What does "limited atonement" mean?
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A
Its not in any good hermeneutic to add personal thought to any verse
John 6:65 is a truth to be sure. The problem isnt what Jesus said but
rather whats put into it such as what happened before the Father gave
us to the Son.
Some say we were regenerated then given to the Son....ok good so far.
Then others may say we were regenerated in order to receive the gospel....now thats
where we run off the tracks.
In otherwords enabling is a must. To say that that makes it necessary to be regenerated first
isnt taught in scripture.
Whats in the scripture is that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
John 6:65 is a truth to be sure. The problem isnt what Jesus said but
rather whats put into it such as what happened before the Father gave
us to the Son.
Some say we were regenerated then given to the Son....ok good so far.
Then others may say we were regenerated in order to receive the gospel....now thats
where we run off the tracks.
In otherwords enabling is a must. To say that that makes it necessary to be regenerated first
isnt taught in scripture.
Whats in the scripture is that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
Let me rephrase from: "unregenerate" to "do not believe in God's word regarding election."
And it's not about having a will to choice.
It's about the thinking you believe will necessarily follow in election.
The hearts of those who believe they are elect never go there.
That thinking has no entrance into the mind of those who believe they are elect.
That thinking can exist only in the hearts of those who do not believe God's word regarding his election (Mk 13:20; Ro 8:30).
Notice what comes first in the order of Ro 8:30: predestined--->called--->justified--->glorified.
And it's not about having a will to choice.
It's about the thinking you believe will necessarily follow in election.
The hearts of those who believe they are elect never go there.
That thinking has no entrance into the mind of those who believe they are elect.
That thinking can exist only in the hearts of those who do not believe God's word regarding his election (Mk 13:20; Ro 8:30).
Notice what comes first in the order of Ro 8:30: predestined--->called--->justified--->glorified.
what argument? you have no argument...except corridors of time. which is ludicrous.
the disciples (who knew the messiah was coming - they were given the oracles of God , not the gentiles), were FISHING.
Jesus appeared to THEM and CHOSE them.
if you want to say because He knew they would choose Him, prove it.
the disciples (who knew the messiah was coming - they were given the oracles of God , not the gentiles), were FISHING.
Jesus appeared to THEM and CHOSE them.
if you want to say because He knew they would choose Him, prove it.
C
Thanks for answering.....I am sorry to repeat....but, if we are elected for either for salvation or damnation....then this is the conclusion of the matter:
What does limited atonement mean to you?
--Going by how the words are naturally defined (certain ones are atoned for), several problems come to mind.
If only certain ones are atoned for, then:
1) All those 'whosoever shall believe' are negated.
2) God purposefully allowed others to come into the world for the sole purpose of enduring the second death.
3) No matter how much I desire to follow God, if I am doomed, I am still headed to death and the hope He gave me was false..
4) No matter what one does, if he is destined to Heaven, he will go. (What if Hitler was destined for Heaven?)
5) God would have to be the cause of one's sins so that they would be doomed to death.
6) It negates the Cross and in effect says that God did not love all, but only the elect. (although He says He loves)
7) Jesus did not die for the sins of the world. (although He said He did)
8) God would be unjust to judge the wickedness of the wicked, since He was the cause of it.
9) many more...........................
How do you feel when someone tells you the blood of Christ frees only so many people in the end?
1)That they are basically saying that God is a liar when He sent the Word to be the atoning sacrifice for those who would come to Him in faith.
2) That we are not responsible for our own action, but that, God is solely responsible for wickedness.
3) That we should not walk the straight and narrow path because we will end up where we were destined to be in the first place.
And, God already knows who will be saved and who won't?
--He knows the beginning from the end. But, He is not cause of one committing sin. Although, He can and does use people wicked or good to do His will, but He already knew what they would have done. He just uses that action He foreknew they would do for His purpose.
....before I am damned again by you and that other godly judge.....I am exiting
What does limited atonement mean to you?
--Going by how the words are naturally defined (certain ones are atoned for), several problems come to mind.
If only certain ones are atoned for, then:
1) All those 'whosoever shall believe' are negated.
2) God purposefully allowed others to come into the world for the sole purpose of enduring the second death.
3) No matter how much I desire to follow God, if I am doomed, I am still headed to death and the hope He gave me was false..
4) No matter what one does, if he is destined to Heaven, he will go. (What if Hitler was destined for Heaven?)
5) God would have to be the cause of one's sins so that they would be doomed to death.
6) It negates the Cross and in effect says that God did not love all, but only the elect. (although He says He loves)
7) Jesus did not die for the sins of the world. (although He said He did)
8) God would be unjust to judge the wickedness of the wicked, since He was the cause of it.
9) many more...........................
How do you feel when someone tells you the blood of Christ frees only so many people in the end?
1)That they are basically saying that God is a liar when He sent the Word to be the atoning sacrifice for those who would come to Him in faith.
2) That we are not responsible for our own action, but that, God is solely responsible for wickedness.
3) That we should not walk the straight and narrow path because we will end up where we were destined to be in the first place.
And, God already knows who will be saved and who won't?
--He knows the beginning from the end. But, He is not cause of one committing sin. Although, He can and does use people wicked or good to do His will, but He already knew what they would have done. He just uses that action He foreknew they would do for His purpose.
....before I am damned again by you and that other godly judge.....I am exiting
E
I must disagree.
People looked because they trusted. They did not look, then have faith. it was those who did not look that did not have faith, or they would have looked, they were to worried about themselves looking down so they could see what where they were going 9trying to save themselves) instead of blindly looking at the serpant (thus God) (faith is a hope which is NOT SEEN) and letting God lead them.
People looked because they trusted. They did not look, then have faith. it was those who did not look that did not have faith, or they would have looked, they were to worried about themselves looking down so they could see what where they were going 9trying to save themselves) instead of blindly looking at the serpant (thus God) (faith is a hope which is NOT SEEN) and letting God lead them.
It might be. But you would have to be pretty naive not to see, that if a person believed:
But believers still have the fallen nature, although they have been freed from the power of sin.
And their fallen nature limits their moral power.
For example, does the believer have the moral power to choose to live a completely sinless life?
He does not
They would, inevitably at times fall back on the above as an excuse for sin
But believers still have the fallen nature, although they have been freed from the power of sin.
And their fallen nature limits their moral power.
For example, does the believer have the moral power to choose to live a completely sinless life?
He does not
They would, inevitably at times fall back on the above as an excuse for sin
okay...what about this though mike - go to the calling (which yesterday you said you had the scoop on, so i should be patient until i see that - because that can shut this whole thing down for me...if i see that calling part...that the calling is not of God also, or is man's part in it.....i dunno
):
Acts 3:9
New International Version (©1984)
The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
English Standard Version (©2001)
For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
For the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
International Standard Version (©2012)
For this promise belongs to you and your children, as well as to all those who are distant, whom the Lord our God may call to himself."
i'll try not to ask you many more questions, because i really only have a few
this would be one of them.
and how to discuss it without using terms from some denoms that sidetrack everything before it gets going.
anyways....mebee i go to News and Poetry for a spell.
):Acts 3:9
New International Version (©1984)
The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
English Standard Version (©2001)
For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
For the promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
International Standard Version (©2012)
For this promise belongs to you and your children, as well as to all those who are distant, whom the Lord our God may call to himself."
i'll try not to ask you many more questions, because i really only have a few
this would be one of them.
and how to discuss it without using terms from some denoms that sidetrack everything before it gets going.
anyways....mebee i go to News and Poetry for a spell.
E
Your argument is fruitless. as it does not support you case. we are talking about salvation here,
he chose Judas, and Judas will burn in hell because he chose never to believe.
if all who chose would trust Christ, then Judas would be in heaven today with everyone else he chose.
my point, It is not a salvation issue you are making.
God always choses based on foreknowledge, Just because you do not see it, does not mean it is not true. You are not God. neither am i. and this I am right you are wrong crap does NOTHING to glorify God, and does nothing but glorify self
if thats the way you want to be. so be it.
he chose Judas, and Judas will burn in hell because he chose never to believe.
if all who chose would trust Christ, then Judas would be in heaven today with everyone else he chose.
my point, It is not a salvation issue you are making.
God always choses based on foreknowledge, Just because you do not see it, does not mean it is not true. You are not God. neither am i. and this I am right you are wrong crap does NOTHING to glorify God, and does nothing but glorify self
if thats the way you want to be. so be it.
Okay, to address it in your terms.
He is a slave in that he is not free to choose/make all moral choices and, therefore, cannot choose to live a sinless life.
He is a slave to the llmitations of his fallen nature, he is not free from those limitations, which Adam did not have before he disobeyed God and, therefore, Adam was created truly free to make all moral choices.
It's the same as me being a slave to gravity.
I am not free in my person to overcome its limitations.
I must go outside my person to overcome it.
He is a slave in that he is not free to choose/make all moral choices and, therefore, cannot choose to live a sinless life.
He is a slave to the llmitations of his fallen nature, he is not free from those limitations, which Adam did not have before he disobeyed God and, therefore, Adam was created truly free to make all moral choices.
It's the same as me being a slave to gravity.
I am not free in my person to overcome its limitations.
I must go outside my person to overcome it.