Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[Elin]

The Lord leads, that none should perish, Lordship Salvation, incidentally, says you get one shot at belief in Christ and if you blow it afterward (by sinning) you get no more 'shots.' sad,isn't it, nilE. No mercy no more, apparently, no more 'mercies every morning.'

ohzone, yur sooo particula., Judas was of The Devil we do agree on that, I hope,and,pray. but,yes, ya got me, *green.stumbles around like being shot and falls over.
Hey ohzone, did you feel the Earth shift on its axis as you noticed my last supper faux pa. Want to feel like nilE,that's all

nilE, do you realize that Pharoah's heart was stone, with a chance to become from.'stony' to flesh, with a chance to be gathred, like bones, by God, and, put on with muscle, skin, and,movement forward in power for God.
But 'that' Pharoah said 'no, I won't go your way,God' and I certainly won't let Your people go.'

So, that was a bad ending for Pharoah, the knowledge Pharoah had was used wrongly, it SHOULD have been used to WAKE UP! and smell the PLAGUES. BUT, noooo, Phroah had to do things his own way, reapeatedly making a choice against God and God, therefore, repeatedly HARDENED Pharoah's heart.

The hearts of all unregenerate mankind are stone, not just Pharoah, until God himself softens them.

You haven't reckoned with the timing and import of Ex 4:21.

 

[Elin]

Truth is we can't communicate because you seem unable to answer questions put to you concerning the scripture you bring forth. You have an inadequate understandig of the scriptures you are quoting
And when are you going to get to the meat?

So you agree that we are unable to communicate because we do not have an agreed-upon basis.

 

[zone]

ohzone, yur sooo particula., Judas was of The Devil we do agree on that, I hope,and,pray. but,yes, ya got me, *green.stumbles around like being shot and falls over.
Hey ohzone, did you feel the Earth shift on its axis as you noticed my last supper faux pa. Want to feel like nilE,that's all

uh...okay green

i don't need to feel like Nile.
i don't know who Nile is.

i'm me, and i'm okay with that.

why not try to speak coherently green?
i love you, green...but it really would be easier to communicate if you just spoke clearly most of the time, and didn't try to make cartoons out of every post. i like humor too, and having fun with words.
but sometimes why not just converse without the bling-a-jing?
ya know?

k....ttyl

 

[Bookends]

Who is righteous?

God Alone i guess would be my answer to that.
not sure what you mean.

So nobody is righteous save alone but God? Jesus said, "I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance" (Mark 2:17) and the bible is very clear that everyone is a sinner. Therefore the logical conclusion is that Christ came for all of us, the condition is that we repent, believe and have faith in the gospel. To answer the question why do some people do not repent, believe and have faith is because people love the darkness rather then light, not because God loves some more then others, or that God chose some over others. It's because God loves all men that He is willing to let some parish, and by not supernaturally imposing Himself upon peoples' limited free will to chose Him or reject Him. While it is true that God does everything to save a person and yet also it is true the man is held responsible for not recognizing this. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, [SUP]19 [/SUP]because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. [doesn't sound like total depravity here] [SUP]20 [/SUP]For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, [SUP]21[/SUP]because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Professing to be wise, they became fools, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Romans 1:18-23

Thus, the only logical conclusion that I can come up with, without fully understand it all, is that God holds everyone responsible and without excuse, for what little light it may be given them (light of creation-Romans 1, light of the conscience-Romans 2:12-16, and the light of Christ-Romans 3). Does not Jeremiah tell the Israelites that those who seek Him will be found by Him (Jer. 29:13). I contend that it is God who acts upon a man- not within a man, before salvation, so that man can respond and seek Him.

My question to you is can everyone respond to the wooing of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Bookends]

Hi Bookends ... hope all is well I don't see where or how the pluralization changes anything regarding those whom God calls unto Himself. You seem to agree that the Church (the body of believers) is predestined .... but yet you say that the individual souls within it are not ? How can something that is a part of the whole not be inclusive of the total ? This makes no sense to me whatsoever.

All is well, thanks, I hope thing are well with you and yours as well. This topic is a complex one, not all agreed upon in Christian orthodoxy, but nevertheless nothing to divide over, I hope. You ask "How can something that is a part of the whole not be inclusive to the total", wow, a load question for me for sure and I don't quite understand it...Doesn't the bible ever talk about the body of Christ corporately? Can you rephrase the question?

 

[zone]

not because God loves some more then others

see, this part has nothing to do with me.
never said anything like that to the best of my knowledge.

i've certainly never said it about myself (He loves me more than He loves my neighbor, for example).

It's because God loves all men that He is willing to let some parish

?
this must be a typo?
or is that what you are saying I believe?
have to see clarification cuz not knowing it's saying.

It's because God loves all men that He is willing to let some parish and by not supernaturally imposing Himself upon peoples' limited free will to chose Him or reject Him.

again, i don't know if this is your opinion or if you think it's mine.
don't get it.
that looks like a loaded sentence but i must be reading it wrong.

i don't believe man had unlimited free will - i'm not a pelagian or semi-pelagian.
i don't like the term total depravity, and i don't use.
not unless i'm forced to

While it is true that God does everything to save a person

i don't mean to quote mine from your post.
i did read it, several times, but there are some reasons i'm not sure what i'm supposed to answer.

God does do everything to save a person, i agree.
(so, why aren't all men saved, unless He will fail somehow in what He wants to do?...i guess that might be what you want me to address?)

Bookends, i'm not a calvinist.

but i am a monergist, so what you said above i agree with - Salvation is of The Lord.

My question to you is can everyone respond to the wooing of the Holy Spirit?

the only answer i have for that is that apparently they don't.

so it's really pointless asking me that, because i'd rather err on the side of saying The Lord (Trinity) will not fail in anything He purposes to do.

 

[Bookends]

see, this part has nothing to do with me.
never said anything like that to the best of my knowledge.

i've certainly never said it about myself (He loves me more than He loves my neighbor, for example).



?
this must be a typo?
or is that what you are saying I believe?
have to see clarification cuz not knowing it's saying.



again, i don't know if this is your opinion or if you think it's mine.
don't get it.
that looks like a loaded sentence but i must be reading it wrong.

i don't believe man had unlimited free will - i'm not a pelagian or semi-pelagian.
i don't like the term total depravity, and i don't use.
not unless i'm forced to




i don't mean to quote mine from your post.
i did read it, several times, but there are some reasons i'm not sure what i'm supposed to answer.

God does do everything to save a person, i agree.
(so, why aren't all men saved, unless He will fail somehow in what He wants to do?...i guess that might be what you want me to address?)

Bookends, i'm not a calvinist.

but i am a monergist, so what you said above i agree with - Salvation is of The Lord.



the only answer i have for that is that apparently they don't.

so it's really pointless asking me that, because i'd rather err on the side of saying The Lord (Trinity) will not fail in anything He purposes to do.

Originally Posted by Bookends

It's because God loves all men that He is willing to let some parish

What I mean is that loves that He is willing to allow us continue in unbelief if that what we want to do. For example, if my son hates me, or simply wants to go his own way, I can only show him love by letting him go instead of making him stay with me. True love doesn't contain, it frees or love doesn't bind, but loosens.

Sounds like we don't have any major arguments, What am I doing here?


Although I don't completely agree with Monergism.
mon·er·gism

[mon-er-jiz-uh

m] Show IPA
noun Theology . the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration. Compare synergism which I don't fully agree with either.

I would say the HS acts independently of the human will to bring someone to repentance, then the human will bends to the will of God regarding regeneration. What you you call this? I don't know but I"m prolly getting over my head now (not that I wasn't over my head before).

Peace and Love to you Zone.

 

[Abiding]

But what if its His purpose to take a people
that were willing only, like the model
of Abrahams servant finding Isaac a wife.
Who must be willing, the only condition.

Then your side of error would be in error.

 

[Bookends]

But what if its His purpose to take a people
that were willing only, like the model
of Abrahams servant finding Isaac a wife.
Who must be willing, the only condition.

Then your side of error would be in error.

Is your comment directed at what I said?

 

[Abiding]

Is your comment directed at what I said?

Nope, not even close

 

[zone]

But what if its His purpose to take a people
that were willing only, like the model
of Abrahams servant finding Isaac a wife.
Who must be willing, the only condition.

Then your side of error would be in error.

is this directed at what i said?
i'll wait and see.

 

[zone]

Is your comment directed at what I said?

it might be directed at my post, but for some reason mike is not addressing (quote feature) whoever he directed his comment to. so i am sorry if this is a wrong assumption on my part mike.

it might not be mine, but possible. given the sequence of posts, and that i said:

the only answer i have for that is that apparently they don't [respond to the woo-ing of the Holy Spirit]

so it's really pointless asking me that, because i'd rather err on the side of saying The Lord (Trinity) will not fail in anything He purposes to do.

so this might make sense:

Originally Posted by Abiding
But what if its His purpose to take a people
that were willing only, like the model
of Abrahams servant finding Isaac a wife.
Who must be willing, the only condition.

Then your side of error would be in error.

.......................................

though i'm at a loss to understand how saying : The Lord (Trinity) will not fail in anything He purposes to do would be error.

it never once occurred to me The Lord would fail in anything He Purposed to do.

so it prolly wasn't directed at me, so i prolly owe Mike a milkshake, or a manicure

 

[Abiding]

Does a monergist live his life consistantly?
If so im of the opinion they must believe it is God working in them to quarrel
over doctrine, why? well why even question it would have to be the only answer.
If im losing it it must be Gods will since He arbitrarily causes all things.

I wonder if the OPs "mans moral responsibility" is just a disclaimer. Like a inline fuse.
In case your in pinch.

Ive reread the thread and seen the unanswered(satisfactorily) questions and the futility of taking
it seriously.

The one that sticks out the most is Mathew 23[SUP]37 [/SUP]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not![SUP]38 [/SUP]Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


The answer given was that it was Jesus human sentiment. That causes more troubles
than no answer at all.

Questions:

How often in Jesus words should we consider His human sentiment?

What do we do with the claim He only spoke what the Father gave Him.

If your going to use the garden statements of take this cup from me, notice He went with the Fathers will. And notice Matt 23 gave the reason and the event of 70ad occurred. So the "Human sentiment" answer is obsurd. But i understand you cant see God not having His way, unless all
He would prefer He makes come to pass.....too bad for you

 

[Abiding]

is this directed at what i said?
i'll wait and see.

 

[Abiding]

it might be directed at my post, but for some reason mike is not addressing (quote feature) whoever he directed his comment to. so i am sorry if this is a wrong assumption on my part mike.

it might not be mine, but possible. given the sequence of posts, and that i said:



so this might make sense:

Originally Posted by Abiding
But what if its His purpose to take a people
that were willing only, like the model
of Abrahams servant finding Isaac a wife.
Who must be willing, the only condition.

Then your side of error would be in error.

.......................................

though i'm at a loss to understand how saying : The Lord (Trinity) will not fail in anything He purposes to do would be error.

it never once occurred to me The Lord would fail in anything He Purposed to do.

so it prolly wasn't directed at me, so i prolly owe Mike a milkshake, or a manicure

You owe me nothing but to love me. But a blackberry milkshake?, i wouldnt turn it down

 

[zone]

see, this part has nothing to do with me.
never said anything like that to the best of my knowledge.

i've certainly never said it about myself (He loves me more than He loves my neighbor, for example).

i don't believe man had unlimited free will - i'm not a pelagian or semi-pelagian.
i don't like the term total depravity, and i don't use.
not unless i'm forced to


God does do everything to save a person, i agree.
(so, why aren't all men saved, unless He will fail somehow in what He wants to do?...i guess that might be what you want me to address?)

Bookends, i'm not a calvinist.

but i am a monergist, so what you said above i agree with - Salvation is of The Lord.

the only answer i have for that [can all men respond to the wooing of the holy Spirit] is that apparently they don't.

so it's really pointless asking me that, because i'd rather err on the side of saying The Lord (Trinity) will not fail in anything He purposes to do.

what part is error Mike?

i'd rather err on the side of saying The Lord (Trinity) will not fail in anything He purposes to do.

maybe you addressed it in another post.
i'll try to see it.

 

[Abiding]

You owe me nothing but to love me. But a blackberry milkshake?, i wouldnt turn it down

By the way....I totally agree. God will have His way and His will and all His good Pleasure, absolutely!!
the debate is about what He has revealed to us about just what that is and what it entails.

 

[zone]

Does a monergist live his life consistantly?
If so im of the opinion they must believe it is God working in them to quarrel
over doctrine, why? well why even question it would have to be the only answer.
If im losing it it must be Gods will since He arbitrarily causes all things.

Does a synergist live his life consistantly?
If so im of the opinion they must believe it is God's will for them to be cooperating with Him to quarrel over doctrine.
even though quarelling over doctrine has nothing to do with How God regenerates a sinner.

thank you dear.
for involving me in your hatred for Calvinism the way you do
surely this what God intended your free will and cooperation to be for.
i guess.

i don't know why you don't believe God is in absolute control of everything and nothing happens that He hasn't decreed.
from the beginning to the end.

i'll throw out the corridors of time cliche - you said you were making a list of patterns and isms, so hopefully you have two lists.
to be fair.

 

[Abiding]

The debate gets difficult with all the dynamics and different thoughts that come to mind in each
post.

Without getting technical theres a great difference between mans freewill(oxymoron) and him
assenting to the work of the Holyspirit, nature, his conscience and Gods providence.

So even tho people make a over abundant issue about depravity, its not that big of an issue.
Think about it.

If the man was moral he would still be under sentence. If the man was capable he would still
be cut off and under sentence. Im not giving an opinion about just how depraved or not we are
because it really doesnt matter. Adam and eve needed a cure immediatly after they sinned.
And after they sinned they still heard the voice of God and heard their instructions.

 

[zone]

By the way....I totally agree. God will have His way and His will and all His good Pleasure, absolutely!!
the debate is about what He has revealed to us about just what that is and what it entails.

okay....but from one post to the next i'm not sure what you are saying.
this is a good example.

but i'll leave off until you explain "just what that is and what it entails."

otherwise it's back to back posting with qualifications on qualifications.