for there is none to deliver him.”

[SUP]12 [/SUP]O God, do not be far from me;
O my God, make haste to help me!
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let them be confounded and consumed
Who are adversaries of my life;
Let them be covered with reproach and dishonor
Who seek my hurt.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]But I will hope continually,
And will praise You yet more and more.
[SUP]15[/SUP]My mouth shall tell of Your righteousness
And Your salvation all the day,
For I do not know their limits.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]I will go in the strength of the Lord GOD;
I will make mention of Your righteousness, of Yours only.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]O God, You have taught me from my youth;
And to this day I declare Your wondrous works.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Now also when I am old and grayheaded,
O God, do not forsake me,
Until I declare Your strength to this generation,
Your power to everyone who is to come.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Also Your righteousness, O God, is very high,
You who have done great things;
O God, who is like You?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]You, who have shown me great and severe troubles,
Shall revive me again,
And bring me up again from the depths of the earth.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]You shall increase my greatness,
And comfort me on every side.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Also with the lute I will praise You—
And Your faithfulness, O my God!
To You I will sing with the harp,
O Holy One of Israel.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]My lips shall greatly rejoice when I sing to You,
And my soul, which You have redeemed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]My tongue also shall talk of Your righteousness all the day long;
For they are confounded,
For they are brought to shame
Who seek my hurt.

when Paul tells us to put on the armor of God, who's righteousness is your breastplate? Who's helmet of Salvation?

Ephesians 6:13-15


[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, [SUP]15 [/SUP]and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

 

[Skinski7]

so I guess Skinski is going to ignore my question because then he would have to admit that we are clothed not in our righteousness but CHrist's and that would just not fit into his man made doctrines....





when Paul tells us to put on the armor of God, who's righteousness is your breastplate? Who's helmet of Salvation?

Ephesians 6:13-15


[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, [SUP]15 [/SUP]and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Come on Ariel, that is not speaking of being clothed in the righteousness of Christ. Yes we are surrounded by God's righteousness WHEN WE WALK IN IT. It is a standard. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, judgement and RIGHTEOUSNESS. What righteousness? God's standard of righteousness which we are to adhere to. Not a forensic clothe. Righteousness is not a transferable property.

You are desperately trying to find anything to substantiate your Reformed Doctrine.

I think it was you who quoted that "virtue" verse of Jesus out of context wasn't it?

 

[Ariel82]

I was forgiven complete by God through Christ back at the cross before I was ever born here on earth.

Here you assert that you were already forgiven. Your sins were already remitted before you were even born you believe.

I have to admit, I found that statement somewhat concerning as well, but this thread is not about penal subsitution versus the ransom theory of atonement. its about Imputed Righteousness of Christ.

which I have shown in Biblical. If people want to add other things to it, we can discuss those other things in another thread, because I do NOT believe people are forgiven before they are even born or even committed their crimes but neither concept has to do with the Imputed righteousness of Christ which is our breastplate and protects us from the enemies attack.

I do believe people will be lead to stop sinning. if they feel no pull, no drive to become righteous as Jesus taught then they have not truly been born again and they lie to themselves as well as the world. However, I believe God sanctifies, cleanses and clothes us in His Righteousness as we learn to walk in His way. A baby in the womb can do nothing but grow in the nourishment given. A baby in christ who has been born again will drink deeply of the milk which is His word and learn to discern good from evil and eventually be mature in Christ.

God's does not want us to be babes for eternity. He wants us to grow and mature.To diligently add to our faith: virtue, knowledge, self control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love.

2 Peter 1
"[SUP]9 [/SUP]For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins."

We begin with Christ's virtue/ righteousness but we do not end there. We are told to learn and gain wisdom from above.

We through that wisdom learn to control our self and to discern good from evil, we learn to eat MEAT. However, even then it is not the end. We must PERSEVERE unto godliness. we must keep maintaining our self control until we have not only a form but the power/virtue that comes with godliness. not only will we be clothed in Christ's righteousness but at this point we have developed our own proper righteousness. However our righteousness is not for ourselves but for our witness to the world. we maintain and increase it not to our benefit but for the benefit of others. Which is why godliness leads to brotherliness kindness because out of our love we might pray and they might be healed. As Job prayed for his disobedient children, for a while they were hedged in. for a while we can give those around us peace from Satan attacks to repent and turn to God. We are to be light to a lost world. We are to speak words from the living waters that flow from our hearts.

Homewardbound I hope you have learn wisdom from above. I hope you have learned the hurt you cause God by your sins and are truly repentant. God wants us to learn not only the wisdom of NOT sinning but to exercise SELF control unto godliness. It is through His power, His virtue, His righteousness that we learn to persevere. But it is WE who must learn self control unto godliness.

 

[Ariel82]

Come on Ariel, that is not speaking of being clothed in the righteousness of Christ. Yes we are surrounded by God's righteousness WHEN WE WALK IN IT. It is a standard. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, judgement and RIGHTEOUSNESS. What righteousness? God's standard of righteousness which we are to adhere to. Not a forensic clothe. Righteousness is not a transferable property.

You are desperately trying to find anything to substantiate your Reformed Doctrine.

I think it was you who quoted that "virtue" verse of Jesus out of context wasn't it?

you seem just to be blind to it. Jesus is God's righteousness. His Holy Spirit is what clothes and protects people. I don't need to desperately try to find anything. I have the blessed assurance of God's love for me.

The "virtue" verses is not out of content, because virtue IS power. It is power against the darkness. It silences the accusations of Satan.

What power do you think God gives His children?

2 Timothy 1:7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

 

[SarahM777]

Pure rhetoric and a denial of the Scripture.

You folks really do not believe the Bible. All you do is propound rhetoric over and over again and keep falling back on the same key phrases.

You still haven't answered this one yet

"I think you may still leaving one very major part of the equation. (I could be wrong that you leave it out,but I have not heard you say it) Jesus was very clear on it,John mentions some form of the word over 100 times in his gospel. If you know what is at the heart of the gospel you should know what it is."

 

[tribesman]

Jesus is God's righteousness.

There it came! Ty.

 

[Ariel82]

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, judgement and RIGHTEOUSNESS.

bible verses please where it says that HOLY SPIRIT convicts the world of sin and judgement.

 

[Ariel82]

Did you even READ the psalm or do you love your man made doctrines so much you can not even for a moment PRAY and read them without your preconceived notions blinding you?

the psalmist talks only of God's righteousness (His Holy Spirit), God's salvation (who is JESUS) and HIS ALONE.

Whatever axe you have against the reform tradition I don't care. I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the BIBLE.

Psalm 71
[SUP]15[/SUP]My mouth shall tell of Your righteousness
And Your salvation all the day,
For I do not know their limits.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]I will go in the strength of the Lord GOD;
I will make mention of Your righteousness, of Yours only.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]O God, You have taught me from my youth;
And to this day I declare Your wondrous works.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Now also when I am old and grayheaded,
O God, do not forsake me,
Until I declare Your strength to this generation,
Your power to everyone who is to come.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Also Your righteousness, O God, is very high,
You who have done great things;
O God, who is like You?

 

[tribesman]

Did you even READ the psalm or do you love your man made doctrines so much you can not even for a moment PRAY and read them without your preconceived notions blinding you?

People who are full of themselves don't have time for such things. It doesn't even cross their occupied minds.

Sorry for interrupting. Take care.

 

[Ariel82]

bible verses please where it says that HOLY SPIRIT convicts the world of sin and judgement.

here let me help... (and he says I take verses out of context..pssht)

John 16

[h=3][/h][SUP]5 [/SUP]“But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ [SUP]6 [/SUP]But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: [SUP]9 [/SUP]of sin, because they do not believe in Me; [SUP]10 [/SUP]of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; [SUP]11 [/SUP]of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.



[SUP]12 [/SUP]“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. [SUP]13 [/SUP]However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. [SUP]14 [/SUP]He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.[SUP][c][/SUP]

so what is the sin? they did NOT believe in JESUS who is the MESSIAH, the CHrist

what is Righteousness? that JESUS goes to the FATHER. NOT that you walk in the LAW and precepts to makes yourself righteous. no the righteousness that is talked about is JESUS going to the FATHER.

What is the judgement? SATAN has been condemned/judged

how do you twist it to say what you want it to say?

 

[Ariel82]

There it came! Ty.

welcome, I'm going to put on some hymns, pray and clean my house now.

 

[SarahM777]

David wrote this after Nathan confronted him

Psalms 51

Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight;
so you are right in your verdict
and justified when you judge.
[SUP]5[/SUP]Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones you have crushed rejoice.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Hide your face from my sins
and blot out all my iniquity.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then I will teach transgressors your ways,
so that sinners will turn back to you.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God,
you who are God my Savior,
and my tongue will sing of your righteousness.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Open my lips, Lord,
and my mouth will declare your praise.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]My sacrifice, O God, is[SUP][b][/SUP] a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart
you, God, will not despise.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]May it please you to prosper Zion,
to build up the walls of Jerusalem.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Then you will delight in the sacrifices of the righteous,
in burnt offerings offered whole;
then bulls will be offered on your altar.


​

Strange that David (the man after God's own heart) said he was sinful in his mothers womb,before he was even born. He also doesn't say that it's David creating the clean heart but he asks God to create a clean heart in him and for God to renew a right spirit within him.

​

 

[homwardbound]

The above post makes me literally feel sick inside. I have that horrible uneasiness reading it because it really lays out clearly what we are up against in the world today. It is upsetting to read.

There are times when I try to given the benefit of the doubt, "are some of the disagreements semantic issues," "is it just a lack of clarity outwardly but the heart is right," and then SLAM back to reality when I read something like this.

I would like to think that it is written with the best of intentions and from the heart of the person who wrote it. Yet the Spirit behind it is not of God, it simply cannot be because the Spirit of truth will not lead someone to say such things which are so contrary to scripture..

Many people will read it and no doubt agree with the sentiment.

It may feel warm and fuzzy, it may sound like love and mercy, yet does it actually line up with the Bible? Truth is not about emotion or what makes us feel good, truth is about reality, truth is about what is real.

2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


Homwardbound... you have given a very clear testimony of being "saved in your sins." Let's examine what you wrote briefly...


Here you are in bondage to sin yet in deep conviction over it. There was a part of you that abhorred what you were doing yet you compelled to keep doing it. You claim you were continuously at the throne of grace asking for forgiveness again and again.

So now "somehow" you come to the notion that you were actually already forgiven even though you kept engaging in your sin again and again.

What do you do with Scriptures like this Homward???

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

You had clearly not forsaken your way or your thoughts yet "somehow" you concluded that you were already pardoned. What do you do with Isa 55:7 and the other scriptures which teach the same thing?

The reason I ask is because what you are asserting is the DIRECT OPPOSITE of what the Bible teaches. It is the direct opposite of that verse.

I read this statement of yours...



Here you assert that you were already forgiven. Your sins were already remitted before you were even born you believe. I can only assume that you hold to Penal Substitution whereby you believe Jesus absorbed the wrath of God and thus it has been FULLY paid for and thus cannot be held due over your own head. There is no other atonement model which teaches that uncommitted sins are forgiven in advance.

So what do you do when you read "repentance for remission" in the Bible? Do you just dismiss it?

If your experience of being reconciled to God through the blood of Jesus Christ involved realising that you were already forgiven and thus concluding that you were reconciled to God simply by "believing it" (because you trusted in the Finished Work on the Cross) and then you continued to engage in sin then there can be no doubt that your reconciliation experience was false.

It is impossible to be reconciled to God in the midst of rebellion. The Bible is so clear on this...

Do you seriously believe that you can be engaged actively in watching porn and WALKING in the light at the same time????

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


Do you seriously believe that you can enter boldly into the Holy of Holies in the new and living way with a TRUE heart in full assurance of faith whilst still engaged in pornography?

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Your Gospel basically has the Prodigal Son being reconciled to God in the pig pen merely because he is convicted over his sin. The father puts the robe on the son in the pig pen and puts the ring on his finger in the pig pen and then celebrates the restoration of the son. Now that the son is restored the work begins of gradually getting him out of the pig pen.

Isn't that exactly what you are claiming? Are you not claiming you were reconciled in the pig pen? You were forgiven already even though you continued in sin?


I am not trying to insult you or hurt your feelings. I am simply trying to illicit a response regarding how your theology is completely opposite to what the Bible teaches.

Is the Spirit of God really going to contradict the words given us in the Bible? Are God's saints really going to teach the opposite of that in the Bible?

What happens when someone hears your message? Do they also conclude that they are already forgiven whilst they are still engaged in their sin?

Isn't what you are teaching a round about way of telling people that they CAN SIN and not surely die?

Wow!!!! Skinski apparrently you do not understand the Mercy of God. For Christ said it to the religous leaders of that day while here on earth exposing that we all have sinned and no way in and of yourself can anyone make it to heaven by thier own efforts to be righteous. Only God the Father can claim you,me or anyone else righteous and it has always through out time been by Faith in Him Hebrews 11 does well in the explanation
Exodus 33:19And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

It takes begging and pleading, knowing you need God that the onlyother wayto heaven is as a torso:
Matthew 5:29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
Matthew 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matthew 18:8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.



Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
Mark 9:45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.
Psalm 6:2
Have mercy on me, Lord, for I am faint; heal me, Lord, for my bones are in agony.
Psalm 6:9The Lord has heard my cry for mercy; the Lord accepts my prayer.
Psalm 9:13
Lord, see how my enemies persecute me! Have mercy and lift me up from the gates of death,
Psalm 28:2Hear my cry for mercy as I call to you for help, as I lift up my hands toward your Most Holy Place.
Psalm 28:6
Praise be to the Lord, for he has heard my cry for mercy.
Psalm 30:8To you, Lord, I called; to the Lord I cried for mercy:
Psalm 31:22

1. In my alarm I said, “I am cut off from your sight!” Yet you heard my cry for mercy when I called to you for help.
   Psalm 31:21-23 (in Context) Psalm 31 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
2. Psalm 40:11Do not withhold your mercy from me, Lord; may your love and faithfulness always protect me
   Psalm 41:4I said, “Have mercy on me, Lord; heal me, for I have sinned against you.”
   
   Micah 7:18Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.
   
   Micah 6:8He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
   
   Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful,for they will be shown mercy.
   Matthew 9:13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
   Matthew 9:27[ Jesus Heals the Blind and the Mute ] As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed him, calling out, “Have mercy on us, Son of David!”
   Matthew 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.
   Matthew 15:22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
   Matthew 17:15“Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water.
   Matthew 18:33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’
   Matthew 20:30Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!”
   Matthew 20:31The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!”
   Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
   
   I hope you are listening Skinski, there are many more Scriptures concerning MERCY which is what God has had on all not only those that have sought it knowing they are not righteous and in need of the savior Jesus Christ
   Be careful please that you have not become like the Pharisees kicking widows out of thier homes and as well telling others never mind taking care of your parents give tithe here first.
   It is by Mercy that I have anbd am saved even if I sin, never wanting to though, therefore I cast all my cares on Christ through the Holy Ghost, and Father takes care of me showing methe way in him towalk by him wothout Law for he is the Law giverand is why he put the Law in pace to the first chosen so they cpould see thier need that they need God. Was never actually given to te Gentile tha Law that is! Faith in God was given tous the Gentile us without the law naturallly do the Law by trust in God by the Love of God.
   I am sorry that you yourself claiming to be born again are not showing it by preaching the letterr of the Law. I hope you go to God knowing you need God and do see yourself who are under the Law that you can't obey before saved after saved saved
   Ex: for you put ten ping pong balls in a tub of water and hold all ten down under water at the same time with just your hands! impossible yes? that it what God is trying to show by the Law of Moses oh and there are 613 commandments. Also without you showing Mercy suffer a witch and kill her
   I Love you Skinski and am not condemning you I have been shown Mercy for that is what I needed and love Mercy doing my bestand trusting God the Fatrher of Christ to keepme humble and not LEGALISTIC
   homwardbound
   
   
   
   The last sacrifice for sin was and is back at the cross, there is no more shedding of blood and there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood it is wise to read it in Hebrews start at chapter 9 see the new covennan t we are under through the cross through chapter 10 the whole world has been foirgiven at the cross reconciled read romans 5:10 where it states we are saved by the life not the deathand this by MERCY from God and is a free gift

 

[homwardbound]

There is a book called homewardbolund Wow do you know waht it is about?

 

[homwardbound]

ya homewardbound.

Scott has determined you have had a false conversion - are not saved, and that you are a false teacher well.

THanks All I know is to trust God to do in me what I never could do in self. Shall I make it for those that are under the Law and have sought to be righteous by the law as Paul who was Saul who said what that he now copunts it dung trying toobey the law. And if anyone wants to Glory in the Flesh him more in Phillipians 3
Anyway I also have been an Alcoholic and a druggie, and a thief and a liar. I am not deserving of the grace of God.
But God having MERCY on me took me by the hand and led me all across this land. Showed me things, and it all boiled down to LOVE. I thank God everyday for what he has done in and through me. He took me like one would take an onion and peel it, it hurts and one cries, but when one gets to the center it is sweet as can be and worth the effort of working hard to enter his rest as in Hebrews 3 and 4 talks about not entering his rest because of unbelief. From day one it has been whether one believes or not, starting with Adam and Eve when they had doubt. It is by Faith that one is healed as the woman who had menstrual problems for many a years and knew in herself all she had to do was just touch his garment and he Jesus confirmed that it was her faith with out a doubt no ands ifs or buts, this is fact!!!!!
So I say thank you LORD for your Mercy. There was also a woman prayed all Lord have Mercy on me a sinner and there was a a religous person who prayed oh Lord thank You that I am not like that sinner over there how absurd he/ she does not follow the law as I so well pointed out to that sinner how disgusting, God you know your word the Bible. I pay my tithes, I go to Church, I do all that is right and those that do not I kick them out of your Holy Place of worship for I know you can not have sin in your sight you despise sin, thereofre I do what is right
IT is MERCY from God period and God willhave Mercy on whom God will period as well, and it doestake crying out as King David did
Love you all
Thank you all for letting me ramble on what is on my heart