Heresy on Christianchat

[homwardbound]

Ok, I think I understand you point. But please just explain something to me. If a person is saved regardless of his/her works, does this mean he/she can do what they like?

You are free and as you believe you will be and I hear LOVE God's type 1 cor 13 we are just keeping a reminder not to use our freedom to have an excuse for the flesh as is why Paul wrote to the Corinthians 1 book to them to straighten out the heresy that over took them and they took advantage of the grace their freedom in Christ and harmed each other without compassion. then they repented and had a Godly sorrow over the worldly one they had 2 Corinthians 7 the fulfillment of thew Law is LOVE

 

[7seven7]

a question for you 7seven7 who are these traditions from? and what are the traditions that we or better yet that the Corinthians and Thessolonians received from Paul? I myself do not think they were not man made for Paul was not of the Law anymore he was and is of the Spirit of God that has passed onto all of us that beleive truth right? And this truth is Love right?

I agree. The traditions passed on through Paul were not of man, but of God. As are the traditions in the Catholic Church passed on through St. Peter and the early Church Fathers from the Spirit of God. So why is tradition constantly bashed by Protestants when Christianity had tradition as a very big part of it (and still does in the Catholic Church) until the Protestants started breaking off 500 years ago? Were St. Paul and the early Church fathers not guided by the Holy Spirit?

And you might've missed my question to you earlier, bro. If a person is saved, then changes their ways again, backslides, and starts acting wickedly (murder, rape, drugs), then commits suicide, has he lost his salvation?

 

[PS]

The rebuke was on the brethren who walked disorderly and not after the tradition they received from Paul et al. They were to hold the traditions received from the apostles.

That is right, I thought that was what I said, and of course the apostles got it from Jesus and these are the things we need to cling to and Paul delivered the same message.

 

[homwardbound]

I do not believe that the sinful nature is eradicated at conversion. (I assume you also believe in confession and absolution and not sinless perfection). So it is fully possible not only that they do wrong but also that they may fall down. However they will rise up again and walk the narrow path. God will lose none of His. They are preserved forever.

Yes you will come to the full knowledge of God and see that it is all him and none of us only by belief we see he has through the cross made us righteous first by death then by new life here and now today by belief in God asking to see this depth in God that all we are and ever will be are participaters in his righteousness and his righteouseness only are we given this gift to participate in WOW!!!!!! so by the cross we are made righteous in and of him there is nothing more I or anyone can do. Galatians are the ones that had to be reminded of this, powerful stuff from Paul to them and to us all that claim belief, we are righteous by belief but never of self and self tries we fail and have fallen from grace that saves us

 

[tribesman]

That is right, I thought that was what I said, and of course the apostles got it from Jesus and these are the things we need to cling to and Paul delivered the same message.

OK. Agreed on this.

 

[7seven7]

1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

This is the keeping of the Lord's Supper, instituted by Jesus and delivered by Paul. Catholics have even managed to change that.


2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

This is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is man's tradition that needs to be avoided, I did not think I would need to say that.


2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

This is also very true. We need to withdraw ourselves from the tradition of disorderly men. i.e. those who change God's order.

1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

This is the keeping of the Lord's Supper, instituted by Jesus and delivered by Paul. Catholics have even managed to change that.

Are you kidding? The Last Supper is kept in the Liturgy (Mass) lol. How did the Church change that?

2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

This is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is man's tradition that needs to be avoided, I did not think I would need to say that.

The traditions that the Catholic Church holds have been passed on since the early Church Fathers, guided by the Holy Spirit, not by man. You're absolutely right, you didn't need to say that because you had it wrong.

2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

This is also very true. We need to withdraw ourselves from the tradition of disorderly men. i.e. those who change God's order.


Now, understand what he is telling them. "that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us." The traditions that they received from them (and the early Church fathers) are the same traditions that the Church still follow today. So in actual fact, the brothers that "walketh disorderly" are the ones who don't follow those traditions, aren't they?

 

[PS]

1Co 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

This is the keeping of the Lord's Supper, instituted by Jesus and delivered by Paul. Catholics have even managed to change that.

Are you kidding? The Last Supper is kept in the Liturgy (Mass) lol. How did the Church change that?

2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

This is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is man's tradition that needs to be avoided, I did not think I would need to say that.

The traditions that the Catholic Church holds have been passed on since the early Church Fathers, guided by the Holy Spirit, not by man. You're absolutely right, you didn't need to say that because you had it wrong.

2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

This is also very true. We need to withdraw ourselves from the tradition of disorderly men. i.e. those who change God's order.


Now, understand what he is telling them. "that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us." The traditions that they received from them (and the early Church fathers) are the same traditions that the Church still follow today. So in actual fact, the brothers that "walketh disorderly" are the ones who don't follow those traditions, aren't they?

The following list give a summation. If the Bible is a Catholic book,
1. Why does it condemn clerical dress? (Matt. 23:5-6).
2. Why does it teach against the adoration of Mary? (Luke 11:27-28).
3. Why does it show that all Christians are priests? (1 Pet. 2:5,9).
4. Why does it condemn the observance of special days? (Gal. 4:9-11).
5. Why does it teach that all Christians are saints? (1 Cor. 1:2).
6. Why does it condemn the making and adoration of images? (Ex. 20:4-5).
7. Why does it teach that baptism is immersion instead of pouring? (Col. 2:12).
8. Why does it forbid us to address religious leaders as "father"? (Matt. 23:9).
9. Why does it teach that Christ is the only foundation and not the apostle Peter? (1 Cor. 3:11).
10. Why does it teach that there is one mediator instead of many? (1 Tim. 2:5).
11. Why does it teach that a bishop must be a married man? (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5).
12. Why is it opposed to the primacy of Peter? (Luke 22:24-27).
13. Why does it oppose the idea of purgatory? (Luke 16:26).
14. Why is it completely silent about infant baptism, instrumental music in worship, indulgences, confession to priests, the rosary, the mass, and many other things in the Catholic Church?

Massive list of Roman Catholic False doctrines

 

[7seven7]

When I say that I cannot see the fruit of salvation in such behavior it means that I very strongly doubt they were ever saved to start with.

Brother, it is very possible that one can be saved then fall out of the state of grace. Especially in this evil world we live in. Scripture doesn't say that once you are saved, you will beat all temptation and live sinless and not turn you back on Christ. It is very possible to be saved then fall into the ways of the world and turn your back on Christ, then by your answer earlier, lose your salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you're saying that Baptism isn't important for the sake of getting into heaven, if you have been exposed to the Truth, right?

I have been baptised by God himself into the death and burial of Christ and his body.

if we try to replace the baptism of God with the baptism of men, we are adding works to the gospel of Christ. and are no better than the jews who tried to add physical circumcision to the gospel. Paul condemned that as a false gospel which was no gospel at all.

I DID however, get baptised in water, as it is Gods first command, But I was not saved by it, I was saved completely before it.

 

[7seven7]

The following list give a summation. If the Bible is a Catholic book,
1. Why does it condemn clerical dress? (Matt. 23:5-6).
2. Why does it teach against the adoration of Mary? (Luke 11:27-28).
3. Why does it show that all Christians are priests? (1 Pet. 2:5,9).
4. Why does it condemn the observance of special days? (Gal. 4:9-11).
5. Why does it teach that all Christians are saints? (1 Cor. 1:2).
6. Why does it condemn the making and adoration of images? (Ex. 20:4-5).
7. Why does it teach that baptism is immersion instead of pouring? (Col. 2:12).
8. Why does it forbid us to address religious leaders as "father"? (Matt. 23:9).
9. Why does it teach that Christ is the only foundation and not the apostle Peter? (1 Cor. 3:11).
10. Why does it teach that there is one mediator instead of many? (1 Tim. 2:5).
11. Why does it teach that a bishop must be a married man? (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5).
12. Why is it opposed to the primacy of Peter? (Luke 22:24-27).
13. Why does it oppose the idea of purgatory? (Luke 16:26).
14. Why is it completely silent about infant baptism, instrumental music in worship, indulgences, confession to priests, the rosary, the mass, and many other things in the Catholic Church?

Massive list of Roman Catholic False doctrines

lol I will answer EVERY ONE of these questions for you tomorrow, brother (I wish you gave me one question at a time lol). But then you must convert to Catholicism haha jk. God bless. Read for the answers tomorrow.

 

[tribesman]

Brother, it is very possible that one can be saved then fall out of the state of grace. Especially in this evil world we live in. Scripture doesn't say that once you are saved, you will beat all temptation and live sinless and not turn you back on Christ. It is very possible to be saved then fall into the ways of the world and turn your back on Christ, then by your answer earlier, lose your salvation.

I didn't say that "Scripture doesn't say that once you are saved, you will beat all temptation and live sinless and not turn you back on Christ", what I said is that people who are saved may well fall down but will eventually rise up again, while the false plants (who never had salvation) will fall down and not rise up again. God will preserve them in the Faith that are His. This is a word of promise. Salvation can not be undone or redone. Because salvation is not the work of man, nor conditioned on him, it is the work of Jesus Christ and conditioned solely upon Him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, brother, you are wrong again. I do believe in sinless perfection. After all, that is what God made us capable of. But please tell me, what if they don't rise up again? It is very easily suffered. If they commit murder after being saved and stay fallen, are they still saved?

why do people want to always bring up murder or something? In Gods eyes a small lie is just as punishable of death as murder. so why would someone who lied still be saved a a murderer not? this makes no sense. Either they are both still cleansed. or we are under law, and they are both condemned, there is no in-between.

 

[homwardbound]

Brother, maybe you can answer this question so I can understand the view of Protestants on this. If a person is saved, then changes their ways again, backslides, and starts acting wickedly (murder, rape, drugs), then is he saved regardless?

Those are reactions and actions of one not really ever coming to belief. A tree is always identified by its fruit. If one truly beliefs on the first day of belief that are saved and sealed if the Holy Ghost of promise
It is like an apple that when it is first born it is green. It is a perfect Apple it is not mature yet and needs protection and growth to become mature. This is for all that believe whether they are in this or that denomination it does not matter but those with wrong motives will be cast out and burned period and today there are many that say they believe demons do this they believe cause they were there when the cross took place. The problem is they do not put any Faith in the Savior they say they believe and their fake works of love are exposed when one sees them acting no differant than the world acts only loving those that LOVE them. How can anyone call themselves a believer if they only love those that love them? The unbeliever does this?
And there is no further repentance if and if one beleves either one does or they do not believe and the works of God show forth.
A good scripture to read is Hebrews from Hebrews 5:10 - 6:8
At 6:1 is where one need to ask God to move us all onto the meat of the word and be a ripe apple and become the branch that only can bear the fruit by abiding in Christ the tree of life that was and is in the Garden. Take a bite it is delicous and drink his blood in this amazing new covewnant salvation where in this all sins are behind his back never to see again ever WOW!!!!!!
How can one not respond with thankfullness? Therefore how can one that has been shown truth and believes do wrong as you said as in harming another? If they do then they have not yet believed they only played Church and appeared to look good in front of others as like the BTK killer that got caught was hiding in Church.

 

[homwardbound]

Brother, maybe you can answer this question so I can understand the view of Protestants on this. If a person is saved, then changes their ways again, backslides, and starts acting wickedly (murder, rape, drugs), then is he saved regardless?

they plainly never came to belief in the finished work od Christ ever not saved to begin with, and this is not a protestant only view it is God's a gold nugget from the protestant view

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When I say that I cannot see the fruit of salvation in such behavior it means that I very strongly doubt they were ever saved to start with.

you still could not judge. You assume they changed, and it was not something which caused them to kill. then in guilt they killed themselves because they were drunk and not filled with the spirit.

One can not tell if they are saved or not. If they did not die. they could have repented the next day, and show fruits of salvation showing they just fell into sin for some reason . or they could have continued a life of sin, proving they were never saved to begin with.

these trick questions people who think we can lose salvation are just that. lets not fall for it.

 

[7seven7]

I didn't say that "Scripture doesn't say that once you are saved, you will beat all temptation and live sinless and not turn you back on Christ", what I said is that people who are saved may well fall down but will eventually rise up again, while the false plants (who never had salvation) will fall down and not rise up again. God will preserve them in the Faith that are His. This is a word of promise. Salvation can not be undone or redone. Because salvation is not the work of man, nor conditioned on him, it is the work of Jesus Christ and conditioned solely upon Him.

Ok so your saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE to find Jesus then fall back into the ways of the world and not find Him again. But I put it to you, brother, that when they fall back into the ways of the world, turning their backs on Jesus, what happens if they commit murder and rape and die before they have the chance to "rise up again"? I'm just trying to point out to you that its not as black and white as you have been taught it is. But please, enlighten me with your answer.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree. The traditions passed on through Paul were not of man, but of God. As are the traditions in the Catholic Church passed on through St. Peter and the early Church Fathers from the Spirit of God.

this is not true. this is just what they say, if it were not for books and things written hundreds of years after Peter died. the catholic church would have no basis of faith.

 

[homwardbound]

No, brother, you are wrong again. I do believe in sinless perfection. After all, that is what God made us capable of. But please tell me, what if they don't rise up again? It is very easily suffered. If they commit murder after being saved and stay fallen, are they still saved?

7seven7 it is God's sinless perfection not ours. he gives us this a gift for Christ was and is sinless and God sees us this when one comes to the Faith and we respoiond with thankyou and partake in this by Faith, and the Holy Spirit confirms this in us those that believe, is this confirmed in you? has the Holy Ghost testified this to your Spirit? He has mine and I by this world have been tested with opportunity to harm and couldn't do it that is how one knows

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Brother, it is very possible that one can be saved then fall out of the state of grace. Especially in this evil world we live in. Scripture doesn't say that once you are saved, you will beat all temptation and live sinless and not turn you back on Christ. It is very possible to be saved then fall into the ways of the world and turn your back on Christ, then by your answer earlier, lose your salvation.

what you are teaching here is law my friend. The law condemns us of sin. If we can fall away from salvation due to sin, we are under law and not under grace. the apostles did not teach this.

they taught

1. A person saved by grace WILL do good works
2. A person saved by Grace WILL show fruits of true repentance
3. A person saved by grace WILL not be perfect. may nbot grow to maturity, but remain babes (the corinthian church) and may suffer a prodigal son episode. but they are still saved.
4. A person who adds law, is teaching a gospel not of Christ. and will be damned not saved
5. A person who claims to be saved, but has no work (no fruit of repentance) but continues in sin (even if they played the religious game for awhile) hjas never been saved.
6. A person who claims to be saved, but later rejects his conversion and Christ was "never of us" or never saved.

 

[homwardbound]

You said "sinless perfection", not perfect like God. We are very capable of not sinning. We are not capable of matching God's perfection in everything.

Ok, now I'll re-word it for you, so maybe I can get an answer this time. What if they got saved, changed, acted wickedly (commited murder), then got drunk and committed suicide. Are they still saved?

Actually it is between those that did and God, but is is not any fruit of God at all under the new covenant