USURPING AUTHORITY
- Thread starter Stephen63
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
1) do you believe the Toronto Blessing was of God?
sub-questions for precision:
I am referring to those people who were exposed to the 'Toronto Blessing' as you referred to it. Many things do not come from God as the source and initiator, but many things are used of God in his plan to do a work in the heart of the believer (including chastening) and to glorify himself in that believer. In that sense all things are of God and for our sake and work together for the good, just as they were for the born again believers in Corinth that were exposed to many things that resulted in division and even dissension. Not only are the proved one manifest but also those who are born of God that need to be tested so they can be approved. There will also be those who fail the test and God will be faithful to try them again and purify his word, even if it means sevens times in Psalm 12:6 and you can include Psalm 18:30, 105:9 and Jeremiah 23:29.
How do you deal with 2 Samuel 16:5-11 for your learning and for your correction and instruction in righteousness. I know how it has corrected and instructed me, but what has it done for you? It is all inspired.
5 And when king David came to Bahurim, behold, thence came out a man of the family of the house of Saul, whose name was Shimei, the son of Gera: he came forth , and cursed still as he came . 6 And he cast stones at David, and at all the servants of king David: and all the people and all the mighty men were on his right hand and on his left. 7 And thus said Shimei when he cursed , Come out , come out , thou bloody man, and thou man of Belial: 8 The LORD hath returned upon thee all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose stead thou hast reigned ; and the LORD hath delivered the kingdom into the hand of Absalom thy son: and, behold, thou art taken in thy mischief, because thou art a bloody man. 9 Then said Abishai the son of Zeruiah unto the king, Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? let me go over , I pray thee, and take off his head. (Doesn't this sound a little like that young ruddy David when he was a youth and stood up against Goliath)10 And the king said , What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah? so let him curse , because the LORD hath said unto him, Curse David. Who shall then say , Wherefore hast thou done so ? 11 And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which came forth of my bowels, seeketh my life: how much more now may this Benjamite do it? let him alone , and let him curse ; for the LORD hath bidden him.
Perhaps David, whose heart was after God, never would give place to usurping authority over the house of Saul. Many believers in churches never think twice of usurping authority over the pastor and the word he has been given to preach. As soon as the pastor teaches some doctrine they disagree with they have to exalt themselves and usurp authority and let others know what they think.
sub-questions for precision:
I am referring to those people who were exposed to the 'Toronto Blessing' as you referred to it. Many things do not come from God as the source and initiator, but many things are used of God in his plan to do a work in the heart of the believer (including chastening) and to glorify himself in that believer. In that sense all things are of God and for our sake and work together for the good, just as they were for the born again believers in Corinth that were exposed to many things that resulted in division and even dissension. Not only are the proved one manifest but also those who are born of God that need to be tested so they can be approved. There will also be those who fail the test and God will be faithful to try them again and purify his word, even if it means sevens times in Psalm 12:6 and you can include Psalm 18:30, 105:9 and Jeremiah 23:29.
How do you deal with 2 Samuel 16:5-11 for your learning and for your correction and instruction in righteousness. I know how it has corrected and instructed me, but what has it done for you? It is all inspired.
5 And when king David came to Bahurim, behold, thence came out a man of the family of the house of Saul, whose name was Shimei, the son of Gera: he came forth , and cursed still as he came . 6 And he cast stones at David, and at all the servants of king David: and all the people and all the mighty men were on his right hand and on his left. 7 And thus said Shimei when he cursed , Come out , come out , thou bloody man, and thou man of Belial: 8 The LORD hath returned upon thee all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose stead thou hast reigned ; and the LORD hath delivered the kingdom into the hand of Absalom thy son: and, behold, thou art taken in thy mischief, because thou art a bloody man. 9 Then said Abishai the son of Zeruiah unto the king, Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? let me go over , I pray thee, and take off his head. (Doesn't this sound a little like that young ruddy David when he was a youth and stood up against Goliath)10 And the king said , What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah? so let him curse , because the LORD hath said unto him, Curse David. Who shall then say , Wherefore hast thou done so ? 11 And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which came forth of my bowels, seeketh my life: how much more now may this Benjamite do it? let him alone , and let him curse ; for the LORD hath bidden him.
Perhaps David, whose heart was after God, never would give place to usurping authority over the house of Saul. Many believers in churches never think twice of usurping authority over the pastor and the word he has been given to preach. As soon as the pastor teaches some doctrine they disagree with they have to exalt themselves and usurp authority and let others know what they think.
H
Zone, you said "i attended a Pentecostal church every 2nd sunday for 3 months when i was in Christian rehab. i had to.
i was never a member, and never once thought any of it was Biblical.
then years later.....i stumbled unknowningly into a Toronto (Cursing) Blessing church and got a kundalini spirit passed to me and had to fast and pray for deliverance.
that's all." I am sorry that happened to you. That must have been awful. Did someone lay hands on you? How did this happen? Tell us so this doesn't happen to anyone else. Did you pray and fast alone with God for deliverance or did others help you? Yours is not a typical experience and in no way reflective of all or most Pentecostals. Please keep in mind there are good Pentecostals too.
i was never a member, and never once thought any of it was Biblical.
then years later.....i stumbled unknowningly into a Toronto (Cursing) Blessing church and got a kundalini spirit passed to me and had to fast and pray for deliverance.
that's all." I am sorry that happened to you. That must have been awful. Did someone lay hands on you? How did this happen? Tell us so this doesn't happen to anyone else. Did you pray and fast alone with God for deliverance or did others help you? Yours is not a typical experience and in no way reflective of all or most Pentecostals. Please keep in mind there are good Pentecostals too.
G
Usurping authority means swallowing up authority. Paul wants the women (He says nothing of the sort of women pastors here) to be quiet and not teach that they are in authority over the men and women are certainly not to have authority over the men of the church.
But, this 1 Tim. 2:12 is NOT about women pastors , at all . It's about women in the church getting a hankering to feel their oats and become leaders in the church. No ! As a general rule, no ! They are not to be in the roles of authority. Why? Man was formed first then woman, plus, woman was deceived.
But, is this verse talking about women pastors swallowing up authority over a man? No, no. Don't be bad and think that, that's a no-no to think false thoughts and put things in Scripture that are not there. You can argue til your blue in the face about chapter three just of Paul speaking to bishops as men only, but , NO, NO, it does not say that, not anywhere. Why think it. It is false teaching, is it not, to do so .
The Lord leads !
It all makes perfect sense then now, right .
But, this 1 Tim. 2:12 is NOT about women pastors , at all . It's about women in the church getting a hankering to feel their oats and become leaders in the church. No ! As a general rule, no ! They are not to be in the roles of authority. Why? Man was formed first then woman, plus, woman was deceived.
But, is this verse talking about women pastors swallowing up authority over a man? No, no. Don't be bad and think that, that's a no-no to think false thoughts and put things in Scripture that are not there. You can argue til your blue in the face about chapter three just of Paul speaking to bishops as men only, but , NO, NO, it does not say that, not anywhere. Why think it. It is false teaching, is it not, to do so .
The Lord leads !
It all makes perfect sense then now, right .
yes.
the Spirit prompted me: prayer and fasting.
after He showed me my Bible collecting dust on a shelf after i had been enjoying liver shivers and whatnot for months.
He and i did it together. alone.
i never said Pentecostals aren't nice poeple. i said the practices are unbiblical and it is some other spirit.
nothing practiced with this 'gifts' dealy is authentic.
all counterfeit.
but hey....to each their own.
thx for asking though.
the Spirit prompted me: prayer and fasting.
after He showed me my Bible collecting dust on a shelf after i had been enjoying liver shivers and whatnot for months.
He and i did it together. alone.
i never said Pentecostals aren't nice poeple. i said the practices are unbiblical and it is some other spirit.
nothing practiced with this 'gifts' dealy is authentic.
all counterfeit.
but hey....to each their own.
thx for asking though.
don't care if you judge my denom or not
you're not really in a position to.
but go for it. i'll help:
COLD, DEAD ORTHODOXY
pentecostal theology and practice is unbiblical.
but don't take my word for it.
History of Pentecostalism
When did it all start? Ask a Pentecostal, and they'll tell you "33 A.D. -- the Day of Pentecost!" Well, this isn't the case exactly! There have been a few brief movements throughout Christian history that resembled some aspects of Pentecostalism, a few people that "dabbled" in tongues -- but nothing that is really comparable, or has lasted as long as the modern movement. What we know as the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement didn't really get started until the beginning of the 20th Century, at the Topeka and Azusa Street (LA) revivals.
There are hundreds of links in the internet about such histories, and a few of them are "lush" with their own dogma and jargon. To separate the history from the . . . well, garbage, I've assembled some of the best links detailing Pentecostal/Charismatic histories. Some of these links are from denominational resources within these movements, but those that are (and that I have chosen) have presented their past rather subjectively -- and without a lot of the Pentecostal hoopla.
Some of the links -- denoted by an asterisk (*) -- will take you to sites off of this website. After viewing off-site information, simply use the "Back" button of your browser to return to AFP. AFP is not responsible for information on third party sites.
The Origins of the Pentecostal Movement* From ORU, a history of the movement from Azusa to many of the many of the major denominations of today. Surprisingly objective.
Assessing the Roots of Pentecostalism* An interesting piece on the "make-up" of the Pentecostal movement, and how it grew to be the largest growing sector in Christianity.
Pentecostal History* Timeline that traces Pentecostalism from early Catholic "heresies" to the modern movements.
Pentecostalism* Religious Movements' online profile of the movement.
Pre-Pentecostalist History* An article listing the events leading up to the Pentecostal movement. Though objective in facts, it starts off a bit like a P/C pep rally.
Azusa Street Timeline* A brief history of the "ground zero" location of this movement, listing its brief importance to the movement that eventually outgrew this little store-front.
Pentecostalism After Azusa* A description of the aftermath of Azusa on its spiritual descendents. Briefly illustrates the beginning of the Church of God in Christ, the Foursquare Church, and the Oneness Movement.
On Some Movements* Brief notations on some of the "mutations" that sprang from the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement: The "Latter Rain," "Word of Faith," and "Shepherding" movements. Lists some non-Pentecostal oddities as well.
History of the Pentecostal Holiness Movement*
A Brief History of the United Pentecostal Church*
History of the Oneness Pentecostals*
The Pentecostal Movement* A sociological review of Pentecostalism and how it has affected society today.
History of Pentecostalism < click
you're not really in a position to.
but go for it. i'll help:
COLD, DEAD ORTHODOXY
pentecostal theology and practice is unbiblical.
but don't take my word for it.
History of Pentecostalism
When did it all start? Ask a Pentecostal, and they'll tell you "33 A.D. -- the Day of Pentecost!" Well, this isn't the case exactly! There have been a few brief movements throughout Christian history that resembled some aspects of Pentecostalism, a few people that "dabbled" in tongues -- but nothing that is really comparable, or has lasted as long as the modern movement. What we know as the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement didn't really get started until the beginning of the 20th Century, at the Topeka and Azusa Street (LA) revivals.
There are hundreds of links in the internet about such histories, and a few of them are "lush" with their own dogma and jargon. To separate the history from the . . . well, garbage, I've assembled some of the best links detailing Pentecostal/Charismatic histories. Some of these links are from denominational resources within these movements, but those that are (and that I have chosen) have presented their past rather subjectively -- and without a lot of the Pentecostal hoopla.
Some of the links -- denoted by an asterisk (*) -- will take you to sites off of this website. After viewing off-site information, simply use the "Back" button of your browser to return to AFP. AFP is not responsible for information on third party sites.
The Origins of the Pentecostal Movement* From ORU, a history of the movement from Azusa to many of the many of the major denominations of today. Surprisingly objective.
Assessing the Roots of Pentecostalism* An interesting piece on the "make-up" of the Pentecostal movement, and how it grew to be the largest growing sector in Christianity.
Pentecostal History* Timeline that traces Pentecostalism from early Catholic "heresies" to the modern movements.
Pentecostalism* Religious Movements' online profile of the movement.
Pre-Pentecostalist History* An article listing the events leading up to the Pentecostal movement. Though objective in facts, it starts off a bit like a P/C pep rally.
Azusa Street Timeline* A brief history of the "ground zero" location of this movement, listing its brief importance to the movement that eventually outgrew this little store-front.
Pentecostalism After Azusa* A description of the aftermath of Azusa on its spiritual descendents. Briefly illustrates the beginning of the Church of God in Christ, the Foursquare Church, and the Oneness Movement.
On Some Movements* Brief notations on some of the "mutations" that sprang from the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement: The "Latter Rain," "Word of Faith," and "Shepherding" movements. Lists some non-Pentecostal oddities as well.
History of the Pentecostal Holiness Movement*
A Brief History of the United Pentecostal Church*
History of the Oneness Pentecostals*
The Pentecostal Movement* A sociological review of Pentecostalism and how it has affected society today.
History of Pentecostalism < click
Last edited:
G
That's right, ohzone,, to each their own. God HAS given each their own thoughts, and, ways of doing things. Our thoughts are not our thoughts and the only one, besides God, who knows YOUR THOUGHTS that God instills to you is YOU.
So, sure, wouldn't it be hunky Dory IF God allowed us to see miracles, signs, to prove Himself? Sure, but, that's not happened to you so you can't say it has. You can't . Unclefes wants to see someone's miracles God'$ done to them/through them? He can't !
God's (obviously) not shown Him another's thoughts as truth, and, what's more, God says He won't show us others' thoughts.
We aren't extraterrestial beings, we can't have an out of body experience inside someone else's 'gifts' expeeiencing body, LOL.
What do you mean by 'don't think for you, milady, I simply said you are believing in spiritual gifts but not in people's telling experiendes of having witnessed/been of a miracle done through God of another or self.
What'$ wrong with that? How rich of you to beat down my thoughts without explaining yours.
What do.you think then regarding spiritual gifts, my language was care-fully guarded, asking you to put your OWN THOUGHTS down on here, was it not, no?
Anyway, hash tag, hash tag, hash tag , just leave your pentecostal 'spirit' stuff bashing out of thrads because you speak blindly, again, ohzone,, you cannot and do not and will NOT ever be able to truly KNOW another's thoughts and how God is intimately leading their life and their thoughts. It'$ not about you, it's about that person's personal experience with God and to trash their experience just makes you look.foolish, for only he/she and Him are in on it, whatever 'it' is, miracles or otherwise.
So continue your denial of their testimony of gifts in that person's life, and, it could get God to show you, too, signs and wonders and miracle or two around you done THROUGH OTHERS by Him, but, in meantime, your just barking up.the wrong tree continuing to bash an DC trash those who God's used to edify, show His glory through tongues, healings, prophesying, or, whatever 'gifts' means God uses to show the individual . Again, also, to.repeat, I have never spoke in tongues , never prophesied, that I know of, anyway, never healed anyone by God's power working through me, but can it happen? If the God I.serve says it possible, if He wills , I have faith of a mustard seed He can and will use me in this way
By His authority, all will be done
So, sure, wouldn't it be hunky Dory IF God allowed us to see miracles, signs, to prove Himself? Sure, but, that's not happened to you so you can't say it has. You can't . Unclefes wants to see someone's miracles God'$ done to them/through them? He can't !
God's (obviously) not shown Him another's thoughts as truth, and, what's more, God says He won't show us others' thoughts.
We aren't extraterrestial beings, we can't have an out of body experience inside someone else's 'gifts' expeeiencing body, LOL.
What do you mean by 'don't think for you, milady, I simply said you are believing in spiritual gifts but not in people's telling experiendes of having witnessed/been of a miracle done through God of another or self.
What'$ wrong with that? How rich of you to beat down my thoughts without explaining yours.
What do.you think then regarding spiritual gifts, my language was care-fully guarded, asking you to put your OWN THOUGHTS down on here, was it not, no?
Anyway, hash tag, hash tag, hash tag , just leave your pentecostal 'spirit' stuff bashing out of thrads because you speak blindly, again, ohzone,, you cannot and do not and will NOT ever be able to truly KNOW another's thoughts and how God is intimately leading their life and their thoughts. It'$ not about you, it's about that person's personal experience with God and to trash their experience just makes you look.foolish, for only he/she and Him are in on it, whatever 'it' is, miracles or otherwise.
So continue your denial of their testimony of gifts in that person's life, and, it could get God to show you, too, signs and wonders and miracle or two around you done THROUGH OTHERS by Him, but, in meantime, your just barking up.the wrong tree continuing to bash an DC trash those who God's used to edify, show His glory through tongues, healings, prophesying, or, whatever 'gifts' means God uses to show the individual . Again, also, to.repeat, I have never spoke in tongues , never prophesied, that I know of, anyway, never healed anyone by God's power working through me, but can it happen? If the God I.serve says it possible, if He wills , I have faith of a mustard seed He can and will use me in this way
By His authority, all will be done
Last edited by a moderator:
There is a group that observes in a bit differently than you might expect: First of all they (men and women alike) accept what the Bible says about the line of subjection @ 1 Cor 11:3. Men and women alike participate in preaching work. If a woman meets a man while preaching and he wants to begin a Bible study, then she'll refer the contact to a man in the congregation to be his Bible teacher. If a woman wants to begin a study then she will continue as the woman's Bible teacher. It's not a 'men are higher than women' thing. It's more like, men have more responsibility and answer to Christ directly and on women's behalf, the same way Christ answers to God on our behalf. That's to be humble...a strength not weakness.
A woman would not stand before and lead a congregation where there are able bodied men to teach; However, if a woman is the only person in the position to read and teach (if for some reason the man is not physically or otherwise able) or if her teaching practice is being observed by a congregation leader or brother; Then she would cover her head to express her subjection visually in the man's presence. (I have seen a woman use a tissue in an unexpected situation.) If Christ was in the room, then it stands to reason that the man would also cover his head to visually show his subjection in Christ's presence. The whole thing is an expression of God's arrangement. He is a God of order and organization and the universe reflects this concept in everything.
We should understand and appreciate this idea. Because if we look at the worlds military organizations for example, there is a code of dress that applies when they are in certain company and rank. There are many laws, rules and expectations of behavior and allegiance that we apply to serving other humans. So it shouldn't confuse us to accept God's way of doing things. But, as usual, humans have to turn these ideas into a source of contention and fussing.
I find it refreshing to know that there is a group like the one I mentioned above, who share the common focus on the Kingdom and what the Bible says; and not on nitpicking and pecking others about God's way of doing things.
That's what I think.
A woman would not stand before and lead a congregation where there are able bodied men to teach; However, if a woman is the only person in the position to read and teach (if for some reason the man is not physically or otherwise able) or if her teaching practice is being observed by a congregation leader or brother; Then she would cover her head to express her subjection visually in the man's presence. (I have seen a woman use a tissue in an unexpected situation.) If Christ was in the room, then it stands to reason that the man would also cover his head to visually show his subjection in Christ's presence. The whole thing is an expression of God's arrangement. He is a God of order and organization and the universe reflects this concept in everything.
We should understand and appreciate this idea. Because if we look at the worlds military organizations for example, there is a code of dress that applies when they are in certain company and rank. There are many laws, rules and expectations of behavior and allegiance that we apply to serving other humans. So it shouldn't confuse us to accept God's way of doing things. But, as usual, humans have to turn these ideas into a source of contention and fussing.
I find it refreshing to know that there is a group like the one I mentioned above, who share the common focus on the Kingdom and what the Bible says; and not on nitpicking and pecking others about God's way of doing things.
That's what I think.