An atheist's testimony

[HappyLuke]

I was one of those that was "born submerged in a religious, faith-promoting culture yet consider themselves to be scientifically, sceptically minded people that care about the truth." And I'm a stronger Christian when it comes to faith than I've ever been. And that's after I took a large number of science courses in a secular university. Those courses only served to strengthen my faith. My faith has been justified through reason, though even without reason, it would have been justified by my personal relationship with God. Science constantly changes, if you haven't noticed, or the theories do, because new evidence is always being found that alters former beliefs. I'm old enough to have seen that happen repeatedly just in the course of my lifetime. Should I believe what science has determined today to be true, or should I wait 20 years and believe what they say then? Or should I wait even longer? God; however, never changes, and I will always have my relationship with God, which ultimately justifies my faith. You assume people with faith never study, never question, never learn about modern science, history, etc. And you could not be more wrong. If this is your only argument, you definitely need a new one.

Wow massive massive assumption at the end there, as you accused me of assuming so much!
As if commit the very mistake you are accusing me of in that very sentence
I'm not hear to present arguments against God, I'm hear to try and find arguments for God. Hence why I have to regularly confront the issue of people telling me to just believe on faith, that's not something that's smart if you care about finding out the truth.

 

[HappyLuke]

Faith means things don't have to have 100% assurance on something, but you believe it. You have faith in science, which is ever changing.

But I don't believe that science's current answers wont change, I don't have trust in it or any confidence beyond what the evidence shows.
If you broaden the definition of faith enough to include anything you believe based on good evidence (which is fine, I can work with that) you aren't making sense when you say things like "believing scientific evidence X takes as much faith as believing supernatural claim Y"
If there's good evidence something, you can say it takes faith to believe it, but now what on Earth do you mean when you say it takes more faith to believe something on good evidence than to believe a supernatural claims without evidence?

It feels like:
You: We are defining faith as belief
Me: okay, then I'm fine with saying I have faith in many things science has established with lots of evidence.
You: It takes more faith to believe in the moon than to believe an unsupported miracle claim
Me: *brain explodes*

 

[HappyLuke]

If I held the belief "science's current answers are true", I might believe it on faith.
I only really believe "science's current answers are very likely to be close approximations of the truth, because they are based on lots of evidence"

I don't *believe* science in the *this is the truth* way you are thinking
I understand that it's results based, and more and more results can refine an answer's margin of error, but never get to absolute certainty. I don't hold beliefs as if they are the truth, but as if they are useful models that could be wrong

 

[Nuns_n_roses]

But I don't believe that science's current answers wont change, I don't have trust in it or any confidence beyond what the evidence shows.
If you broaden the definition of faith enough to include anything you believe based on good evidence (which is fine, I can work with that) you aren't making sense when you say things like "believing scientific evidence X takes as much faith as believing supernatural claim Y"
If there's good evidence something, you can say it takes faith to believe it, but now what on Earth do you mean when you say it takes more faith to believe something on good evidence than to believe a supernatural claims without evidence?

It feels like:
You: We are defining faith as belief
Me: okay, then I'm fine with saying I have faith in many things science has established with lots of evidence.
You: It takes more faith to believe in the moon than to believe an unsupported miracle claim
Me: *brain explodes*

LOL

No we are just interpreting this differently. xD Communication fail!!!!
What I'm saying is, you have "evidence" but if you've never BEEN there and literally SEEN it happen before your very eyes when it did, is there really enough sufficient evidence unless you have faith in it?

God makes sense, because God can manipulate all of creation. Therefore He pwns science LoL

We seem to be speaking in circles... because we're both thinking differently than the other in regards to this conversation

 

[Nuns_n_roses]

If I held the belief "science's current answers are true", I might believe it on faith.
I only really believe "science's current answers are very likely to be close approximations of the truth, because they are based on lots of evidence"

I don't *believe* science in the *this is the truth* way you are thinking
I understand that it's results based, and more and more results can refine an answer's margin of error, but never get to absolute certainty. I don't hold beliefs as if they are the truth, but as if they are useful models that could be wrong

Ok what do you believe EXACTLY then? You believe in the Big Bang ya?

 

[HappyLuke]

Why out of all the species on Earth do humans seek a God? Why do we long for meaning? Why would our minds even be capable of creating such images if there was no purpose behind it? Do we just want an imaginary friend or is it deeper than that?.

Humans are the most intelligent species, we have evolved minds that are highly specialized in simulating other minds, to help us navigate complex social interations. Our brains are built to search for meaning so that we can find new patterns and discover new behaviours, we fill what's called the 'cognitive niche'. Problem solving is our thing, just like eating a particular untapped food source is the giraffe's thing.

 

[Nuns_n_roses]

Humans are the most intelligent species, we have evolved minds that are highly specialized in simulating other minds, to help us navigate complex social interations. Our brains are built to search for meaning so that we can find new patterns and discover new behaviours, we fill what's called the 'cognitive niche'. Problem solving is our thing, just like eating a particular untapped food source is the giraffe's thing.

Yes, but WHY are we more developed intellectually? WHY of the millions of creatures do we have this highly evolved brain?

 

[HappyLuke]

Ok what do you believe EXACTLY then? You believe in the Big Bang ya?

Yes but I'm concerned that like many theists, you probably share a slight misunderstanding about the big bang. It doesn't include "and everything came out of nothing", that's speculation, beyond what's been confirmed, and it's not claimed to be the case by 'the big bang theory'.

I believe the universe expanded from an incredibly hot, incredibly dense state about 13.8 billion years ago. Two or three generations of stars have lived and died, and we are made from their ashes.
I believe this (to reasonable, everyday, fallible certainty) because of the proto galaxies we can see at extreme distance, their closeness together, their red shifted light showing the expansion of space, the cosmic microwave background radiation, the ratio of elements matching calculations of what they should be according to the temperatures of the early universe, aaaand.... perhaps a few other reasons too

 

[HappyLuke]

Yes, but WHY are we more developed intellectually? WHY of the millions of creatures do we have this highly evolved brain?

To fill the ecological niche
Just like why giraffes have the longest neck - to exploit an untapped food source, an untapped niche in the ecosystem

 

[Nuns_n_roses]

Yes but I'm concerned that like many theists, you probably share a slight misunderstanding about the big bang. It doesn't include "and everything came out of nothing", that's speculation, beyond what's been confirmed, and it's not claimed to be the case by 'the big bang theory'.

I believe the universe expanded from an incredibly hot, incredibly dense state about 13.8 billion years ago. Two or three generations of stars have lived and died, and we are made from their ashes.
I believe this (to reasonable, everyday certainty) because of the proto galaxies we can see at extreme distance, their closeness together, their red shifted light showing the expansion of space, the cosmic microwave background radiation, the ratio of elements matching calculations of what they should be according to the temperatures of the early universe, aaaand.... perhaps a few other reasons too

Well Christians believe we were made from dust so I guess we share a similarity with that sorta anyway LoL So you believe we were created by the ashes of stars then. And that the universe is able to manipulate itself into reasonable conditions via ratios of elements, etc.

 

[Nuns_n_roses]

To fill the ecological niche
Just like why giraffes have the longest neck - to exploit an untapped food source, an untapped niche in the ecosystem

So we have evolved to fill an ecological niche? What do you believe is the meaning of any of this? What's the meaning of the existence of life? What worth do we have as thinking, feeling beings?

 

[HappyLuke]

So we have evolved to fill an ecological niche? What do you believe is the meaning of any of this? What's the meaning of the existence of life? What worth do we have as thinking, feeling beings?

It sounds like you are using meaning as a synonym with purpose there, so of course if there's no creator being, there's no purpose.
That doesn't make life 'meaningless' and 'worthless' though
You don't have to be a valuable pawn in someone else's plan to value your life, you find meaning in life by learning to enjoy it, learning to appreciate it and sharing these skills.
Or, some people find meaning doing less productive things like computer games or world domination or getting as rich as possible. We make our own purposes for our lives, depending on what kind of life we want to live and what kind of world we want to live in. Fortunately, as we evolved to fit the cognitive niche we became a colonial, cooperative species, so over 99% of us are born with brains that inherently experience sympathy, and we naturally care about the well being of others. So the vast majority of people out there share similar, loving, caring purposes for their lives
It's easy to find meaning in kindness, we are built to feel other people's pain

 

[HappyLuke]

"What worth do we have as thinking, feeling beings?"
What worth thinking feeling beings have to you depends on how much you value other thinking feeling beings.
I personally value others immensely, and I feel I could make a good argument why you should too, but ultimately worth depends on if you value something, it's a subjective thing.
There are some people out there that don't value other people's lives, but there's vastly more people that do
I think we are both people that would value other people, regardless of if a creator does.

 

[Nuns_n_roses]

It sounds like you are using meaning as a synonym with purpose there, so of course if there's no creator being, there's no purpose.
That doesn't make life 'meaningless' and 'worthless' though
You don't have to be a valuable pawn in someone else's plan to value your life, you find meaning in life by learning to enjoy it, learning to appreciate it and sharing these skills.
Or, some people find meaning doing less productive things like computer games or world domination or getting as rich as possible. We make our own purposes for our lives, depending on what kind of life we want to live and what kind of world we want to live in. Fortunately, as we evolved to fit the cognitive niche we became a colonial, cooperative species, so over 99% of us are born with brains that inherently experience sympathy, and we naturally care about the well being of others. So the vast majority of people out there share similar, loving, caring purposes for their lives
It's easy to find meaning in kindness, we are built to feel other people's pain

I wasn't asking about purpose necessarily, but what is the meaning in lives like yours? I wondered where your values lie. I wanted to hear your response and I got it. Yes I believe that people can have meaningful lives without a belief in a deity or afterlife. I find your beliefs rather intriguing. I have been taught much through your eyes, and why do you even seek evidence of God? You surely don't need one with the beliefs that you have. They seem to work for you afterall. It is merely to seek expansion and be confronted with fresh perspectives? Enlighten me.

 

[Timofree]

Thanks for sharing Luke these kind of debates could go on forever........... I used to think apologetics was the best way to evangelise, debating about evolution etc etc. But that would just lead to arguments, and doesn't help much.
I prefer now praying for people, blessing them and asking God to touch them with His presence and power............honestly, I used to be in to alcohol and tried drugs.........nothing compares to the presence of God, and FULLNESS of joy He gives!

I don't mind if you don't agree, and for your sake I want you to. But following Jesus is awesome, and so so so exciting! And I pray God touches you with His presence, that you feel, and experience Him! The living God!!!!!!!

If you're feeling brave, ask Jesus to prove if He exists. It doesn't matter if you don't believe, that's not a problem to Him. And if He isn't real, nothing will happen, right? anyway, be blessed and blissed out in His presence man, peace!

 

[HappyLuke]

I wasn't asking about purpose necessarily, but what is the meaning in lives like yours? I wondered where your values lie. I wanted to hear your response and I got it. Yes I believe that people can have meaningful lives without a belief in a deity or afterlife. I find your beliefs rather intriguing. I have been taught much through your eyes, and why do you even seek evidence of God? You surely don't need one with the beliefs that you have. They seem to work for you afterall. It is merely to seek expansion and be confronted with fresh perspectives? Enlighten me.

Indeed I'm not dissatisfied with the naturalistic world, I don't feel a need for there to be a God, but it would be really awesome.
Like discovering aliens is an exciting idea from a scientific, curious, honest point of view; discovering an invisible being is controlling everything, listening to my thoughts and will grant me eternal existence after I die is just about the most amazing scientific discovery conceivable! It would be like finding aliens times a million.
It would be like we beam a certain frequency at the moon and it opens up like a giant transformer and fixes all the Earth's pollution and cures cancer and all disease and then takes us to meet other life around the universe, know what I mean?
It's the sort of thing that if it's true, you'd want to know about it

 

[Nuns_n_roses]

Indeed I'm not dissatisfied with the naturalistic world, I don't feel a need for there to be a God, but it would be really awesome.
Like discovering aliens is an exciting idea from a scientific, curious, honest point of view; discovering an invisible being is controlling everything, listening to my thoughts and will grant me eternal existence after I die is just about the most amazing scientific discovery conceivable! It would be like finding aliens times a million.
It would be like we beam a certain frequency at the moon and it opens up like a giant transformer and fixes all the Earth's pollution and cures cancer and all disease and then takes us to meet other life around the universe, know what I mean?
It's the sort of thing that if it's true, you'd want to know about it

I see. Well I will always be here if you want to ask me any questions. I wish you luck in your endeavors truly.

 

[HappyLuke]

Thanks for sharing Luke these kind of debates could go on forever........... I used to think apologetics was the best way to evangelise, debating about evolution etc etc. But that would just lead to arguments, and doesn't help much.
I prefer now praying for people, blessing them and asking God to touch them with His presence and power............honestly, I used to be in to alcohol and tried drugs.........nothing compares to the presence of God, and FULLNESS of joy He gives!

I don't mind if you don't agree, and for your sake I want you to. But following Jesus is awesome, and so so so exciting! And I pray God touches you with His presence, that you feel, and experience Him! The living God!!!!!!!

If you're feeling brave, ask Jesus to prove if He exists. It doesn't matter if you don't believe, that's not a problem to Him. And if He isn't real, nothing will happen, right? anyway, be blessed and blissed out in His presence man, peace!

Hihi! Thanks
I think apologetics actually are the pathway to convincing me, as long as I can finally find something really solid. But ya everyone is different
It's a bit taboo to mention in such a straight-edge place, but I got to take part in a uni experiment which legally gave me LSD; have you ever tried any of the mind-expanding, psychedelic class drugs? They can induce truly amazing spiritual experiences that compare to the presence of God Don't think you've falsified the idea that chemicals can induce these experiences because you tried pot, pills or alcohol and didn't trip. There are drugs that will give you absolutely convincing experiences of being one with the universe and communicating at a deep level with an ultimate reality. I think that's a strong suggestion that such things are just exotic brain states, they can also be induced brain damage, malfunctioning, electromagnetic fields, and to a lesser degree by religious ceremony, devotional states of mind and a ton of things like drumming or dancing for hours. We don't know ALL religious experiences have been generated by the brain and not a god, but we know the brain CAN do these things without a god actually existing

 

[HappyLuke]

I see. Well I will always be here if you want to ask me any questions. I wish you luck in your endeavors truly.

My last question was, do you think people need to believe in Jesus to avoid hell, and you said yes, so;
Do you think I deserve to be tortured forever? Is that morally right?

 

[Nuns_n_roses]

My last question was, do you think people need to believe in Jesus to avoid hell, and you said yes, so;
Do you think I deserve to be tortured forever? Is that morally right?

I believe that God's judgment is absolute, even if I feel differently. If it were up to me, no one would go to hell.