WILL THERE BE A RAPTURE?

[nathan3]

Sorry bro but my Bible says we meet him in the air in the clouds.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The subject of 1st Thess. chapter 4: is set up, in verse 13. Paul is taking about the change in bodies at the last trump, the same mystery Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 15: 51 -52; that is the same exact subject in 1 Thess 4: 14-17

The word ''air'' is spirit the same spirit bodies Paul taught about the last trump in 1 Cor 15: 51-52. The Lord is returning to this earth . As it is written. Those in heaven are those who have passed on; of which Christ will bring with Him here to earth as written here in 1 thess 4: 14.

The Christian is meant to be tested along with everyone on this earth as Paul states, there will be No gathering back to Christ until after, that false one stands in Jerusalem calming to be God ( 2 thess 2: 3-4 ) . That is the reason we put on the Gospel armor in Ephesians 6; to stand, against, the fiery darts of the enemy. There is no jet pack, mentioned in the Gospel armor.

The wording; because of how it was translated ,in 1 Thess 4: 14-17, it would appear as though, there was some taking of people off the earth, but its not the subject, and its not what it says in the Greek it was taken from,. It is talking about the change in bodies when Christ does return to this earth, after, the last trump, not before the 6th.


And as far as the seals and vials and trumps. I would allow more time to study those, because there's more to it then your drawing from them at this moment.

 

[nathan3]

And the word ''cloud'' taken with the subject matter of Christ return is the many Christians He will bring with Him at His return; Paul being the writer of 1 Thess 4. Paul also used this word clouds as in a great gathering of people. And this gathering he described as clouds :

Hebrews 12:1

King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

So when you read that verse1 thess 4, the air, is the change in bodies, because it is the subject. also the same matter Paul taught in 1 cor 15; the change in bodies at Christ return.

and the Clouds, is to represent this great gathering back to Christ, at. His return. ''great a cloud of Christian witnesses' at Christ return.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

King James Version (KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 11:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[peterT]

The subject of 1st Thess. chapter 4: is set up, in verse 13. Paul is taking about the change in bodies at the last trump, the same mystery Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 15: 51 -52; that is the same exact subject in 1 Thess 4: 14-17

The word ''air'' is spirit the same spirit bodies Paul taught about the last trump in 1 Cor 15: 51-52. The Lord is returning to this earth . As it is written. Those in heaven are those who have passed on; of which Christ will bring with Him here to earth as written here in 1 thess 4: 14.

The Christian is meant to be tested along with everyone on this earth as Paul states, there will be No gathering back to Christ until after, that false one stands in Jerusalem calming to be God ( 2 thess 2: 3-4 ) . That is the reason we put on the Gospel armor in Ephesians 6; to stand, against, the fiery darts of the enemy. There is no jet pack, mentioned in the Gospel armor.

The wording; because of how it was translated ,in 1 Thess 4: 14-17, it would appear as though, there was some taking of people off the earth, but its not the subject, and its not what it says in the Greek it was taken from,. It is talking about the change in bodies when Christ does return to this earth, after, the last trump, not before the 6th.


And as far as the seals and vials and trumps. I would allow more time to study those, because there's more to it then your drawing from them at this moment.

Still struggling to see your point,

(meet him in the air)

(caught up together with them in the clouds)

and (standing on the sea of glass after getting the victory over the beast)

last trumpet, and the dead RISE first,

Come up hither And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud at the last trumpet.

Rv11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

All this is up, up up and away

Do you have any scripture saying it’s not up up and away?

 

[GRA]

There is no jet pack, mentioned in the Gospel armor.

LOL

"That is a good one..."

 

[Elizabeth619]

me thinks we need a Rapture forum.
Or one specifically for Revelation.

 

[nathan3]

Still struggling to see your point,


All this is up, up up and away

Do you have any scripture saying it’s not up up and away?

I'm not in the mood at this time. Maybe I will come back later. maybe re read what i posted. In this Thread, and the other one I recently posted in. good night

 

[peterT]

.There is no jet pack, mentioned in the Gospel armor

Yes there is

Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud

Jet pack, a supernatural jet pack

but not all have it, or will get it

 

[superdave5221]

Hey, dave. . . .Who is the wrath of God poured out on in Revelation?

It is poured out on unbelievers. This does not mean that believers will not be present and receive persecution. It is possible that God will miraculously shield His Church from the worst of His wrath. You must remember that the Israelites were present when God poured out His wrath on the Egyptians, even though they were not the object of that wrath.

 

[superdave5221]

Hey, dave. . . .The same Greek word used for "wrath" is used throughout. . . saved (kept safe) from wrath can't mean anything else but kept safe from wrath.

Who is the wrath of God poured out on in Revelation?

The same word for wrath may be used but you still have to consider context. The wrath of God abiding on people in N.T. times almost always applies to the wrath that comes from unbelief in Christ as the Savior. This means that if they die with God's wrath on them, they will be condemned to Hell for eternity. That is God's real wrath! This is the wrath that those who were suffering from unbelief were in danger of.

Certainly God knew that the Tribulation would not occur for at least two thousand years. Why would God speak through Jesus and Paul to tell people that He was going to save them from a wrath that would occur 2000 years (at least) after they were dead, (if the wrath were the Tribulation wrath)? Such a teaching would be irrevelant to them. Do you see what I mean by context?

 

[GRA]

Now if someone wants to say that the "wrath of God" is not the same thing as the Tribulation period. . I would say what is poured out during the Tribulation period? . . .I would say God's anger, i.e. wrath!!! and go study Revelation.

I have studied Revelation quite extensively... And, I would say:

'wrath of God' = '7 vials' (Revelation 16) - "exactly that - no more and no less" -- source: God; target: 'the wicked' -- 'the just' do not experience it

What happens during the tribulation period is essentially "at the hand of Satan" - upon whomever he wishes to bring into tribulation.

 

[peterT]

It started with a sick women in the year 1830 . Her name was Margaret MacDonald. a couple of preachers were near by when she was having her sick trance, ( which she said felt very evil at first ). These two preachers decided to make it into what it is today. And now you have most the world ignoring what the Bible teaches about what will happen; and are confused because of this false teaching.. I'm sure Satan loves it though: because when you know the truth of the matter, that teaching leads, to worshiping Satan. Many are ignorant of that fact, because, biblical illiteracy abounds.

There was only two serious works done about the history of the Rapture teaching.

The Rapture Plot: by Dave MacPherson. &

The incredible coverup: by Dave MacPherson

I don’t think this is about the word rapture.

I think it’s about your doctrine where there is no meeting the lord in the air in the clouds

According to you “Air” is not air and “Clouds” are not clouds.

What about “caught up together” and to “meet” the Lord in the air.

Can you re-wright that bit of scripture too so there is NO jet pack No meeting in the air.


16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Last trumpet.

Rv11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Last trumpet.

Rv11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud and their enemies beheld them.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Up up and away at the last trumpet

Up in the heavens for the marriage supper of the lamb, then to return and rule and reign with Christ a 1000 years.

Rv19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[nathan3]

I don’t think this is about the word rapture.

I think it’s about your doctrine where there is no meeting the lord in the air in the clouds

According to you “Air” is not air and “Clouds” are not clouds.

What about “caught up together” and to “meet” the Lord in the air.

I would start to study those chapters you quoted, by studying what the Subject is there. Look up the definition of a Subject . It really is looking like everyone that believes in rapture ; don't understand what a subject is.

Read those verses in the Greek,( The real language ), Not English, and learn more by taking into account what Paul was talking about In 1 Cor 15, and his 2nd letter to the Thess. Understand the Order of events outlined by Christ Himself; written in Mark 13., and then understand the order of events taught by Christ Himself in Revelation, before you jump to any moment rapture, which is Not written.

 

[peterT]

I would start to study those chapters you quoted, by studying what the Subject is there. Look up the definition of a Subject . It really is looking like everyone that believes in rapture ; don't understand what a subject is.

Read those verses in the Greek,( The real language ), Not English, and learn more by taking into account what Paul was talking about In 1 Cor 15, and his 2nd letter to the Thess. Understand the Order of events outlined by Christ Himself; written in Mark 13., and then understand the order of events taught by Christ Himself in Revelation, before you jump to any moment rapture, which is Not written.

The subject is getting new bodies and meeting the lord in the air in the clouds for the marriage supper of the lamb, the wedding then we return with Christ and make war and rule them with a rod of iron for a 1000 years.

Rv19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.



19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


How did they know to gathered themselves together to make war with jesus? because they had already seen us being raised in the air in the clouds at the last trumpet.

 

[Blain]

Nathan if it is not written what do you make of this?
Matthew 24:40-41
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

 

[iog]

Although I tentatively agree with you, (I say tentatively because I am still researching this issue), the above argument is not a good one. The word Trinity does not appear in the bible either, and yet I definitely believe in that, as I would suppose that you do too.

I don't beleive in the trinity, its not written.

what I do beleive in is GodHead this word Godhead is written in the bible.

 

[iog]

That passage can be applied to different trials and tribulations believers experience in their daily Christian living, not the 7-year Tribulation.
Jesus did not say we will not be persecuted for our faith...
Matt 5:10-12
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

The Tribulation will be God's judgment upon the wicked and also the last chance for repentance. There will be no church-age believer who has been washed by the blood of Christ on earth during Jacob's trouble; faithful is He who has promised. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

the Lord will leave some who understadn his words and what is going on at that time to try others and shall fall , but also they shall instruct others on what ia going on
[h=3]Daniel 11:31-36[/h]

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
[SUP]
33 [/SUP]And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
[SUP]
34 [/SUP]Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
[SUP]
35 [/SUP]And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
[SUP]
36 [/SUP]And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

 

[iog]

"Rature" means the "act of transporting, or the fact of being transported,"

it is a "catching up," as in 1Th 4:16-17.

according to webster [h=2]Definition of RAPTURE[/h]1: an expression or manifestation of ecstasy or passion


2a: a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion
b: a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things


3 often capitalized: the final assumption of Christians into heaven during the end-time according to Christian theology

Rapture - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

[nathan3]

Nathan if it is not written what do you make of this?
Matthew 24:40-41
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

The subject, was False Christ coming performing supernatural miracles; Christ said. The one taken is taken by the subject. that means taken out of season by Antichrist. Christ says in the very next verse, don't be harvested in the winter. meaning before the true end of the world, Harvest is always in the summer. You got to pay attention to what Christ is talking about, and keep that in mind. If you lose focus of what the conversation is about, then, what can i say. its not really my problem in the end.

The one in the field is taken by Satan himself. Christ repeats that warning like 7 times in that chapter. !

 

[nathan3]

The subject is getting new bodies and meeting the lord in the air in the clouds for the marriage supper of the lamb, the wedding then we return with Christ and make war and rule them with a rod of iron for a 1000 years.

Rv19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.



19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


How did they know to gathered themselves together to make war with jesus? because they had already seen us being raised in the air in the clouds at the last trumpet.

I'm willing to discuss this in the chat room. because. this is taking a long time to type all this out.

 

[Blain]

The subject, was False Christ coming performing supernatural miracles; Christ said. The one taken is taken by the subject. that means taken out of season by Antichrist. Christ says in the very next verse, don't be harvested in the winter. meaning before the true end of the world, Harvest is always in the summer. You got to pay attention to what Christ is talking about, and keep that in mind. If you lose focus of what the conversation is about, then, what can i say. its not really my problem in the end.

The one in the field is taken by Satan himself. Christ repeats that warning like 7 times in that chapter. !

!!! oops i am sorry i misunderstoodLOL