What does "limited atonement" mean?
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C
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
What sort of boast do I have to say I have faith. That does not save me. This does: faith in the Son.
Salvation can only be found in Him. But before He can lead me, I must accept Him and without that acceptance, I would still have His Spirit convicting me to come to Him. Now that faith saves, because I chose Him as Savior.
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
What sort of boast do I have to say I have faith. That does not save me. This does: faith in the Son.
Salvation can only be found in Him. But before He can lead me, I must accept Him and without that acceptance, I would still have His Spirit convicting me to come to Him. Now that faith saves, because I chose Him as Savior.
Jesus, through regeneration, frees those who believe in him from that hostility, insubordination and inability to obey God.
But believers still have the fallen nature, although they have been freed from the power of sin.
And their fallen nature limits their moral power.
For example, does the believer have the moral power to choose to live a completely sinless life?
He does not. But Adam had that power before the fall, and he lost it when he disobeyed God.
So slavery to sin speaks of our fallen nature and the limitations it places on our ability to make all moral choices.
I am having problems with the above Elin. For clearly the emboldened according to what you write refers to the Christian, the person accepted by God. Now if the above is true, the convert must remain a slave to sin, but Paul says this cannot happen:
Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey – whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
But believers still have the fallen nature, although they have been freed from the power of sin.
And their fallen nature limits their moral power.
For example, does the believer have the moral power to choose to live a completely sinless life?
He does not. But Adam had that power before the fall, and he lost it when he disobeyed God.
So slavery to sin speaks of our fallen nature and the limitations it places on our ability to make all moral choices.
I am having problems with the above Elin. For clearly the emboldened according to what you write refers to the Christian, the person accepted by God. Now if the above is true, the convert must remain a slave to sin, but Paul says this cannot happen:
Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey – whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
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G
Every man is given a chance to be saved.
How else can you explain 2 Peter 3:9 , God wants all to come to repentance, so, He is, therefore, patient, 'that none should perish.'
How many times does God use the word, 'perish,' in Scripture?
Does 'persish' mean 'die,' or, 'rot.' Is their a difference?
By virtue of the word 'perish,' we have limited atonement being a spiritual truth.
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Nile:
So the beginning point would be the two opposing interpretations of the Biblical gospel.
1) one is of a God who saves,
2) the other is of a God who enables man to save himself, by choosing to believe.
One makes salvation depend on the work of God, the other on the work/choice of man. One regards faith as part of God's gift of salvation, the other as man's own contribution to salvation by his choice. One gives all the glory of saving believers to God, the other divides the praise between (as the theologian put it) God who built the machinery of salvation, and man, who by believing operates it.
However, the Bible presents God as the whole world's Maker and King, the Creator who is Lord, working all things after the counsel of his own will. The Biblical perspective is a God-centered outlook, which sees the Creator as the source, and means, and end, of everything that is, both in nature and in grace. The whole range of processes and events that take place in the history of God's world are simply the outworking of God's great pre-ordained plan for his creatures and his church. The Bible presents God as sovereign everywhere, including salvation.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Yes, God is sovereign but man makes His mind (and heart) available to accept Him . The Lord leads, but we MUST CHOOSE to follow His leading "...you follow Me." John 21:22
God causes us (gives us a reason) to believe, and, typically, it takes a pretty dire circumstance to get us to.WAKE UP! to His love for us.
So, YES! God saves us, draws us near, causes us to see Him, but God's given man the ability, capacity, to choose Him. He asks us to choose His salvation AFTER He first has chosen us. Right, Scripture, 'You haven't chose Me, I've chosen you.'
So, this is where it gets tricky and controversial, but I don't see why it needs to be. God gives us eternal life, we surely can't send ourselves to.Heaven after we die, God must do it, as Rickshafe said, by His power. It's ALL by His power, again, as Rickshafe said.
But, after we are saved, WE HAVE THE POWER to serve Him or not. That is our choice.
Will we follow His leading, including the understanding of His power in us and what that truly means, what we can do to give glory to God, what fruit we can produce for Him, which all comes by faith He's given us and through faith that we USE for Hisvwork, being that Sfripture says we are His workmanship.
We are with atonement for doing these things and those who fully understand God's grace is through faith will be redeemed when they die.
How else can you explain 2 Peter 3:9 , God wants all to come to repentance, so, He is, therefore, patient, 'that none should perish.'
How many times does God use the word, 'perish,' in Scripture?
Does 'persish' mean 'die,' or, 'rot.' Is their a difference?
By virtue of the word 'perish,' we have limited atonement being a spiritual truth.
------------*-----------
Nile:
So the beginning point would be the two opposing interpretations of the Biblical gospel.
1) one is of a God who saves,
2) the other is of a God who enables man to save himself, by choosing to believe.
One makes salvation depend on the work of God, the other on the work/choice of man. One regards faith as part of God's gift of salvation, the other as man's own contribution to salvation by his choice. One gives all the glory of saving believers to God, the other divides the praise between (as the theologian put it) God who built the machinery of salvation, and man, who by believing operates it.
However, the Bible presents God as the whole world's Maker and King, the Creator who is Lord, working all things after the counsel of his own will. The Biblical perspective is a God-centered outlook, which sees the Creator as the source, and means, and end, of everything that is, both in nature and in grace. The whole range of processes and events that take place in the history of God's world are simply the outworking of God's great pre-ordained plan for his creatures and his church. The Bible presents God as sovereign everywhere, including salvation.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Yes, God is sovereign but man makes His mind (and heart) available to accept Him . The Lord leads, but we MUST CHOOSE to follow His leading "...you follow Me." John 21:22
God causes us (gives us a reason) to believe, and, typically, it takes a pretty dire circumstance to get us to.WAKE UP! to His love for us.
So, YES! God saves us, draws us near, causes us to see Him, but God's given man the ability, capacity, to choose Him. He asks us to choose His salvation AFTER He first has chosen us. Right, Scripture, 'You haven't chose Me, I've chosen you.'
So, this is where it gets tricky and controversial, but I don't see why it needs to be. God gives us eternal life, we surely can't send ourselves to.Heaven after we die, God must do it, as Rickshafe said, by His power. It's ALL by His power, again, as Rickshafe said.
But, after we are saved, WE HAVE THE POWER to serve Him or not. That is our choice.
Will we follow His leading, including the understanding of His power in us and what that truly means, what we can do to give glory to God, what fruit we can produce for Him, which all comes by faith He's given us and through faith that we USE for Hisvwork, being that Sfripture says we are His workmanship.
We are with atonement for doing these things and those who fully understand God's grace is through faith will be redeemed when they die.
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well Elin, truthfully, i was previously Reformed....though never became an actual member of a reformed assembly.
and i still consider myself small r-reformed. but i went back to Luther (for reasons i've already articulated)
but it was the going so far into the parts that i (personally) could not resolve that was a like a wall.
just like understanding millennialism - i could not understand how people saw it in the Bible when it isn't there.
so i had to go and actually study to see. now i know.
and in the doing of that, a lot of what was true popped right out.
comparing is a good thing.
so it's not as though i think anyone should, for example say "oh, i think i'll start with LUTHER, or CALVIN or WESLEY" and just decide to believe what they believe. it didn't work that way for me at all....more like process of elimination...lol
it comes as a result of continually studying, along with comparative studies.
if something is error, and if we stay at it, sooner or later the error will be made known.
if it can not be known (by my limited abilities), i have to rest on it.
which is why i am a Lutheran. because i'm uberlimited.
but that does not in any way negate the passages we are looking at saying whatever they say. my denom sees them also.
but we do not go beyond them from the pulpit. simply because it's not necessary.
that doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that anyone, whether lay person or accomplished theologian shouldn't continue studying all things, if they choose to.
i do not and never have believed in doing the minimum because i'm afraid i'll be responsible for what i discover.
i'd rather face it if i'm in a dead end and retrace my steps than never consider i took a wrong turn.
i am not obligated to own anything i research or look at.
prolly made no sense at all.
LOL
kath
and i still consider myself small r-reformed. but i went back to Luther (for reasons i've already articulated)
but it was the going so far into the parts that i (personally) could not resolve that was a like a wall.
just like understanding millennialism - i could not understand how people saw it in the Bible when it isn't there.
so i had to go and actually study to see. now i know.
and in the doing of that, a lot of what was true popped right out.
comparing is a good thing.
so it's not as though i think anyone should, for example say "oh, i think i'll start with LUTHER, or CALVIN or WESLEY" and just decide to believe what they believe. it didn't work that way for me at all....more like process of elimination...lol
it comes as a result of continually studying, along with comparative studies.
if something is error, and if we stay at it, sooner or later the error will be made known.
if it can not be known (by my limited abilities), i have to rest on it.
which is why i am a Lutheran. because i'm uberlimited.
but that does not in any way negate the passages we are looking at saying whatever they say. my denom sees them also.
but we do not go beyond them from the pulpit. simply because it's not necessary.
that doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that anyone, whether lay person or accomplished theologian shouldn't continue studying all things, if they choose to.
i do not and never have believed in doing the minimum because i'm afraid i'll be responsible for what i discover.
i'd rather face it if i'm in a dead end and retrace my steps than never consider i took a wrong turn.
i am not obligated to own anything i research or look at.
prolly made no sense at all.
LOL
kath
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A
Im in agreement man is born dead spiritually. But trust and obey isnt a concept that needs spiritual
power to act on. And if power is needed God will supply it. Stretch forth thy withered hand!
I agree that the unregenerate are spiritually powerless. Thats why He reaches out to man through
the gospel.
power to act on. And if power is needed God will supply it. Stretch forth thy withered hand!
I agree that the unregenerate are spiritually powerless. Thats why He reaches out to man through
the gospel.
The thing about those who hold to reactionary works to free them from eternal punishment is this -
they seem to believe that Jesus lived a perfect life and died an obedient death so someone might per chance decide to follow Christ.
Like God has His fingers crossed, hoping someone - (just anyone), will take Him up on His promises.
To me it is a highly dubious outlook.
Maybe no one goes to heaven, maybe the whole world does,.....who knows?
It's all up to them.
Seems full of pride toward the creation to me.
they seem to believe that Jesus lived a perfect life and died an obedient death so someone might per chance decide to follow Christ.
Like God has His fingers crossed, hoping someone - (just anyone), will take Him up on His promises.
To me it is a highly dubious outlook.
Maybe no one goes to heaven, maybe the whole world does,.....who knows?
It's all up to them.
Seems full of pride toward the creation to me.
E
and the difference is? if a child does not believe he is in danger (eternal or not) you can force him all you want, he still will not believe, I know, i see it all the time. And if you force them, they will see you as an evil dictator. not as a loving parent.
Which is exactly the lie which satan told to get 1/3 of the angelic creation, and MOST of the human creation to follow him.
Which is exactly the lie which satan told to get 1/3 of the angelic creation, and MOST of the human creation to follow him.
C
Does He force your worship? Did He force Adam and Even in a fellowship? What about 1/3 of the angels? Good loves a contrite heart willing to hearken to His Voice, as those who did not in the wilderness was punished to death. Those who hearkened to Him entered the Promised Land. Likewise, Jesus says, "Come and follow me", and they who will take up their cross will have Him as their Shepherd leading them back Home.
E
they like to live on symbols
Moses held the serpent up high, and said if you look at it, you will live, do not you will die
Many died.. why? if it was so easy that all we had to do is look.. Who forced them to not look at the serpant? better yet, who forced them to look at it?
this is called faith..
A
I agree some ponder for a spell why He would even let dna out from the womb
knowing they would reject Him. I got over that without creating a new doctrine.
The election you are and have been referring to from romans 9 is a mistake from the
very beginning(not saying just romans 9 but it is referred to often). And the verses in that context is not referring to individual salvation.
Alot is built upon that rendering supposing that it is and thats where alot of this comes from.
If this "odiosness" you talk about is a reason to be in this thread i would just leave.
That doesnt bug me. The fact that limited atonement is only one point of view one
that i think has terrible implications and ramifications and not biblical is why id stay.
Plus im taking notes since to discuss this purposely is new to me.
I pick up on patterns and cliches and stuff like that right away. So im taking notes
from the subliminal statements and opposing remarks that presume to know the reason
people dont receive certain doctrines. I think it sorta projects the feeling they had.
So this thread is amazingly helpful to me. Since i never could have guessed why anyone
would believe alot of this from the bible alone.
knowing they would reject Him. I got over that without creating a new doctrine.
The election you are and have been referring to from romans 9 is a mistake from the
very beginning(not saying just romans 9 but it is referred to often). And the verses in that context is not referring to individual salvation.
Alot is built upon that rendering supposing that it is and thats where alot of this comes from.
If this "odiosness" you talk about is a reason to be in this thread i would just leave.
That doesnt bug me. The fact that limited atonement is only one point of view one
that i think has terrible implications and ramifications and not biblical is why id stay.
Plus im taking notes since to discuss this purposely is new to me.
I pick up on patterns and cliches and stuff like that right away. So im taking notes
from the subliminal statements and opposing remarks that presume to know the reason
people dont receive certain doctrines. I think it sorta projects the feeling they had.
So this thread is amazingly helpful to me. Since i never could have guessed why anyone
would believe alot of this from the bible alone.
who is Nile?
can you cite that source with a link please?
when are you going to stop using that passage out of context? to whom is He speaking? Pilate? the Pope?
or the men He went and FOUND that the Father had GIVEN Him (of whom He lost none) and said COME, follow me?
John 6:70
Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"
John 13:18
"I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.'
John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you
John 21
Jesus and the Beloved Apostle
20Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them, the one who had been reclining at table close to him and had said, “Lord, who is it that is going to betray you?” 21When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, “Lord, what about this man?” 22Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!” 23So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”
that's about Peter and John, not you green.
can you cite that source with a link please?
when are you going to stop using that passage out of context? to whom is He speaking? Pilate? the Pope?
or the men He went and FOUND that the Father had GIVEN Him (of whom He lost none) and said COME, follow me?
John 6:70
Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"
John 13:18
"I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.'
John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you
John 21
Jesus and the Beloved Apostle
20Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them, the one who had been reclining at table close to him and had said, “Lord, who is it that is going to betray you?” 21When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, “Lord, what about this man?” 22Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!” 23So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”
that's about Peter and John, not you green.