Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[Abiding]

I've addressed your interpretation of Ro 9 and 11, here, if you would like to address it.

I will. Prolly. But that doesnt work, just going back and forth. And its very tiring.
You addressed it as a text to use. And not for what its intention was. Its not an
easy text. And youve already admitted both logic and inner questions drove your
Hermeneutic. Alot if not all that agree with your position also shared how emotionally driven
need drew them to the same.

 

[Elin]

delimma. If i dont say that faith is given "after" regeneration i lose credibility
with my peers and limited atonement loses its foundation.

but if i say regeneration comes before faith then Romans 9 where
I took verses out of context will come back to haunt me later in the chapter.

So that's what this is about!

That may be true according to your interpretation of Ro 9 and 11.

But I don't think it will be true according to Ro 9 and 11 here.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is the whole reason for Romans 9......God whats up? didnt you will Israel to do what you asked?
Well it failed. Paul say no. My ultimate will will never fail.

Just like Pharaoh in his hard heart i will harden it even more to cause the world to see my glory.
And Israel in their hardened heart i will raise them up for the same.

But He also tells us that His will was NOT the choices either made.
And that they are simply clay, and He can use people as He pleases.

Amen. Scripture says the Clay became mired in his had (it destroyed itself) so he made a new clay to mold it into his what he wanted.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your understanding of the terms of the discussion is inadequate, so we can't really communicate.
Terms = "will not to sin" and "unorthodox"


For that I am grateful.

Because it is strong meat, only for the mature (Heb 5:11-14).

wow, just wow.. You are so high and mighty..Your right, everyone else is wrong,, and your not afraid to PUFF YOURSELF UP, while tearing everyone else down.

Yep. that sounds like a Godlike attitude alright.

 

[Elin]

You don't really want me to post another objectionable post on the will of God, do you?

what, your version. or the true version?

Are you denying it was gods will to gather Isreal, but they chose to go against his will?? that passages says it plain and simple.. to deny it is to deny the literal word of God.

Looks like that post is being called for.

 

[Abiding]

So that's what this is about!

That may be true according to your interpretation of Ro 9 and 11.

But I don't think it will be true according to Ro 9 and 11 here.

Elin that answer you gave there was so full of contridactions, and because of all the contention
thats been in this thread(no fault of yours) and my overworked laziness i chose to not reply.

If you mean "thats" what this is about meaning: Contradiction. Then yes.
But the "thats" that got me started on any of this is this:

that its been said and agreed upon by many in the threads that "faith is a byproduct of regeneration"
And if you dont believe that your not saved, have a different gospel, and a heretic.
If i have the energy i will seek to see how that is biblical.
Because the ramifications are eternal and the implications are great.
And the scriptures teach otherwise.

 

[mark54]

Your understanding of the terms of the discussion is inadequate, so we can't really communicate.
Terms = "will not to sin" and "unorthodox"


For that I am grateful.

Because it is strong meat, only for the mature (Heb 5:11-14).

You certainly aren't shy of promoting yourself are you
So you are preaching the strong meant on the internet, that I have never been fortunate to hear from the pulpit in 30 years of going to church, wow.
The truth is Elin, you were OK when you kept to the basics, but ran into trouble when you started quoting scripture that had nothing to do with the point you were trying to make.

I mean, quoting Rom8:7&8 to try and prove the Christians free will not to sin is limited is pretty basic error really

You are typical of someone who comes on the internet, flushed with believing they know much and are here to teach those less enlightened than themselves

I had all this from a Calvanist on another website
Like I said, he was lost when it came to the core of the Gospel, my guess is you may be too

 

[Abiding]

Good luck deflecting tho. Deflection is much needed to keep from being trapped
if all else fails...make it personal.

But in all that it makes it hard to dialogue with much progress
or purpose.

It may as well just be a blog

 

[Elin]

That's an awful lot like what zone reports regarding her family, even though she knows God does not will it, or he would do it.

Why would we be surprised that Jesus feels the same about his Jewish brothers?
He was human, you know.

He longed as a human, but he was here to do the Father's will, not his own.

so Jesus was not God?

What doth the Scriptures say?

Jn 6:38 - "For I have come down from heaven, not to do my will, but to do the will of him who sent me."

Mt 24:36 - "No one knows the day or the hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Lk 22:42 - "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

 

[Abiding]

What doth the Scriptures say?

Jn 6:38 - "For I have come down from heaven, not to do my will, but to do the will of him who sent me."

Mt 24:36 - "No one knows the day or the hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Lk 22:42 - "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

Noone has a problem seeing the humanity of Jesus. But its a big problem when you say Matt23 is just Jesus
human feelings. Can that be said in other texts? Whats the rule on that? cop-out

The context is Jesus pronouncing the greatest judgement in Israels history...and you contend his witto human feelings leaked
into the Word of God?

 

[Elin]

In that context as written a few verses earlier "grace" is His mercy. "by grace ye are saved" v5
His mercy was shown in the "riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus"v7

So grace is "Jesus Christ" jn1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Ill agree that grace comes first
then faith applied to that grace(In Jesus Christ/the gospel)
then salvation occurs(regeneration)

Salvation is not regeneration.

Salvation is forgiveness of sin, which saves from the wrath of God due on sin.

No grace is not regeneration although regeneration is a by grace.
Grace is Jesus Christ and the "free gift" Not of works.

If you dont hold to man being regenerated before faith then you cant hold to limited atonement.

How so?

Although I have not said that I don't hold to that.

 

[mark54]

Matthew 23 is not just Jesus human feelings, that's ridiculous

 

[Abiding]

Salvation is not regeneration.

Salvation is forgiveness of sin, which saves from the wrath of God due on sin.


How so?

Although I have not said that I don't hold to that.

I know your covering all your bases. And ill wait. Im not against telling you
your walking into a trap. But how else can you deal with a dodger? Have a tasty treat for now
if i dont get to work...that means less bagals

 

[Elin]

Thats trash saying that God would do it if He willed it. Honestly what a narrow view of both God and scripture.
And what a cop-out bringing up Jesus humanity there. Not only was He a prophet. He said he that has seen me
has seen the Father.

He also said He 'Never" speaks except what the Father gives Him. You stepped in do-doo there.
Also He could not have been talking from His human side as you imply look at the context..it is not
referring to His life on earth. Thats simply a statement that should embarrass.

I dunno'.

The following don't seem like trash, a cop-out or embarrassing to me:

Jn 6:38 - "For I have come down from heaven, not to do my will, but to do the will of him who sent me."

Mt 24:36 - "No one knows the day or the hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Lk 22:42 - "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

God says He will do all His will.

Isn't that what I said?

If God willed it, he would do it, because he does all his will.

 

[Elin]

Was I asked a question?

Yes and you tried but its not been made clear

So what was the question?

 

[Elin]

To think i read this as a comfort. That it is a comfort to see my family
perish because God has created them to show His justice and wrath and sovereignty.
As an alternative to them refusing Gods provision for salvation.
Oh well im not the sharpest knife in the drawer

Oh well, I comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable.

 

[zone]

"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

but...to whom is he speaking?
people God had already chosen.
God brought forth that people.
God appeared to Abram.

as born again people, we now look in the scriptures and we see what God is saying also.
right?

 

[Elin]

I will. Prolly. But that doesnt work, just going back and forth. And its very tiring.
You addressed it as a text to use. And not for what its intention was. Its not an
easy text. And
youve already admitted both logic and inner questions drove your
Hermeneutic.

Please refresh my memory.

Sounds an awful lot like a failure to understand at best, or an assumption at worst.

 

[Elin]

wow, just wow.. You are so high and mighty..Your right, everyone else is wrong,, and your not afraid to PUFF YOURSELF UP, while tearing everyone else down.

Yep. that sounds like a Godlike attitude alright.

Okay, you're confusing me.

Is the right response to agree with you, or to disagree?

 

[Elin]

Elin that answer you gave there was so full of contridactions, and because of all the contention
thats been in this thread(no fault of yours) and my overworked laziness i chose to not reply.

If you mean "thats" what this is about meaning: Contradiction. Then yes.
But the "thats" that got me started on any of this is this:

that its been said and agreed upon by many in the threads that "faith is a byproduct of regeneration"
And if you dont believe that your not saved, have a different gospel, and a heretic.
If i have the energy i will seek to see how that is biblical.
Because the ramifications are eternal and the implications are great.
And the scriptures teach otherwise.

Don't load yourself up with responding to me about what I never said.