Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[GreenNnice]

Don't forget I didn't write the Scriptures that make no distinction between belief and faith.

So I am not the one to ask why they don't.

". . .believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead. . .For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified (saved). . .Anyone who trusts (believes) in him will never be put to shame." (Ro 10:9-11)

Yes, we believe with our heart, but we are SAVED THROUGH FAITH .....

nilE, this truth spans all phases of growing our relationship with Christ: justification, sanctification, glorification.
Why, IF you believe in Christ, are justified by belief in your heart, which his by FAITH, won't you WANT to increase your faith.

Don't you WANT to increase your faith, nilE ??? Well, God won't INCREASE your faith unless you have faith in His work going on in your life, pu-s-s--s-s-s--s-hing YOU for forward ------> Don't YOU want to be pushed, milady ?? Knowing 'that' truth of HOW one takes their belief to ANOTHER level, that belief that IS in their heart. That belief only CONTINUES
THROUGH FAITH. Just because the word 'faith' is not mentioned in 1 John 2:18-29, we both can see that this passage is all about FAITH, right, nilE ?

Why can't you see the unseen 'faith' in Paul's words, in the verse you posted from Romans 10, in the verse I posted, in many, many more verses. Belief is true, we ARE SAVED by grace, this is truth. No doubt about it. But, the person who puts their belief in Him WILL, too, put their "FAITH IN HIM" (Phil. 3: 8-9 ) , too.

This IS the sovereign WILL of God for those who follow Him. In order to follow Jesus in our life, to LOSE our life, believing in Him will get you so far, Scripture is CLEAR of this truth, you MUST have faith, too. And, this, too, is the spiritual responsibility of man who is following Him.

Moral responsibility is not a good term, for those who obey Him, will KEEP the 10 commandments, AND THEN SOME !!! (cute vernacular attempt there ! ) "And then some' means that we who are under Christ are under laws of both following laws, like paying our taxes, etc. etc. AND under His spiritual leading of our lives which TRANSCEND mere human basic laws of living life and obeying Him. The Lord leads, the Spirit of truth WILL reveal all things to you, and, you can be certain, you will not just believe in the Holy Spirit's leading, you will HAVE FAITH that where He takes you is where you are to EXACTLY go; His plans for you .

 

[zone]

Don't you WANT to increase your faith, nilE ??? Well, God won't INCREASE your faith unless you have faith in His work going on in your life, pu-s-s--s-s-s--s-hing YOU for forward ------> Don't YOU want to be pushed, milady ??

pushed where

 

[GreenNnice]

pushed where

Where He wants you to go. Where He wants to use His power in you to promote His glory, show His power, explain His way to others is the way to truth and life, the ONLY way, ohzone


17I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[SUP]f[/SUP] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the (perfect) one to come.

Paul is challenging the Ephesus' church folk's faith. He sees their faith in Christ and Paul wants to see God increase it

 

[mark54]

Well, since that also really is not a point of contention, we are agreed on what must be believed to be saved.

I believe we are, and it is the core 'doctrine unto salvation that must be the most important doctrine of all.
I also agree that obediance through faith, and the Holy Spirit's sanctification of the convert is dealt with in discipling, though hopefully we would agree this issue needs to be raised very quickly, óf Paul's core message of how sin is overcome. Actually, I believe little needs to be mentioned when initially speaking to a desperate soul seeking God. If they are genuine(the Holy Spirit is drawing them to Christ) not much needs to be said in order for them to accept the Gospel. If they are not genuine, it wouldn't matter how much you said it would make no difference

So my understanding of the sovereignty of God in salvation does not impair the meaning of the gospel.

IAnd another objection to God's sovereignty is removed.

Response above
BTW
I don't think I have objected to God's sovereignty

 

[zone]

Where He wants you to go. Where He wants to use His power in you to promote His glory, show His power, explain His way to others is the way to truth and life, the ONLY way, ohzone

Elin's doing a fine job of explaining His ways to others - from His WORD.

but you were posting to someone called Nile, who apparently doesn't have the faith and power you have.
or something.

"Where He wants to use His power in you to promote His glory, show His power"

really?
really green?
are you making God happy by letting Him use His power in you to promote His glory and show His power?
okay...in what ways are you letting God do stuff in you that the babe Nile isn't (whoever that is)?

how should Nile be pushed...explain it.

 

[mark54]

Yes !!!

. The only way that we can understand we are FREE from our sins is realizing the Son saved us by grace and we do that one way and ONE WAY ONLY.......

....THROUGH FAITH. Stepping forward in Him, with His leading, by 'FAITH IN HIM,' says Phil. 3:8 or 9. We then 'gain Christ'. This hypothesis is very simple.

It is a simple Gospel isn't it!
Even a child can understand it.
Believe the son of God died for you on the cross, repent of your sin and ask Him into your life as Lord and Saviour and believe it has been done.
The Holy Spirit doesn't hang around, he IMMEDIATLEY enters your life and sets the seal on your salvation, you are born again

There is much to learn in the faith, but that simple message of repent and believe saves you.

And you didn't have to understand predestination, osas, the pre trib rapture, fillique, the beast with ten horns, or so very much more to be saved!
Sorry, couldn't resist it

I love your scripture BTW

Not havimng a righteousness of my own that comes from the law but that which is by faith in Christ, the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith

I also love this one a few verses earlier.

For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh
Phil3:3

 

[Professor]

I am just popping right into this thread, so forgive me if this has been discussed. I think that sometimes there is a distinction. I am thinking of James 2:19
"Even the demons believe, and they shudder."

There is no Biblical distinction between belief and faith, they are the same thing.

 

[unclefester]

My last two cents worth ... and I hesitate to even give it because it is not my desire to aid in any further confusion or doubt in regards to the great love, mercy and sovereignty of our Lord and Saviour God. For arguments sake, let's use the number 100,000 to represent the number of souls that God foreknew would be saved. Do we all agree that God foreknew who and how many will be saved ? Fair enough. If God foreknew this fact, why is it important for us (mankind) to debate the manner in which God chose to determine this first established reality ... whether it was simply God's pre-determination of His elect or mankind's free-will in choosing towards the same ? Because in the final analysis, THE NUMBER REMAINS THE SAME ...i.e. ... the 100,000 number that I've used for the sake of this argument. Would any here argue that the number doesn't remain the same regardless ? So what's left for us to contemplate ? Only one thing. God's "method of fairness". And if one isn't debating the fairness of God in regards to who can or can't be saved ... or who will or won't be saved ... or God's pre-determination or foreknowledge of all things,... then what exactly is it that you are struggling to reconcile ? It can only be one thing. Because if the number (100,000) remains the same regardless,... and it does, and if God foreknew all things,... and He did, ... what then can be our contention ? The answer is simple ... "the fairness of God". Do you trust in God's infinite wisdom and love enough to trust Him beyond the reaches of our human reasoning and understanding ? Perhaps this is the question that first needs answering ? Because if our trust in God's infinite wisdom and love is limited to those things within human reason and rationalization, so then also is our faith. ​And if our faith is to be measured by human standards, we have made our own reasoning and understanding equal to that of our Infinite God in Whom we claim to trust. That's just how I see it.

 

[GreenNnice]

Elin's doing a fine job of explaining His ways to others - from His WORD.

but you were posting to someone called Nile, who apparently doesn't have the faith and power you have.
or something.

"Where He wants to use His power in you to promote His glory, show His power"

really?
really green?
are you making God happy by letting Him use His power in you to promote His glory and show His power?
okay...in what ways are you letting God do stuff in you that the babe Nile isn't (whoever that is)?

how should Nile be pushed...explain it.

i have nothing against her explaining things, and, agreed, she's well versed ,but that doesn' mean what she says is the truth, ohzone. Faith and belief are being called 'the same' by nilE, so, what do you say to that, ohzone, or, does it even matter in your Lutheran faith ?

It is a simple Gospel isn't it!
Even a child can understand it.
Believe the son of God died for you on the cross, repent of your sin and ask Him into your life as Lord and Saviour and believe it has been done.
The Holy Spirit doesn't hang around, he IMMEDIATLEY enters your life and sets the seal on your salvation, you are born again

There is much to learn in the faith, but that simple message of repent and believe saves you.

And you didn't have to understand predestination, osas, the pre trib rapture, fillique, the beast with ten horns, or so very much more to be saved!
Sorry, couldn't resist it

I love your scripture BTW

Not havimng a righteousness of my own that comes from the law but that which is by faith in Christ, the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith

I also love this one a few verses earlier.

For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh
Phil3:3

The Lord leads, yes, the message of Christ is very simple, it takes faith to believe in Christ, to believe in believing that God sent His Son to Earth via Holy Spirit seed to become born a man, yet, be 'fully God' along with that being made 'fully man' in so doing what His Father willed Him to do.

It is difficult, but the fact that there is only one God we are to worship, then, Scripture is VERY clear to me that we are to understand that when the bible says 'I (Jesus) and the Father are one,' I just have to take that Scripture at face value, what I see on the page, like, 'If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.' I just can't understand how to make 'it' any simpler than that, the idea of believing in Christ and having faith that Scripture can, indeed, be taken at face value, as He leads us in power of His doing and truth of His giving/revealing to us.


Yes, ohzone, since right here in topic above, YES! an emphatic yes!! We are to do whatever we do for the glory of God and He LOVES it when we go in faith and let His power work through us. Again, I am NOT one to talk to about signs and healings although I feel a dream, or, two, of mine have been signs from Him, in some way, that reassured me of simple things in life. But, really, ohzone, you should get yourself a workbook on spiritual gifts understanding, maybe, a hardback to go with it, IF you are not seeing that whatever we do is going to be HOUSED in His power and His power will be great through you, as I said to you from Scripture, Ephesians 1 posted in my earlier post to you.

I am just popping right into this thread, so forgive me if this has been discussed. I think that sometimes there is a distinction. I am thinking of James 2:19
"Even the demons believe, and they shudder."

Excellent. "Even the demons believe in Him . " Indeed, they do.

 

[mark54]

i

The Lord leads, yes, the message of Christ is very simple, it takes faith to believe in Christ, to believe in believing that God sent His Son to Earth via Holy Spirit seed to become born a man, yet, be 'fully God' along with that being made 'fully man' in so doing what His Father willed Him to do.

It is difficult, but the fact that there is only one God we are to worship, then, Scripture is VERY clear to me that we are to understand that when the bible says 'I (Jesus) and the Father are one,' I just have to take that Scripture at face value, what I see on the page, like, 'If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.' I just can't understand how to make 'it' any simpler than that, the idea of believing in Christ and having faith that Scripture can, indeed, be taken at face value, as He leads us in power of His doing and truth of His giving/revealing to us.


.

You have just taken away the simplicity of the message that you previously said was simple to believe, and introduced a non salvific belief(according to what is biblical salvific belief) to the discussion, that is why your message is now not so simple. If you want to discuss the above I would suggest there are plenty of other threads to do so.
Stick with the bible as to what salvational belief is, not man, then you have the simple message needeed to be believed.

 

[SarahM777]

It is a simple Gospel isn't it!
Even a child can understand it.
Believe the son of God died for you on the cross, repent of your sin and ask Him into your life as Lord and Saviour and believe it has been done.
The Holy Spirit doesn't hang around, he IMMEDIATLEY enters your life and sets the seal on your salvation, you are born again

There is much to learn in the faith, but that simple message of repent and believe saves you.

Mark,

Where do the scriptures say we are to ask Jesus into our heart to be saved? Where does the Bible record that the thief on the cross said the sinners prayer? Show me one time Jesus ever said to ask Him into our hearts. Show me where the Bible even hints that the sinner's prayer is even Biblical. We are told to BELIEVE,REPENT AND OBEY. Belief MUST come first not afterwards because without faith we can NOT please God,even repentance is meaningless without faith.

Are you aware that the Mormons believe what you said above? What is it that makes the difference then between true faith and unbelief in that case?

 

[SarahM777]

Mark,

One other thing we better have it right about who Jesus is,because our salvation depends upon it. Anything off of what the Bible tells us will give us a false Christ. Period. When we talk to many claiming to be Christian we better know how they are defining the words they are saying. What are they saying about Jesus,what do they mean by the resurrection? What do they really mean by saying He is the Son of God? Just because one says those words does not mean they believe the very same thing. There are Hindus that believe in Jesus but they don't believe in the same Jesus. Most of us never ever take the time to get the clarification of the terms that others are using and we think they are saying thing when in reality they are NOT. Just because one says they believe in Jesus does not mean they believe the same thing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am just popping right into this thread, so forgive me if this has been discussed. I think that sometimes there is a distinction. I am thinking of James 2:19
"Even the demons believe, and they shudder."

amen..

Many will believe, and not be saved. but no one who has true faith will be lost..

Huge difference. Scripture is clear on this in many aspects.

 

[zone]

i have nothing against her explaining things, and, agreed, she's well versed ,but that doesn' mean what she says is the truth, ohzone. Faith and belief are being called 'the same' by nilE, so, what do you say to that, ohzone, or, does it even matter in your Lutheran faith ?

sigh.
why are you looking for a thread to pull to unravel things you don't understand or like.
didn't your friend post for you the lexicon def/greek on faith and belief right away?

did ya read it?

the demons absolutely believe, and tremble.
why would they have faith?
they have nothing to hope for.

Elin's point concerning christians who have saving faith is there is no distinction between belief and faith. this is so obvious...your friend even showed it to you.

faith is a gift. faith is for christians.
are you really trying to tell me that in a born again christian there IS a difference that matters AT ALL between faith and belief?

mkay....if it makes you happy.

~

btw green: since you're sure Nile isn't posting truth, i'll be sure to watch and see you don't adopt it and pretend you never railed against it.

don't you know truth when you hear it?

this is typical of a certain kind of believer to do. see it every day.

 

[Bookends]

My last two cents worth ... and I hesitate to even give it because it is not my desire to aid in any further confusion or doubt in regards to the great love, mercy and sovereignty of our Lord and Saviour God. For arguments sake, let's use the number 100,000 to represent the number of souls that God foreknew would be saved. Do we all agree that God foreknew who and how many will be saved ? Fair enough. If God foreknew this fact, why is it important for us (mankind) to debate the manner in which God chose to determine this first established reality ... whether it was simply God's pre-determination of His elect or mankind's free-will in choosing towards the same ? Because in the final analysis, THE NUMBER REMAINS THE SAME ...i.e. ... the 100,000 number that I've used for the sake of this argument. Would any here argue that the number doesn't remain the same regardless ? So what's left for us to contemplate ? Only one thing. God's "method of fairness". And if one isn't debating the fairness of God in regards to who can or can't be saved ... or who will or won't be saved ... or God's pre-determination or foreknowledge of all things,... then what exactly is it that you are struggling to reconcile ? It can only be one thing. Because if the number (100,000) remains the same regardless,... and it does, and if God foreknew all things,... and He did, ... what then can be our contention ? The answer is simple ... "the fairness of God". Do you trust in God's infinite wisdom and love enough to trust Him beyond the reaches of our human reasoning and understanding ? Perhaps this is the question that first needs answering ? Because if our trust in God's infinite wisdom and love is limited to those things within human reason and rationalization, so then also is our faith. ​And if our faith is to be measured by human standards, we have made our own reasoning and understanding equal to that of our Infinite God in Whom we claim to trust. That's just how I see it.

Mesh this verse with the sovereignty of God, Psalm 14:2

[SUP]2 [/SUP]The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God

 

[zone]

Mark,

Where do the scriptures say we are to ask Jesus into our heart to be saved? Where does the Bible record that the thief on the cross said the sinners prayer? Show me one time Jesus ever said to ask Him into our hearts. Show me where the Bible even hints that the sinner's prayer is even Biblical. We are told to BELIEVE,REPENT AND OBEY. Belief MUST come first not afterwards because without faith we can NOT please God,even repentance is meaningless without faith.

Are you aware that the Mormons believe what you said above? What is it that makes the difference then between true faith and unbelief in that case?

Romans 8
6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.


cannot - is not able.

dunamai: to be able, to have power
Original Word: δύναμαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: dunamai
Phonetic Spelling: (doo'-nam-ahee)
Short Definition: I am powerful, am able
Definition: (a) I am powerful, have (the) power, (b) I am able, I can.

Cognate: 1410 dýnamai (a primitive verb) – to show ability (power); able (enabled by God), empowered. See the cognate-noun, 1411 /dýnamis ("ability, power").


how straight forward can that be, i wonder?

 

[zone]

Mesh this verse with the sovereignty of God, Psalm 14:2

[SUP]2 [/SUP]The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Yep. this is why we need Christ. Since we can not do good. He needed to be good. so he could take out penalty for us, and we would have the ability to trust him and his work. without this. we would have no hope to have faith in.

 

[Elin]

I am just popping right into this thread, so forgive me if this has been discussed. I think that sometimes there is a distinction. I am thinking of James 2:19
"Even the demons believe, and they shudder."

Thanks.

That is not the meaning of Biblical faith, which is trust for one's eternal welfare.

The demons have intellectual assent, but that is not trust.

 

[mark54]

Mark,

Where do the scriptures say we are to ask Jesus into our heart to be saved? Where does the Bible record that the thief on the cross said the sinners prayer? Show me one time Jesus ever said to ask Him into our hearts. Show me where the Bible even hints that the sinner's prayer is even Biblical. We are told to BELIEVE,REPENT AND OBEY. Belief MUST come first not afterwards because without faith we can NOT please God,even repentance is meaningless without faith.

Why are you using the term 'the sinners prayer'
Are you saying it isn't biblical to repent and ask Christ into your life as Lord and Saviour?
Stop trying to justify your extra biblical demands unto salvation, and refusal to accept Jesus' words as to the required belief unto salvation

Are you aware that the Mormons believe what you said above? What is it that makes the difference then between true faith and unbelief in that case?

The difference is the Holy Spirit. and He does not contradict the requirement of belief Christ himself laid down as to who a person must believe him to be to inherit eternal life
It is not a theological exercise of the little grey cells that guarentees salvation. Unflrtunately many on websites like these seem to believe it is.
Can I ask you?
Who gives a person authority to refuse to accept the requirement of belief Christ himself laid down unto salvation?
Stop following theologians and scholars and make the plain words of the bible your bottom line