Israel or Palestine?

RachelBibleStudent · Apr 4, 2013

zone said:

i don't believe the rest of the passage bears out that interpretation...

first of all i don't believe the woman is mary...

the birth of jesus took place all the way up in verse five...the woman flees -after- jesus' ascension into heaven...

the woman escapes into the wilderness for three and a half years...by this time i believe the woman is the hebrew church in judea which is fleeing into the mountains as jesus warned when they saw jerusalem surrounded by armies...three and a half years is roughly the length of the siege of jerusalem if i remember correctly...

the water from the serpent's mouth...from satan's mouth...seems to me to be false teaching... the main false teaching in those days was the teaching of the judaizers...which was dependent in a big way on the temple in jerusalem...

then the earth swallows up the river from the dragon's mouth...the steady stream of judaizing is suddenly stopped...by what?

i assume by the destruction of jerusalem and the temple by titus... therefore the earth swallowing up the river from the dragon's mouth would be the fall of jerusalem and the destruction of the temple...

and like i had said...the earth would most naturally be interpreted as symbolizing earthly players rather than direct acts of God...which i would expect to be symbolized more by fire from heaven...

loveme1 · Apr 4, 2013

The video certainly does give an insight that one would not be taught in school

While the Jews played a part i want you to remember that the people doing the selling in Africa of those people are as bad as those doing the buying

No country is without its evil.

RachelBibleStudent · Apr 4, 2013

1still_waters said:

well sometimes God punishes by direct action...'fire from heaven' stuff... and sometimes he just punishes by removing his protection at a really bad time and allowing something bad to happen...like in judges...

the question is which of those happened in AD 70...

Abiding · Apr 4, 2013

rachel if you mean the Ashkenazis not bothering with
the torah yes thats my point and not the group i said
follow the torah.

What do you mean khazar theory. Ill admit ive not
studied much on the britishisraeli cult. So im not sure what
that comment means.

RachelBibleStudent · Apr 4, 2013

1still_waters said:

i think it could just as easily be something more like this..."I will no longer drive out before them any of the nations Joshua left when he died."

sometimes God punishes by -not- doing something...

Abiding · Apr 4, 2013

RachelBibleStudent said:

28 And Moses said, “By this you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these deeds; for this is not my doing. 29 If these men die the death of all men, or if they suffer the fate of all men, then the Lord has not sent me. 30 But if the Lord brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the Lord.”31 Then it came about as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground that was under them split open; 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah, with their possessions. 33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. 34 And all Israel who were around them fled at their outcry, for they said, “The earth may swallow us up!” 35 Fire also came forth from the Lord and consumed the two hundred and fifty men who were offering the incense (Numbers 16:28-35).

RachelBibleStudent · Apr 4, 2013

Abiding said:

ashkenazi is an ethnicity...there are ashkenazim in practically all of the jewish denominations i listed...and half of the antizionist haredi jews are ashkenazi...

what i am pointing out is that the vast majority of the antizionist jews that you keep mistakenly calling 'torah observant' -don't- actually bother much with the torah...their antizionism is in fact a direct result of their -rejection- of christ who is spoken of in the torah...

the vast majority of antizionist jews are anti zionist because they believe that they cannot return to the land until the messiah comes...and the messiah they are waiting for is obviously not jesus...

like i said...they are just as deceived and far from the kingdom of God as the zionist jews who reject christ...

by khazar theory i meant the theory that the khazars are the origin of the modern ashkenazi jews...the british israelist cult seized on this theory...because obviously in order for the british to be israel they would have to do away with the identity of the ashkenazim as israelites... basically the british israel cult are the only ones who were keeping the khazar theory alive until the antizionists got hold of it...in other words if you believe in the khazar theory you have a cult to thank for it...

i tend to be especially skeptical of theories that originated in a cult or were primarily propagated by a cult...in logic this may be a fallacy...but in spiritual study we know that bad trees don't produce good fruit...

crossnote · Apr 4, 2013

zone said:

hi brudda.
the truth is actually real clear and simple

it always was.

Acts 13
42As they went out, the people begged that these things might be told them the next Sabbath. 43And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, urged them to continue in the grace of God.

44The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. 46And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,

“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. 49And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region. 50But the Jews incited the devout women of high standing and the leading men of the city, stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. 51But they shook off the dust from their feet against them and went to Iconium. 52And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

Yes, and??

RachelBibleStudent · Apr 4, 2013

zone said:

evidently you haven't heard jews from one sect talk about jews from the other sects...

haredi jews for example...who again are the most antizionist of the sects by the way...they go so far as to call members of the other sects 'gentiles' for not being as strict in their talmudic observance...this was really obvious in the israeli election campaign earlier this year when haredi rabbis of the shas party went around calling the mostly conservative jewish beit hayehudi party the 'beit hagoyim' party

and then the reform jews...who vary between antizionist and zionist depending on their politics...consider haredi jews to be extremist weirdos and leeches on society...

so much for unbreakable tribal identity...

crossnote · Apr 4, 2013

I would just like to know one thing...Where's Waldo?

PeteWaldo · Apr 4, 2013

Abiding said:

What do the 20,000 deadly Islamic terrorist attacks around the world have to do with Zionism?
Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time
What do the 500 Christian men, women and children killed in their church in Nigeria have to do with Zionism? How about the thousand Christians killed on the Ivory Coast of Africa? What does that have to do with Zionism? It is every able bodied male Muslim's job to engage in imperialistic conquest. Period. The only "radicals" in Islam, are what their brethren call "hypocrites", who ignore that task, or pretend Islam is a religion of peace.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Sahih Bukhari B52 #177 [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "the Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."[/FONT]

"Summarized Sahih Al-Bukhari" - Maktba Dar-us-Salam's page 580

Chapter 2. The best among the people is that believer who strives his utmost in Allah's Cause with both his life and property.

footnotes:
[1] "Al-Jihad (the holy fighting) in Allah's Cause (with full force of number and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). By Jihad Islam is established, Allah's Word is made superior, [His Word being La ilaha ill-Allah (which means: none has the right to be worshipped by Allah] and His Religion (Islam) is propagated. By abandoning Jihad (may Allah protect us from that) Islam is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; there honour is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim, and he who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfill this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.

[2] Of course, nobody can offer Salat (prayer) and observe Saum (fast) incessantly, and since the Muslim fighter is rewarded as if he was doing such good impossible deeds, no possible deed equals Jihad in reward.

Didn't you read my last post? Islamic hatred of Jews has nothing to do with Zionism. Muhammad hated them first, because they wouldn't buy into his foolishness.

Ishaq:461 "After the siege exhausted and terrorized them, the Jews felt certain that the Apostle would not leave them until he had exterminated them. So they decided to talk to Ka'b Asad. He said, 'People of the Jews, you see what has befallen you. I shall propose three alternatives. Take whichever one you please.' He said, 'Swear allegiance to this man and accept him; for, by Allah, it has become clear to you that he is a prophet sent from Allah. It is he that you used to find mentioned in your scripture book. Then you will be secure in your lives, your property, your children, and your wives.'"

Ishaq:462/Tabari VIII:30 "The Jews said, 'We will never abandon the Torah or exchange it for the Qur'an.' Asad said, 'Since you reject this proposal of mine, then kill your children and your wives and go out to Muhammad and his Companions as men who brandish swords, leaving behind no impediments to worry you. If you die, you shall have left nothing behind; if you win you shall find other women and children.' The Jews replied, 'Why would we kill these poor ones? What would be the good of living after them?'"

Ishaq:463/Tabari VIII:34 "When Sa'd reached the Messenger of Allah and the Muslims, the Prophet said, 'Arise and go to your master and help him dismount.' Then Muhammad said, 'Pass judgment on them.' Sa'd replied, 'I pass judgment that their men shall be killed, their women and children made captives, and their property divided.' Allah's Apostle proclaimed, 'You have passed judgment on the Jews with the judgment of Allah and the judgment of His Messenger.'"

Here is where the slaughter of those innocent Jewish farm boys and their dads and grandpas is summarized in the Quran:

Qur'an 33:26 "Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things."

Muslims hate Jews because Muhammad hated Jews before them. He is their model. They are expected to do as he did and as he commanded them to do. Perhaps I haven't been making the font large enough.

Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Is there something about that that is difficult to understand?
This was written by Winston Churchill over a hundred years ago:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live…The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities…but the influence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa…and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.” - by Sir Winston Churchill - The River War, Vol. II, pp. 248-50, London; Longman, Green & Co., 1899[/FONT]

Let this Egyptian Imam (where they are burning churches and killing Christians) tell you how much Zionism has to do with Islamic hatred of Jews, and their understanding that it is they job to kill Jews:

[video=youtube;_X8dhrzQCHY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X8dhrzQCHY[/video]

You've been blinded to objective reality by the counter-reformation eschatology of a 17th century Roman Church Jesuit Luis Alcazar, and Roman Church styled punitive supersessionism.

PeteWaldo · Apr 4, 2013

crossnote said:

I generally go to bed at 9:00 EDT and get up between 3:30 and 5:30.

loveme1 · Apr 4, 2013

Something worrying when a person is using the koran and not the Holy Bible to prove something!

PeteWaldo · Apr 4, 2013

Abiding said:

I think what you are really saying is that more non-Israeli Jews, who weren't born there, and don't have to live there, have been duped into believing it is a matter of Jews VS so-called "Palestinians", which is the whole point of the OP. The fact of the matter is the conflict is between Israeli Muslims advancing an Islamic slave state VS the freedom, liberty and right to self-determination of Israeli Jews, Israeli Christians and Israeli non-Muslim Arab's democracy.

You choose the side of the Muslims. Yet you don't even seem concerned that you may be held accountable, for this:

"Christians can only continue living safely in the Gaza Strip if they accept Islamic law, including a ban on alcohol and on women roaming publicly without proper head coverings, an Islamist militant leader in Gaza told WND in an exclusive interview."
"This missionary activity is endangering the entire Christian community in Gaza,"
"His comments come after gunmen on Sunday attacked Gaza's Latin Church and adjacent Rosary Sisters School, reportedly destroying crosses, bibles, pictures of Jesus and furniture and equipment. The attackers also stole a number of computers."
Christians warned: Accept Islamic law

"'Arab Spring' becoming Nightmare For Christians":
"Christians can In the case of Ayyad, who managed the only Christian bookstore in Gaza, his body was discovered riddled with gunshot and stab wounds."
"The witnesses said they saw three armed men, two of whom were wearing masks, beat Ayyad repeatedly with clubs and the butts of their guns while they accused him of attempting to spread Christianity in Gaza. The witnesses said that after sustaining the beating, Ayyad was shot by all three men."
‘Arab Spring’ becoming nightmare for Christians

These are YOUR peeps. Please click on this youtube search - Islam indoctrination of children - to get a little more familiar with the side you have chosen.

[video=youtube;ZL0C2QvqIlo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL0C2QvqIlo[/video]

PeteWaldo · Apr 4, 2013

loveme1 said:

As a Christian I use both, to understand what Muslims have been indoctrinated to believe, in order to help me help those sorely deluded followers of Muhammad overcome his cult. To learn the keys that most make them want to run and hide from truth of the Gospel. Most Christians are in abject ignorance to the fact that Muhammad proclaimed the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel. Many, like the Pope and Vatican Council even encourage Muslims, to continue on the path that Satan laid out for them. Pretending that Islam has something to do with the God of the Jews and Christians except for being manifest as the EXACT OPPOSITE.
Christians that write as you do are simply expressing a desire to remain in abject ignorance, to the very enemy, that is commanded to kill or subjugate you and your heirs, just wishing it would all go away. Railing against Jews, while Muhammad's followers are commanded to DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ - the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel - DENYING the Son of God, and REJECTING His shed blood, as articles of faith in Muhammad alone.

Indeed for a Muslim to confess that Jesus is the Son of God, or even pray in Jesus' name, constitutes the ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN in Islam. As compared to child rape or cold-blooded mass murder, for example, which are forgivable.
UNFORGIVABLE SIN OF SHIRK

loveme1 · Apr 4, 2013

The pope encourages them? well why on earth would they do that? do they not claim to be Christians?

loveme1 · Apr 4, 2013

I do not for one minute believe islam is not evil and against the Truth but they are not alone in the matter...

loveme1 · Apr 4, 2013

The counter reformation also gives way for people who call themselves Christians to participate in an Anti-Christ crusade without even knowing it...

PeteWaldo · Apr 4, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

So the Israeli Jews, Christians and non-Muslim Arabs, that simply want to be left alone to continue to be productive global citizens through the freedom, liberty and rights to self-determination afforded to them by the democracy of the Israeli Jewish State are on the side of Satan.

Which would leave those who are commanded by the false prophet Muhammad to turn Israel - along with the rest of the world - into just another sharia law ruled, multiple wife and concubine beating, little girl circumcising (FGM or female genital mutilation), slave making and trading, Christian and Jew persecuting and killing, church and synagogue burning, imperialistic conquering, Islamic slave state, being of God

This gentleman certainly seems to be putting voice to such a view:

[video=youtube;UQERHieZHcg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQERHieZHcg[/video]

loveme1 · Apr 4, 2013

Pete, why is that mosque still standing in Jerusalem?

Israel or Palestine?

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