Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[RickShafer]

Sometimes, we need to take a break.

Amen and Amen!

 

[RickShafer]

So I noticing that tag line - "Discernment does not give one the power to condemn"
I couldn't agree more. - In fact, I HATE it when people think they can judge others just because they think they found some new thing!

 

[cfultz3]

So I noticing that tag line - "Discernment does not give one the power to condemn"
I couldn't agree more. - In fact, I HATE it when people think they can judge others just because they think they found some new thing!

Although my purpose of having written that by-line was because people were going around saying/implying they knew the intent of another's heart and sentenced them to everlasting death, I do see where you are coming from. For some, discernment is often unintentionally confused with the 'innate power of Christ as LORD to hand judgment down'.

 

[RickShafer]

Yea, right on man.
I've been known to lash out myself.
I need to curb it. - Trying to.

 

[cfultz3]

Yea, right on man.
I've been known to lash out myself.
I need to curb it. - Trying to.

Bless you, Rick!!!!! Something I have pondered upon when I saw that endless debates leads but to condemning another because of doctrinal difference, forgetting that faith in the Son send from God is the only thing one needs for salvation. This is my end conclusion of that pondering: I am sure Jesus would be a little tired of standing by now. Let me keep up.

 

[Abiding]

but....not everyone was given the Law. and not everyone heard of Moses.
what did we do about all those gentiles paul said were lost, without hope and without God in the world?

A few verses earlier: [SUP]2 [/SUP]in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.[SUP]3 All of us[/SUP] also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[SUP][a][/SUP] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.[SUP]4 [/SUP]But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,

The topic is about Christ. And about them not being Israelites. It doesnt not mean there was not salvation for the gentiles before the NT church. Id figure if thats what you thought it would very much rhyme with these threads. But thats just not true. There was salvation for gentiles. Theres even evidence in the scriptures and alot of info about how they will be saved early on in Romans. Israel had a very big role, but not all of Israel were saved and not all the gentiles were lost.




are all these a gift of God?
that's the question.
i know Ephesians isn't the passage that proves faith is agfit - we already did this Ok then ill just take it back. Faith is a response of belief in what God says. Dont forget grace tho and neither is anygood without the blood of Christ.
but you agreed elsewhere that it is a gift, and that so is salvation. No it isnt. Its necessary but not salvation.

since all men are not saved, does the grace part NOT attached to the passages about faith and salvation have any real bearing the discussion? this is what i don't getf Of coarse grace is important. Meaning its free to the receiver. All men are not saved because they dont want to be. Should that be even in doubt after all Jesus said? Please dont let (XXX) warp your mind.

if it's ultimately salvation by faith, why separate grace from that equation and try to move over to the end conclusion about men who stay condemned? i don't get it Im not understanding this one. maybe explain in another post.



if the subject is salvation what difference does it makeYouve lost me.
if men are saved, it will because of by grace, through faith Grace is received by faith.
i don't see why the scissoring. what does this mean?



i'll bookmark this because it seems to be the crux of it.

i guess it's really super-charged responses to certain terms used.
which is fine.
just not sure if they really define the ultimate discussion.Supercharged? are you sure of that? the only thing ive even contested is limited atonement, and that God regenerates people before they receive Him and His provision by faith. Anyone can have faith. But do they want to?



have a good workday abiding.

Romans 8:28
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

sunergeó: to work together
Original Word: συνεργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sunergeó
Phonetic Spelling: (soon-erg-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I work together
Definition: I cooperate with, work together.

i guess this is synergy.
but it says God causes Who saying God doesnt cause the good. Or that God doesnt make the first move. Of coarse He does.

it's still Him doing it.

Your right. A good Father He is.

 

[RickShafer]

Bless you, Rick!!!!! Something I have pondered upon when I saw that endless debates leads but to condemning another because of doctrinal difference, forgetting that faith in the Son send from God is the only thing one needs for salvation. This is my end conclusion of that pondering: I am sure Jesus would be a little tired of standing by now. Let me keep up.

Thanks Chris, and bless you!! You are absolutely right.
It is as you say, almost impossible not to break the bonds of unity when arguing doctrine.
Well, I'm tired. Thanks for chatting.

 

[Tonydisciple]

haha its a big debate

 

[zone]

Your right. A good Father He is.

yes Mike, He is a Good Father
ty.
zone

 

[GreenNnice]

Many have not done what Jesus commanded. That's OK, too, we are with sin, all.

We are to follow Him. The Lord leads, psychomommy. Put your feet forward in faith, and, literally taking this passage is wise or unwise, that is up to Him, who will, always, speak in you

The apostles, all but one (Judas Iscariot), believed in Jesus before He died on the cross.
"One of you is of The Devil" is what Jesus said at 'The Last Supper.'

Either you are with Jesus as your master, or, The Devil.


You can not have it both ways as Scripture is replete with examples of this truth, we will love one (master) and hate the other.

The Lord leads, that none should perish, Lordship Salvation, incidentally, says you get one shot at belief in Christ and if you blow it afterward (by sinning) you get no more 'shots.' sad,isn't it, nilE. No mercy no more, apparently, no more 'mercies every morning.'

ohzone, yur sooo particula., Judas was of The Devil we do agree on that, I hope,and,pray. but,yes, ya got me, *green.stumbles around like being shot and falls over.
Hey ohzone, did you feel the Earth shift on its axis as you noticed my last supper faux pa. Want to feel like nilE,that's all

nilE, do you realize that Pharoah's heart was stone, with a chance to become from.'stony' to flesh, with a chance to be gathred, like bones, by God, and, put on with muscle, skin, and,movement forward in power for God.
But 'that' Pharoah said 'no, I won't go your way,God' and I certainly won't let Your people go.'

So, that was a bad ending for Pharoah, the knowledge Pharoah had was used wrongly, it SHOULD have been used to WAKE UP! and smell the PLAGUES. BUT, noooo, Phroah had to do things his own way, reapeatedly making a choice against God and God, therefore, repeatedly HARDENED Pharoah's heart.

 

[SarahM777]

forgive me, since you responded to my response to A question, I figured it was you who asked it. I guess thats what I get for assuming..lol

Done,I had figured that's what it was,but we do need to be careful when we do respond to someone else. Someone else could have taken it as being accused of something they did not do.

 

[mark54]

No, I think you have an inadequate understanding of the terms of the discussion, and therefore we cannot communicate.

A particular Scripture will not fix that, for discussion of it would only be futile.

Truth is we can't communicate because you seem unable to answer questions put to you concerning the scripture you bring forth. You have an inadequate understandig of the scriptures you are quoting
And when are you going to get to the meat?

 

[Bookends]

so Bookends....are you saying God is doing all those things without knowing exactly which people are going to be saved?

No, I'm saying this is a poor passage to use to support God's sovereignty over one's salvation.

because this part seems to say different (?)

whom He predestined, He also called, and those [plural, the church, the sons of God] whom He called, He also justified, and those whom He justified, He also glorified”

Are you say God did not call the church into existence? "If you place the Church in place of "those", IMO, it says the same thing. "whom He predestined, He also called, and the church whom He called, He also justified, and the church whom He justified, He also glorified”... I have no problem with the concept that God calls for a people, which doesn't mean God caused you to believe and caused a non-believer not to believe.

If the "those" aren't the church, who are they?

So if you think it says different, please explain why.

in other words, the question i'm wondering is since He knows the beginning and the end, He would know who will be saved...wouldn't He?
or...no....(?)

Yes, I believe God is Omniscient. But does that mean God is the "cause of someone's unbelief?"

He certainly seemed to know about Judas being called, but not saved. because that was foretold a long time before.

I'm not arguing the case the God is all knowing or sovereign. God uses the will of man for His purposes. I have no problem saying God calls us according to His foreknowledge. That still doesn't make a strong case that God caused Judas to do it.

so....i dunno.
what do you think? does God already know who will be with Him in eternity?

Yes, he does, but that still doesn't make God the "causal agent" behind one salvation or unbelief.

 

[unclefester]

“For those [Those, Plural, not one person, but a group] whom He foreknew [It was God's plan to have a people unto Himself, OT church and NT Church, one Church, One people], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son [The Church is predestined], in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers [Again, plural]. And those [plural, the church] whom He predestined, He also called, and those [plural, the church, the sons of God] whom He called, He also justified, and those whom He justified, He also glorified”

IMO, this is not about individual salvation, its about God's plan from the beginning of the foundations of the earth, having a group of people unto Himself.

Hi Bookends ... hope all is well I don't see where or how the pluralization changes anything regarding those whom God calls unto Himself. You seem to agree that the Church (the body of believers) is predestined .... but yet you say that the individual souls within it are not ? How can something that is a part of the whole not be inclusive of the total ? This makes no sense to me whatsoever.

 

[zone]

Yes, I believe God is Omniscient. But does that mean God is the "cause of someone's unbelief?"

okay. so you do believe God knows exactly who will be saved and with Him in eternity (individuals) (?)
cuz i do believe that.
there can't really be any alternative to that i don't think.

i didn't say He causes ppl's unbelief. men don't believe on their own.

we are told men are all condemned and lost already.
it seems to me He can and does use men's unbelief for His own purposes.

I'm not arguing the case the God is all knowing or sovereign. God uses the will of man for His purposes. I have no problem saying God calls us according to His foreknowledge. That still doesn't make a strong case that God caused Judas to do it.

same responses as above, pretty much

*
Yes, he does, but that still doesn't make God the "causal agent" behind one salvation or unbelief.

well i do believe God is the causal agent behind anyone's salvation.
He doesn't have to make them not believe, they don't believe already it seems like.

ty.....zone



edit - FESTER! stop reading my mind!

sorry Bookends i shoulda read one post more.
what Fester said.

 

[Bookends]

well i do believe God is the causal agent behind anyone's salvation.
He doesn't have to make them not believe, they don't believe already it seems like.

I agree, but I don't believe God forces himself on others, meaning that he causes some to believe and some to remain in unbelief. The cause to believe is given to all men. I trying to say that God woes all people unto himself for repentance.

Who is righteous?

 

[cfultz3]

Bless you, Rick!!!!! Something I have pondered upon when I saw that endless debates leads but to condemning another because of doctrinal difference, forgetting that faith in the Son send from God is the only thing one needs for salvation. This is my end conclusion of that pondering: I am sure Jesus would be a little tired of standing by now. Let me keep up.

I am sure it was understood what I said, but let me correct it just in case: let me get up.

 

[zone]

Who is righteous?

God Alone i guess would be my answer to that.
not sure what you mean.

 

[zone]

I agree, but I don't believe God forces himself on others, meaning that he causes some to believe and some to remain in unbelief.

i don't believe God forces Himself on anyone who comes to believe.
i've never used that term.

but i do believe He leaves some in unbelief.
He says he cuts some off because of unbelief.
so whichever way i look at it, when i simplify it,
it comes out the same in the end.

but i never use the words force, and robots, or whatever.
i never believed any of us are robots.

 

[Elin]

Subliminal is my second language Elin. Knock yourself out.

Drat!

I have no ability to do subliminal.