Daniel is out of chronological order.

[cfultz3]

Now, we should wait on StillWaters

 

[Therapon]

I'd like to request a synopsis of the past 8 pages, I don't want to read through all of the bickering.

Therapon, if you think you know something important could you cut to the chase? If you truly think it is important then you ought to tell us what it is. I won't reject your theory offhandedly so there is no need to lead me on and ply me with questions.
What is your conclusion and reasoning behind it?

Well, I have written six books, done a bunch of videos and a complete almost verse by verse Bible prophecy study guide on CD to prove that all Bible prophecy needing to be fulfilled before the return of the Lord, has already been fulfilled. IMHO, We are just prophetic moments from seeing Jesus appearing in the sky in all power and glory!

This seems to skewer a lot of traditions, thus the warfare. If you want more details, just go to ellisskolfield.com and download The False Prophet, or the 2013 Bible prophecy study guide on the home page. Both are free.

 

[Therapon]

Now, we should wait on StillWaters

I could have probably responded in a more doctrinally acceptable manner, but I thought I'd just call 'em like I see 'em. If you can't tell the truth on a Christian forum, what good are you?

 

[cfultz3]

I could have probably responded in a more doctrinally acceptable manner, but I thought I'd just call 'em like I see 'em. If you can't tell the truth on a Christian forum, what good are you?

You spoke what was on your mind. Can't nothin bes wrong with that.

 

[cfultz3]

Joh 3:3 - 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Let’s start with the basic premise that the words of Christ from the gospel of John are true and that regardless of whether one is New or Old Testament saint they must be born again if they are to enter the kingdom of God. If this were not the case then why would Christ have expected Nicodemus to understand the concept of being born again before the crucifixion and resurrection? The belief that Old Testament saints must know Christ just as you and I do is further confirmed by;

1Co 10:1- 4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Scripture makes it clear that from Adam until the Lord returns the only way one can enter the kingdom of God is to come to know Christ and be born again. As 1Co10:1-4 shows even Old Testament saints like Abraham and Moses drink from the same Rock you and I drink from and that Rock is Christ. Abraham and Moses did not know His name was Jesus they only knew Him as the Messiah. The only difference between an Old Testament saint and a New Testament is not how they are born again but by the method God used to reveal Himself to the two different groups. He revealed Himself to the Old Testament saint through the Old Testament, He reveals Himself to the New Testament saints through the New Testament, end result both are born again by the same method coming to know Christ through the Scriptures.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

So who are the enemies of the gospel that are elect? And how can they be elect if they are enemies of the Gospel?

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Is it possible that enemies of the gospel that are elect are born again Jews that have been given the spirit of slumber until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in? Sure it’s possible and here is how.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression

Romans4:15 makes it clear that where there is no law there is no transgression. So the Jews who have been given the spirit of slumber are not in transgression for not observing what God has sovereignly blinded them to. So with that being the case how can they be born again? They are born again by coming to know Christ the same way Abraham and Moses were. They come to know Christ and are born again through the same Scriptures the Old Testament saints did, the Old Testament. Just like Abraham and Moses they don’t know Jesus’ name, they only know He is the Messiah and that He is coming.

So why would God do this? God made an everlasting covenant with the Jews and He must keep it or He would be a liar. We all know God is not a liar! For God to be true to His word that the covenant is everlasting God would have to keep a remnant under that covenant..

Does this mean that all Jews can ignore the New Testament? Of course not, remember it was blindness in part, not all of Israel. This can only apply to those that have been given a spirit of slumber until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. All others are allowed to see the First Advent of Christ and the Gospel so all others must come to know Christ and be born again as a result.

Doulos,

Now that it has calmed down, this is worth another read. BTW, well done in presentation.

 

[Therapon]

He has u on ignore zone...

Yeah, if I had done it sooner, it would have saved me at least one ulcer. <grin>

 

[cfultz3]

I just a 5 months supply of moose track ice cream.....now I am very cold

 

[Therapon]

I just want to ask something. . Was there a time "Before faith came"?. . .

Those that died and were buried by the time Jesus Christ came, died and resurrected - bringing about that "faith through him". Can they have "faith in Jesus Christ" being that they are dead and buried? or will they be judged by their faith in God and their works according to the Law since that's all they knew?

I do not want to start any arguments, PLEASE. . . Just Thoughts . . .

LOL, I'm not be arguing type. So lets look at what first Corinthians 10:1-5

"For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual food; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ."

So acceptance of Jesus as their Messiah was not required for the Old Testament Israelites. Some on this thread are having a problem accepting that Jews during the Christian era, with the same blind spiritual condition, Romans 11:8, could also be saved. Theirs is a very reasonable goals position that I held myself for many years.

 

[Therapon]

bump...i am out..nit alll

if a Jew has been quickened by the Holy Spirit to the fact that Yeshua is their Messiah, and they reject the Spirit's irrefutable witness, then they are not only lost, but they have committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. If you wonder why I phrase it exactly that way, read Mark3:28-29 . . .

"Verily I say unto you, All their sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and their blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."

You want to talk about some scary, that's got to be it, but if a blinded Jew has not rejected the witness of the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Christ, then he has not committed that sin. God is looking at the heart, not the doctrine. If salvation depended on having perfect doctrine then none of us are going to heaven because only God understands His word perfectly.

 

[Therapon]

I just ate a 5 months supply of moose track ice cream.....now I am very cold

e

Mercy, how did you ever get it all down? If I tried something like that, I'd be in the hospital.

 

[doulos]

e

Mercy, how did you ever get it all down? If I tried something like that, I'd be in the hospital.

ROFL I'd settle for a single bowl ice cream is a luxury!

 

[cfultz3]

e

Mercy, how did you ever get it all down? If I tried something like that, I'd be in the hospital.

lol.....one man's cup is another man's gallon....I was trying to joke around.....it was about a cup....

 

[doulos]

Daniel 5:30 “In that night Belshazzar the Chaldean King was slain.”
Daniel 7:1 “In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon”
Daniel 8:1 “In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar.”

Those are the scriptural givens. Daniel 7 and 8 were obviously written before chapter 5, so Daniel is unarguably out of chronological order. Now look at this . . .

Daniel 6:1 “It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom a hundred and twenty satraps.”
Daniel 9:1 “In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes.”

Daniel was “daily in the king’s court,” second ruler in the land, obviously a master of court protocol, so he would never have started writing about a king before telling the reader who that king was. In Daniel 9, Darius is introduced. In Daniel 6, the readers already know who Darius is, so Daniel 9 was written before Daniel 6.

In Daniel 12:4, God tells Daniel to “seal and conceal the words of this book.” in Daniel 12:9, we read, “these words are sealed and concealed until the time of the end.” Now Daniel could not rewrite what the Holy Spirit had inspired, but he had to do something to obey the command of 12:4. So it appears that Daniel put his visions out of chronological order. Here is their original chronological order . . .

1. Introduction, ch.1, in Hebrew.
2. The great image, ch.2, in Chaldee.
3. the fiery furnace, ch.3 in Chaldee.
4. Nebuchadnezzar goes insane, ch.4, in Chaldee
5. The four Beasts (now ch.7) in Chaldee.
6. The Two Beasts (now ch.8) in Chaldee.
7, Belshazzar dies., ch.5, in Chaldee.
8. The 70 weeks, ch.9, in Hebrew.
9. Daniel in the lion’s den, ch. 6, in Chaldee.
10. Two Empires, ch 10-12 in Hebrew.

That is from irrefutable scriptural evidence! When Daniel put his chapters out of order, as we now see in the Bible, Daniel accomplished two things:

First: he put the Hebrew chapters separate from the Chaldee chapters, clearly showing that Daniel indeed had two audiences: (1) the Gentile nations who would control the holy land into the distant future (2) the future of the Jewish people during that same. So Daniel is bifidic and his prophecies to Gentiles and Jews are primarily about same “the time of the Gentiles.”

Second: it can be shown beyond reasonable doubt that Daniel actually does have 2 chiasms, the first a three-part in Chaldee to the Gentiles, second a two-part in Hebrew to the Jews. Neither would have been formed if Daniel had not been put out of order!

A ch.2, The Great Image 4 Gentile Empires
B ch.3, The Fiery Furnace God's People in Tribulation
C ch.4, Nebuchadnezzar Insane Gentile Rulers Judged
C ch.5, Belshazzar Killed Gentile Rulers Judged
B ch.6, The Lions Den God's People in Tribulation
A ch.7,The Four Beasts 4 Gentile Empires

The four empires in the great image are the same as the four empires of the four beasts, foretelling who would control the holy land during “the time of the Gentiles.” The fiery furnace and the lion’s den are both about God’s chosen people in tribulation during the “time of the Gentiles.” Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar being judged are still future, symbolic of God’s final judgment on those who desecrated his Temple Mount and made His people suffer.

And I think I’ll start a new thread with this, titled “Daniel’s 1st Chiasm.” If It does nothing else, it will keep Zone busy. <grin>

Whichever you prefer but I would like to see you continue if the distractions are over!

 

[Abiding]

Look Abiding, there is a vast difference between not agreeing with my posts and saying so, and distorting, misrepresenting and in some cases lying about them, coupled with ridicule and disrespect, which I bend ever effort not to do, because, Scripture says, "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him," Proverbs 16:4.

A lot of guests come on here and read the discourtesy and open insults, and what do you suppose that does to our supposedly Christian witness? Frankly, I'm sick of it and you should be, too. You guys chief worry seems to be that everyone is on the same doctrinal page, my major concern is that I do not displease the Lord in what I post.

Well why do you tell me this i just asked why you wont answer questions. I didnt ask you to like being distorted.

 

[Abiding]

Please don't take offence, but the "you guys" was not about you at all, my dear. It was about the post I was answering, i.e., Abiding and his compadres.

Shameful statement Therapon, i have no comrades. Seems to me your doing to me what you dont like.

 

[Gifts]

I will check out your website Ellis(?). Your suggestion that the two lampstands are churches seems reasonable to me, but can Jewish believers be called a church? I was under the impression that the term church as we know it is exclusive to Christianity. Maybe it is two denominations or ideologies within Christianity at large. It would be a lot easier to discuss these things with our voices if that could be arranged.

Also, do not the witnesses die and rise from the dead after 3 and 1/2 days?

Also what about how there is only one name under Heaven by which we must be saved? You may be right though, ultimately it is love for God that saves all of us. I agree that many self-proclaimed Christians are just as blind as any Jew spiritually, maybe all of us. Too many of us have preconceptions about what God will do, and how and why.

Also here is a friendly reminder to everyone that we must be patient and gentle with each other, and having heated arguments where it is obvious neither side will give quarter is pointless. Divide and conquer is a very basic strategy applied in many theaters, and it is likely that satan uses this strategy in my opinion. We've got to stand together.

 

[zone]

Menachem Begin was a prisoner in the Warsaw ghetto. He saw his parents and 500 other Jews driven into the Warsaw River and gunned down by the Nazis. As their blood stained the river red, they had their hands raised toward heaven and were singing that touching Jewish hymn, “Oh, how we love our Messiah and long for His appearance.” They weren’t praying to a tree or some false idol, but to the same Messiah I love with my whole heart.

no they weren't. not the same Messiah AT ALL.

there is NO OTHER NAME. NONE.
JESUS OF NAZARETH.

they rejected Jesus of Nazareth.

who cares if your heart was melted over an Ergun terrorist's story?
a story that make you decide that jews who sing about something from Moses (whom they do not believe) after knowingly rejecting Jesus Christ are saved?

tell me how you know those people weren't singing for Rebbe Schneerson?

how easily you play loose with the Lord and His Anointed, The Holy One.
you think people can deny the very Lord that bought them?

and you think a circumcised heart happens without the new birth?

"Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed."

what's that veil for Therapon? preservation?

haven't you read the words of JESUS?

John 5
43I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? 45Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”


Luke 16
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.f The rich man also died and was buried, 23and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothersg—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”


Paul's words mean nothing compared to Begin's...or yours.

2 Corinthians 3
Ministers of the New Covenant
1Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you? 2You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on oura hearts, to be known and read by all. 3And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.b

4Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6who has made us competentc to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

12Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. 15Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 16But when oned turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17Now the Lorde is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord,f are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.


you don't believe any of that.

 

[Therapon]

Shameful statement Therapon, i have no comrades. Seems to me your doing to me what you dont like.

OK, Abiding, I apologize for offending you. I'm getting on, you know. When I was beset round about, you all ran together in my mind.

 

[loveme1]

Though my heart says Come my Lord, i believe much is yet to come to pass before the Messiah returns.

i believe some are unwittingly laying the way for the "deceivers" to deceive people.

 

[Therapon]

Well why do you tell me this i just asked why you wont answer questions. I didnt ask you to like being distorted.

Brother, my answering questions depends on the tone of the quetioner. I try to be polite and respectful to all and expect to be treated the same way. Polite and respectful questioners get answered. The others do not, now that I've learned how to use "ignore."