Heresy on Christianchat

homwardbound · Mar 16, 2013

many of the Old testament Saints murdered and Saul did as well the more one has been forgiven the more one loves. Don't you all 7seven7' heart

homwardbound · Mar 16, 2013

cfultz3 said:

Touche Cultz yes

7seven7 · Mar 16, 2013

mark54 said:

hahaha No, brother, don't get too excited. One thing I have have found here, is that the Catholic faith, and that of the Protestants, work on two TOTALLY DIFFERENT points of view (sola Scriptura v Scripture & Tradition), which is why we could never agree on most things. BUT! Another thing I have learned here, is that we all really do have a common belief that Christ is our saviour, even though salvation is obtained through different means for some of us. So, just leaving the thread lol. God bless you, mate. Peace

mark54 · Mar 16, 2013

homwardbound said:

I think he has a great testimony, and though he and I may disagree on some non salvific doctrine, I believe he has answered well in most of the posts I have rerad of his those who disagree with him. My post you are responding to was not finding fault with him personally in anyway,

homwardbound · Mar 16, 2013

7seven7 said:

The fact that I have been shown so much mis-leadership by the Protestant leaders to all you followers of theirs about the Catholic Church, which as a result breeds alot of bitterness and judgement towards us from you, makes it increasingly easy for me to say that I could NEVER, as a practicing Christian, join any branch of Protestantism for the simple fact that they concentrate so much on defaming the Catholic Church, who in ACTUAL FACT, whether you like it or not, are your brothers and sisters in Christ, and are targeted by the muslims, the athiests, and governments all over the world (who have all got evil influences on this world), along with the Protestants, who should be standing firm with us to conquer evil. From what I've seen, the intentions of the founder of this chat site were pure and good, but the result was far less as far as Christian fellowship with ALL CHRISTIANS goes. I have had an answer to every question that I have received from every non-Catholic, and for the most part, the more I answered the more bitterness I received. God bless you all. And know this, that even though I have seen all this, I understand why you believe it and I still love you, and until the day I die, I will pray for unity within all Christian Churches and every follower of Christ. Goodbye.

1 Corinthians 1:12-14

[SUP]12 [/SUP]What I mean is that each of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” [SUP]13 [/SUP]Has Christ been divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? [SUP]14 [/SUP]I thank God[SUP][a][/SUP] that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,

Matthew 16:18-20

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

I hear you but not all herer are that we too love you back no division
1 Corinthians 3:3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1 Corinthians 1:10Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Bottom line Jesus Christ is our Savior right? Do we all agree on this?

homwardbound · Mar 16, 2013

7seven7 said:

homwardbound said:

and you as well keep enjoying your walk and search, and thank you back for their is no condemantion for those that seek after the Spirit in place of the flesh and what this world can offer them.

homwardbound · Mar 16, 2013

mark54 said:

No i understand Mark your Love that you have received far outweighs any of your flesh getting in the way i know this and see this once oyu were as once I was and many that have come to belief as Charlie shows smothered an dcovered in the Love of Christ shed abroad in and through his heart

Geometar · Mar 16, 2013

Every division in ranks between Bishops leading to heresy.There are no higher rank then Aposle which is Bishop today.Pope or Patriarch is just 1st between equall Bishops,not anything as Vicar of Christ.
This was one of the two greates reasons for spliting of One Church.
Holy Fathers says that in history of man there were 3 big fallings of man.
One was fall of Adam.
Second was fall of Judas Iscariot.
And third was fall of Pope of Rome.
I am sorry for this hard words,but i haven't made them.

Charlamane · Mar 16, 2013

7seven7 said:

Wait till you're pushing 60 and come to realize how little you know. lol. As my old mom used to say, ''The older I get, the less I know. By the time I'm dead, I won't know anything for sure.'' At that point, and already, I know my salvation doesn't depend on anything I know or don't know. It has to depend on grace alone. HOWEVER, scriptures do say to study to show yourself approved. It's absolutely foolish not to seek wisdom continually all throughout your life. Our purpose here is surely to learn to give glory to God in all that we do and say. Hence, surely it's about what we do with what little we know, not about how much we know, especially since we'll never know all that much while still in this world.

eternally-gratefull · Mar 16, 2013

tribesman said:

there could be no peace. However, if I did believe in this, I would be catholic. they have the greatest number of works, and means to which one could earn salvation. If I missed some, I could still get in with the others..

Like being a jew, I would be a pharisee..

at least my pride in all my works would help me be more at peace with myself..lol

eternally-gratefull · Mar 16, 2013

7seven7 said:

I was trying to get YOU to think on a biblical and Godly level that if you think a muderer is undeserving of eternal life. you should not think anyone is deserving. Because according to scripture a liar is just as guilty and undeserving.

If murder can cause us to lose salvation. then lieing, or even pride can cause us to lose salvation.

Then why do you think you could lose salvation. If you admit you are just as guilty as anyone else. then why do you think you could earn salvation?

think of all the famous murderers in scripture. David, His son Salomon, Moses, Paul, Even David understood no works of tradition or law could save him, only his faith in God.

1. Your church fathers are not my church fathers. My church fathers did not teach a gospel of works.
2. God did not give an easy salvation. People who are truly saved will show a changed life. Those who have mere belief but no repentance have never been saved.
3. Suited me? Eternity is too long a time to place it in the hands of men. Christ is the ONLY way to salvation. He who believes is not condemned (not he who believes, takes mass, is baptized, does penance etc etc) those things did not come into being until after the scripture was completed, when more added all their works..and formed a church that more resembled Israel than it did the church Paul and Peter started. They even enforced their church rules like the jews did, With murder for anyone who did not believe as they did.

This is your history not mine.

[/QUOTE]

eternally-gratefull · Mar 16, 2013

7seven7 said:

you act as if you are the first catholic we have spoken too...................

Geometar · Mar 16, 2013

ERP Papism

Papism as the Oldest Protestantism by the Blessed Fr. Justin (Popovich)

Geometar · Mar 16, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

I was trying to get YOU to think on a biblical and Godly level that if you think a muderer is undeserving of eternal life. you should not think anyone is deserving. Because according to scripture a liar is just as guilty and undeserving.

If murder can cause us to lose salvation. then lieing, or even pride can cause us to lose salvation.

Then why do you think you could lose salvation. If you admit you are just as guilty as anyone else. then why do you think you could earn salvation?

think of all the famous murderers in scripture. David, His son Salomon, Moses, Paul, Even David understood no works of tradition or law could save him, only his faith in God.

1. Your church fathers are not my church fathers. My church fathers did not teach a gospel of works.
2. God did not give an easy salvation. People who are truly saved will show a changed life. Those who have mere belief but no repentance have never been saved.
3. Suited me? Eternity is too long a time to place it in the hands of men. Christ is the ONLY way to salvation. He who believes is not condemned (not he who believes, takes mass, is baptized, does penance etc etc) those things did not come into being until after the scripture was completed, when more added all their works..and formed a church that more resembled Israel than it did the church Paul and Peter started. They even enforced their church rules like the jews did, With murder for anyone who did not believe as they did.

This is your history not mine.

[/QUOTE]

Ethernally,very interesting statement,but as u can see upstairs,u and infallible Pope of Rome are in the same level of infallibily.I do not see why u do not like Pope and R Catholicism,when he gave an excellent example how man can start new Church by his own wish.

Graybeard · Mar 16, 2013

7seven7 said:

PS said:

LOL....please define what you call "tomorrow"??......you said the same thing to me in an earlier post!...I'm still waiting

7seven7 · Mar 17, 2013

PS said:

7seven7 said:

Ok, I'm sorry, I honestly forgot about this comment since I had about 20 to reply to lol. Here goes.......

1. Why does it condemn clerical dress? (Matt. 23:5-6).
Matthew 23:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues...."

First of all, our priests don't do everything to be seen by men. He was quite obviously talking about the scribes and paharisees, who WERE wicked men, demanding attention and respect. Our priests wear garments..... so what? Our priests do NOT love the uppermost rooms at feasts or the "chief seats in the synagogues." Actually, every time I attend Mass when there is more than one priest present, there is one saying Mass, and the rest sit down with the congregation. If they are invited to a wedding, they refuse to be seated in a special place. This passage was MOST DEFINATLEY aimed at the scribes and pharisees, as the only thing that you can link to the priests in this is the part about the garments, which our priests only wear during Mass. Scribes and pharisees used to wear them full-time in order to receive respect. When our priests are not celebrating the Holy Liturgy, they are wear most uncomfortable attire, closing in around their necks, but seen as a sacrifice offered to the Lord THEIR WHOLE LIVES!

2. Why does it teach against the adoration of Mary? (Luke 11:27-28).

Luke 11:27-28

New King James Version (NKJV)

Keeping the Word

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
[SUP]28 [/SUP]But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

As you can see, very plainly here, brother, the adoration of Mary is NOT taught against, but He is plainly saying that adoration of Mary is not as important as hearing the word of God and keeping. And despite your understanding of Catholic teachings, this is EXACTLY what we are taught AND BELIEVE!!

3. Why does it show that all Christians are priests? (1 Pet. 2:5,9).

1 Peter 2:5-9

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”[SUP][a][/SUP]

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,[SUP][b][/SUP]
“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]8 [/SUP]and
“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”[SUP][d][/SUP]

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

First of all, all Christians ARE priests. It is ALL our duties to teach and lead others onto the road of Righteousness through words and actions. Just because we call our priests "priests", doesn't take away our duties as leaders and teachers. We are told that our leaders/teachers (priests, bishops, cardinals and pope) are all leaders among equals. So in a sense, yes, we are all priests. But I think the reason our priests are given the specific name "priests" is because they go through I think something like 7-10 years of study in order to lead us in our Scripture and Faith properly, as Christ intended. So yes, Catholics believe we are all priests aswell.

4. Why does it condemn the observance of special days? (Gal. 4:9-11).

Galatians 4:9-11

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?[SUP]10 [/SUP]You observe days and months and seasons and years. [SUP]11 [/SUP]I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

Wow, you really want to take this one literally, then you have to get rid of the calender. We celebrate the birth of Christ, the Crucifixion of Christ, the Ressurection of Christ, and we fast for 40 days during Lent. "[SUP]10 [/SUP]You observe days and months and seasons and years."If you want to question me about this, first stop following the yearly calender and seasons. Everything we celebrate is in celebration for the birth of Christ, and what He did for us. Do you really see a problem with this?

5. Why does it teach that all Christians are saints? (1 Cor. 1:2).

1 Corinthians 1:2

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]2 [/SUP]To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, calledto be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Brother, he tells us that we "are called to be saints." He doesn't tell us that we are saints period. There's a huge difference. We CAN all be saints, and I pray that we all do become saints for the sake of Christ after what He did for us, but we must do EXACTLY what He wants us to do and walk in love and righteousness before we earn the right to join Him in heaven as saints. We are CALLED to be saints.
I will continue this a little later, after Mass. God bless!

TosinAsLeader · Mar 17, 2013

Children children, are we still talking about Catholics being condemned by default, regardless if G-d was recieved in their hearts?

7seven7 · Mar 17, 2013

PS said:

7seven7 said:

6. Why does it condemn the making and adoration of images? (Ex. 20:4-5).

Exodus 20:4-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;[SUP]5 [/SUP]you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourthgenerations of those who hate Me...."

At first instance it would appear that this commandment imposes an absolute prohibition against the making and use of all images per se. However, a thorough examination of the Old Testament precludes such an interpretation, as this would necessitate God prohibiting what He allows and commands elsewhere, especially concerning the Temple of Jerusalem itself.
It follows that if the Commandments prohibited the making of images whatsoever, Protestants ought to remove and destroy all their statues of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and even Mount Rushmore, as well as burning all their pictures of relatives and friends. Common sense though tells us that such would be an absurd outcome.
The Catholic doctrine on the veneration of images was fully outlined by the second council of Nicaea in 787 AD:
"Proceeding as it were on the royal road and following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers, and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition is of the Holy Spirit which dwells in the Church), we define with all care and exactitude, that the venerable and holy images are set up in just the same way as the figure of the precious and life-giving cross; painted images, and those in mosaic and those of other suitable materials, in the holy Churches of God, on holy vessels and vestments, on walls and in pictures, in houses and by the roadsides; images of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ and of our undefiled Lady, the Holy God-bearer, and of the honorable angels, and of saintly and holy men. For the more frequently these are observed by means of such representations, so much the more will the beholders be aroused to recollect the originals and to long after them, and to pay the images the tribute of an embrace and a reverence of honor, not to pay to them the actual worshipwhich is according to our faith, and which is proper only to the divine nature: but as to the figure of the venerable and life-giving cross, and to the holy Gospels and to the other sacred monuments, so those images to accord the honor of incense and oblation of lights, as it has been the pious custom of antiquity. For the honor paid to the image passes to its original, and he that honors an image honors in it the person depicted thereby."

The real purpose of the commandment is to steer people of God away from idolatry, that is, the worship of any false God. Have a look at these following passages, brother:Deuteronomy 7:4-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For they will turn your sons away from following Me, to serve other gods; so the anger of the Lord will be aroused against you and destroy you suddenly. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But thus you shall deal with them: you shall destroy their altars, and break down their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images,[SUP][a][/SUP] and burn their carved images with fire.

2 Kings 17:9-12

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Also the children of Israel secretly did against the Lord their God things that were not right, and they built for themselves high places in all their cities, from watchtower to fortified city. [SUP]10 [/SUP]They set up for themselves sacred pillars and wooden images[SUP][a][/SUP] on every high hill and under every green tree. [SUP]11 [/SUP]There they burned incense on all the high places, like the nations whom the Lord had carried away before them; and they did wicked things to provoke the Lord to anger, [SUP]12 [/SUP]for they served idols, of which the Lord had said to them, “You shall not do this thing.”

God obviously abhors idolatry; However, in the same scriptures we see Jews making statues for legitimate religious purposes, and under God's command:

Numbers 21:8-9

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” [SUP]9 [/SUP]So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

When the bronze serpent was later adored by the Jews, rather than simply venerated, it was destroyed:

2 Kings 18:4

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]He removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image[SUP][a][/SUP]and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan.[SUP][b]
[/SUP]
In the construction of the Ark of the Covenant God gave the following instructions:

Exodus 25:18-20

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work you shall make them at the two ends of the mercy seat. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Make one cherub at one end, and the other cherub at the other end; you shall make the cherubim at the two ends of it of one piece with the mercy seat. [SUP]20 [/SUP]And the cherubim shall stretch out their wings above, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and they shall face one another; the faces of the cherubim shall be toward the mercy seat.

The Temple of Jerusalem was thoroughly decorated with statues of all kinds:

1 Kings 6:23

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Inside the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olive wood, each ten cubits high.

1 Kings 6:26-27

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]26 [/SUP]The height of one cherub was ten cubits, and so was the other cherub. [SUP]27 [/SUP]Then he set the cherubim inside the inner room;[SUP][a][/SUP] and they stretched out the wings of the cherubim so that the wing of the one touched one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall. And their wings touched each other in the middle of the room.

1 Kings 7:29

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]29 [/SUP]on the panels that were between the frames were lions, oxen, and cherubim. And on the frames was a pedestal on top. Below the lions and oxen were wreaths of plaited work.

1 Chronicles 28:18

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]and refined gold by weight for the altar of incense, and for the construction of the chariot, that is, the gold cherubim that spread their wings and overshadowed the ark of the covenant of the Lord.

2 Chronicles 3:10

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]In the Most Holy Place he made two cherubim, fashioned by carving, and overlaid them with gold.

2 Chronicles 4:3-4

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And under it was the likeness of oxen encircling it all around, ten to a cubit, all the way around the Sea. The oxen were cast in two rows, when it was cast. [SUP]4 [/SUP]It stood on twelve oxen: three looking toward the north, three looking toward the west, three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east; the Sea was set upon them, and all their back parts pointed inward.

Ezekiel 41:18

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And it was made with cherubim and palm trees, a palm tree between cherub and cherub.Each cherub had two faces,

The Temple with all these statues was built by Solomon. What is particularly remarkable is that just after construction was begun, God spoke to Solomon as follows:

1 Kings 6:11-14

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then the word of the Lord came to Solomon, saying: [SUP]12 [/SUP]“Concerning this temple which you are building, if you walk in My statutes, execute My judgments, keep all My commandments, and walk in them, then I will perform My word with you, which I spoke to your father David.[SUP]13 [/SUP]And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake My people Israel.”
[SUP]14 [/SUP]So Solomon built the temple and finished it.

What does Solomon do in the light of God's admonition to "walk in My statutes and obey my ordinances and keep all My commandments"? He carves statues for the house of the Lord, and to the Lord's delight!:

1 Kings 9:1-3

New King James Version (NKJV)

God’s Second Appearance to Solomon

9 And it came to pass, when Solomon had finished building the house of the Lord and the king’s house, and all Solomon’s desire which he wanted to do, [SUP]2 [/SUP]that the Lord appeared to Solomon the second time, as He had appeared to him at Gibeon. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And the Lord said to him: “I have heard your prayer and your supplication that you have made before Me; I have consecrated this house which you have built to put My name there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually.

The ancient Jewish practice in this regard was very strict, for they were prone to imitate the idolatry of the pagans around them. The early Christians, who live in the age of the Incarnation, had no such difficulty. So the Catacombs are a treasury of paintings, gilded glasses, depicting scenes from the lives of Christ, His Mother, the Apostles and other persons of the Old and New Testaments. The mind of the early Christians was clearly a Catholic mind.

7seven7 · Mar 17, 2013

TosinAsLeader said:

LOL!! Now here's a 16 year old with faith, brothers and sisters!!! Little brother, don't ever lose that simplicity, cz its people like you to whom the Kingdom of God belongs!! God bless you

loveme1 · Mar 17, 2013

7seven7 said:

Hebrews 10

Heresy on Christianchat

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