Prayer of Renunciation

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1still_waters

Guest
Partial preterists can't afford to recognize the everlasting covenant promises God made to the seed of Abraham, any more than they can afford to try to understand the physical matter of fact reality of the restoration of Jews to their land, as being of the Lord. Yet consider the fruit of the tree, of all those that refuse to believe, that the restoration of Jews to their/our land is of the Lord. In spite of Christians having anticipated it through bible prophecy, centuries before that restoration began to take place.

Matthew Henry: "If God will build Jerusalem for the people and their comfort, they must inhabit it for him and his glory. The promises and privileges with which God's people are blessed, should engage us to join them, whatever it costs us."

Thomas Brightman (1562-1607): "The restoring of the Jewes and their callinge to the faith of Christ after the utter overthrow of their three enemies is set forth in livelie colours." "Shall they return to Jerusalem again?" "There is nothing more certain: the prophets do everywhere confirm it and beat upon it."

In 1641, the British Puritan leader, Oliver Cromwell stated, "And it may be, as some think, God will bring the Jews home to their station, 'from all the isles of the sea,' and answer their expectations 'as from the depths of the sea.'

Isaac Newton: “Hence I observe these things, first that the restauration of the Jewish nation so much spoken of by the old Prophets respects not the few Jews who were converted in the Apostles days, but the dispersed nation of the unbelieving Jews to be converted in the end when the fullness of the Gentiles shall enter, that is when the Gospel (upon the fall of Babylon) shall begin to be preached to all nations. Secondly that the prophecies of Isaiah described above by being here cited by the Apostle is limited to respect the time of the future conversion and restitution of the Jewish Nation, and thirdly that the humour which has long reigned among the Christians of boasting our selves against the Jews, and insulting over them for their not believing, is reprehended by the Apostle for high–mindedness and self-conceipt, and much more is our using them despightfully, Pharisaicall and impious

Worse than that they are given over to Roman Church styled punitive supersessionism, to which Newton alluded, that Paul warned of. They act as though nobody before brother Ellis recognized that some Jews may remain sovereignly blinded to the Gospel this day in spite of Romans 11.

Matthew Henry: "Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others, the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles ... "

Jamieson Faucett and Brown "... I think the twofold Church, Jewish and Gentile, may be meant by the two candlesticks represented by the two witnesses ... "
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/60682-return-jews-israel.html
Romans 2
[SUP]28[/SUP]For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;[SUP]29 [/SUP]but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.


Romans 9
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, [SUP]7 [/SUP]nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham;


Romans 4
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. [SUP]14[/SUP]For if those who are of the law areheirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, [SUP]15 [/SUP]because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.


Galatians 3
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [SUP]28 [/SUP]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. [SUP]29 [/SUP]And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
D

danschance

Guest
Well, I am not much of a KJV only fan, but I certainly agree and do declare:

Jesus Christ is come in the flesh!
 
T

Therapon

Guest
Well, well, you did get my intent. <smile> Denying reality because Scripture can be interpreted to nulify it. In my humble opinion, that is legalism in its finest form and one of the major problems in the church tody.

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life", 2Cor 3:6
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
Well, well, you did get my intent. <smile> Denying reality because Scripture can be interpreted to nulify it. In my humble opinion, that is legalism in its finest form and one of the major problems in the church tody.

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life", 2Cor 3:6
Say huh?

If I reject a teaching or experience because it goes against the Bible, then it's legalism?

So anyone who rejects what Joseph Smith experienced is a legalist?

Seriously?

I mean really?

Legalism means trusting in law and works instead of Jesus and what he did.

Legalism isn't when you look at an experience, and then measure it against what the Bible shows.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
Denying reality because Scripture can be interpreted to nulify it. In my humble opinion, that is legalism in its finest form and one of the major problems in the church tody.
Denying reality because Scripture can be interpreted to nulify it. In my humble opinion, that is legalism in its finest form and one of the major problems in the church tody.
Say huh?
If the Bible says what you're experiencing isn't good, then you shouldn't do it.
That's NOT legalism.
You're basically suggesting putting personal experience over BIBLE.

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life", 2Cor 3:6
This is a tricky lil gambit folks try to use to lift personal experience over the Bible.
They classify the Bible as "the letter", and the experiences as the life giving Spirit.

Paul isn't saying that following the Bible kills.
He's saying trusting in the letter of the law to save you kills.
But trusting in Jesus through the power of the Spirit gives life.

The Bible is NOT the letter.
In fact it's VERY spiritual.

Ephes 6 17 and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;
 
T

Therapon

Guest
Well, I am not much of a KJV only fan, but I certainly agree and do declare:

Jesus Christ is come in the flesh!
LOL, Me too, “Jesus Christ IS come in the flesh.” In this case, the KJV is the version to quote because the KJV is the only version that translates that verse correctly. Later versions translate 1John 4:1-3 "Jesus Christ HAS come in the flesh." A critical error, because demons will admit Jesus has come in the flesh as a historic figure, but they will not admit “Jesus Christ IS come in the flesh,” thus declaring to His eternal deity!

Demons are sneaky and I ran into this problem several times while working with multiples. In one system false Jesuses would show up regularly, suggesting alters do something wrong. As instructed, the alters would ask the false Jesus to declare, “Jesus Christ IS come in the flesh.” The false Jesus would reply with “Jesus Christ HAS come in the flesh,” so they would go do what it said. It was some time before the Christian alters themselves noticed the difference and the problem was corrected.


I lost one Australian ex-Satanist multi in exactly that same way. She would follow after the false Jesuses who came into her system, not making them declare properly, and soon I saw her no more. I sure miss that little drug-addicted lady, she tried really hard to break away from the cult and follow the Lord. I still pray for "K" when the Lord brings her to mind.


 
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T

Therapon

Guest
Say huh?

If I reject a teaching or experience because it goes against the Bible, then it's legalism?

So anyone who rejects what Joseph Smith experienced is a legalist?

Seriously?

I mean really?

Legalism means trusting in law and works instead of Jesus and what he did.

Legalism isn't when you look at an experience, and then measure it against what the Bible shows.
Brother, you are trying to equate apples with oranges. I do or say nothing against the Bible.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
Brother, you are trying to equate apples with oranges. I do or say nothing against the Bible.
You said...

Denying reality because Scripture can be interpreted to nulify it. In my humble opinion, that is legalism in its finest form and one of the major problems in the church tody.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/61157-prayer-renunciation-12.html#post984240

You're saying that all the stuff you perceive as spiritual reality can't be denied even if the Bible interpreted such says it's not right.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
You said...


http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/61157-prayer-renunciation-12.html#post984240

You're saying that all the stuff you perceive as spiritual reality can't be denied even if the Bible interpreted such says it's not right.
I do or say nothing against what the Bible states. I have worked with demonized Christians, you say it can't be and interpret Scripture to support your position. You say Jews can't have the "circumcision of the heart" during the Christian era and interpret Scripture to support your position.

Like I've previously stated, I do not question your right to hold the positions you do, even though I know from boots on the ground experiences with Chriatians and Jews that those positions are counter-productiveton to helping those who need help.

That is why I have asked you to stop trying to debate with me. I will continue to help people as the Lord leads and you no doubt will do the same.
 
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G

GRA

Guest
I think it is difficult at times for us christians to admit we do not know everything about the Scriptures.
It is part of our human nature that makes us want to always feel like we are "in the know"...

When we studied for many years and lived comfortably - emotionally, raised our kids on certain interpretations of the Bible.
Repetition tends to "solidify and harden" our views. Then, we hold on to them very comfortably with the belief that we "have it right"...

Sometimes, people become more "attached" to the 'comfort' than to the 'belief'.

Then later to be challanged by different christian brothers and sisters.
We feel that it is not necessary to "re-visit" things which we are certain we understand 'perfectly'. It is "embarrassing" to us to think we could have believed [anything] in error for so long. And, we are inclined to not want to change if it is going to take any significant effort to reconsider our stance.

These things "work against us" - and, may be overcome only if we decide that it is far more important to "truly have it right" than to "appear to have it right" - and - we are willing to put forth the necessary effort (study, etc.) to achieve the proper result.

It helps if we seriously consider the dire consequences on others we lead astray and on us when we one day stand in judgment for it.

How vitally important is it that we "make absolutely sure" that we "truly have it right"...? Is it worth ever-continual re-evaluation of our views?

Is it wise to grow comfortably content with "what we know" - enough to never question ourselves - "just in case" we are wrong?

It makes us have to step out in faith again when we thought we already had something settled.
To "step out in faith", as mentioned here, requires a continual willingness to be ever-so-ready to be teachable (by the Holy Spirit).

If you have an "I've got a lock on this." kind of attitude toward the scriptures, you are not teachable.

We each will have to go through this imo., it's so well worth the trying of our faith because we get stronger in His love for us and learn to love others better than we did before.
We must learn to have patience with others when we are convinced that they do not understand 'some particular truth'.

We must learn to appreciate any 'illustration' of truth on its own merit without regard to "where it came from" (who said it).

When discussing with others about "the truth in the scriptures" - we need to remember:

"The idea is not to prove them wrong - but rather, it is to help them see the truth..."

God loves each one of us where we are in our relationship with Him. I remember the story in the Bible about the prodical son and his older brother. Both of them needed to learn lessons - and their father loved them both even as they were learning.
The older brother grew too comfortable in his assumption that he fully knew and understood all the ways of his father. Only through being confronted with the experience of his brother did he realize that he did not "have it all figured out"...

Yet rather than recognize the treasure of an elder brother steeped in a lifetime of scripture in the genuine ecclesia, brother Skolfield has been met with scorn, false accusation, false characterization, and false witness by doctrinally blinded babes in Christ that exhibit milk still dribbling down their chins - if that.
The more 'elder' of us are prone - if we are not careful - to become "set in our ways" - and, no longer consider where we may possibly be wrong - because, "we have a lock on it"... :rolleyes:

The younger generations maintain error out of IGNORANCE. The older generations maintain error out of PRIDE.

I have read many of Therapon's posts - as well as one of his 'PDF' books from his website. I can agree with a lot of what he has said that others who have posted in his threads cannot. There are other things he has stated with which I cannot agree at all. I do not discount everything he says because of the stuff I cannot agree with. Why? Because I try my best to "compare truth to truth" - what is said is more important than who said it.

"I believe that it is true or I believe that it is not - without regard to who said it."

It is his attitude that I don't like. This is the way he comes across to me:

Therapon's Attitude ( <<< click )

If he truly wanted to use his "vast treasure of scriptural knowledge" to help a brother "sharpen iron" -- would he not have tried to answer the questions in my threads - making use of [only] relevant scripture and/or other information to DIRECTLY address the particular issue that my question pertained to? -- INSTEAD of [effectively] telling me that my question was not worth his time and "walking all over" my ['serious-topic'] thread with "anything and everything" except discussion of my topic?

Therapon:

The stuff in your material that I most disagree with is the stuff that seems to be "invented" just to fill the gaps between the more 'solid' stuff that actually makes some sense.

All:

This is something that humans do "all too naturally" - BECAUSE we do not like to leave anything "unexplained"- because, 'gaps' create [a false] "uncertainty" in our minds.

However, when it comes to understanding and interpreting scripture - this is THE WORST thing we can possibly do. And, it ALONE has caused more doctrinal error than probably anything known to man.

Why?

Because, people tend to fill the "unknown" spaces with "anything that makes some sense" (true or not) -- and, it "breaks" the doctrine.

It is FAR better to LEAVE the "unexplained" ALONE. We MUST allow it - in our minds - to remain an EMPTY space -- to be filled LATER when we actually have something WORTHY to fill it with.

In order to properly interpret scripture -- you MUST be able to do this -- or you WILL most certainly fall into error...

( Because, Satan is always ready to hand you something 'false' to "fill the gaps" with... )
 
G

GRA

Guest
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. :)
I confess:

"Jesus Christ is come in the flesh."

"Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God."

"Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son - the only begotten of the Father."

:)
 
T

Therapon

Guest
I confess:

"Jesus Christ is come in the flesh."

"Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God."

"Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son - the only begotten of the Father."

:)
Yess indeed, and I also thank you for the criticism. Only the Pope in infallible so I sometimes don't say things the right way.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
[QUOTE=GRA;984374] If you have an "I've got a lock on this." kind of attitude toward the scriptures, you are not teachable.[/QUOTE]

I've been in Scripture since the 30s, full time for the last 35 years, but I didn't even begin to know a little about our God until I was your age. Even now I know precious little more.

Just a sinner saved by grace who considers himself fortunate to even be seated at the lowest and most menial seat at Jesus' banquet table. All are seated much higher. I said that to a pastor friend who replied, "I'll fight you for it," LOL. I gave him a hug because I knew he saw himself as just a useless piece of clay like me.

Have never claimed to know much of anything, but what I do know through the Word and by the Holy Spirit, I do know. If my posts have offended you in some way, I apologize. Please show me where any are in biblical error and I will correct them publically. As to my having a wrong attitude, thank you for noticing it and I'll really work on it.
 
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Markum1972

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2013
1,165
32
48
If I misunderstood the topic or the question, excuse me for not having read the entire thread. It is quite long.
I was mostly addressing the question about Abraham's daughter.
I do understand who Israel is today though through the reconciliation that Jesus paid for and I am in agreement on these things.
I am also in agreement that we are not saved by genetics as you and Therapon have both stated.
I hope that this helps clarify.
It is important to note that we are all given different gifts. This includes the word of wisdom and word of understanding (among other things). I have seen a great deal of discord among the brethren. I have heard many say that we need to test the spirits; but have only seen a very select few test the spirits according to what is written in the scriptures. It seems instead that many test the spirits according to how they think it should be done, or how they have been taught by others. This ought not be so.
It is the will of God that we would come together in one accord within His love and to refrain from debating, strivings, and the like.
If one has been given a gift to understand certain things that we may not; are we to then say that we have no need of that member of the body? God forbid.
Who told us to fear the many deceptions, seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons? It is not by fear that these things can be revealed; but only by a spirit of power, love, and soundness of mind which is given through faith. That spirit that God has given as a gift through His son, Jesus Christ; the Holy Spirit which is our comforter and teaches us all things and reminds us of everything that God has said to us. Having one teacher that we would all be brought into one accord within the grace of God.
Therefore, let us humble ourselves one to another as we humble ourselves to God. Let us minister grace and peace to one another for the edification of the body of Christ. This is the holy and acceptable will of God.
I, a servant of our Lord, Jesus Christ, suffer the same trials as all of the brethren. I count it all joy that through these trials we can be perfected and completed.
Grace and peace be to all of you through our Lord, Jesus Christ. So be it.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
If I misunderstood the topic or the question, excuse me for not having read the entire thread. It is quite long.
I was mostly addressing the question about Abraham's daughter.
I do understand who Israel is today though through the reconciliation that Jesus paid for and I am in agreement on these things.
I am also in agreement that we are not saved by genetics as you and Therapon have both stated.
I hope that this helps clarify.
It is important to note that we are all given different gifts. This includes the word of wisdom and word of understanding (among other things). I have seen a great deal of discord among the brethren. I have heard many say that we need to test the spirits; but have only seen a very select few test the spirits according to what is written in the scriptures. It seems instead that many test the spirits according to how they think it should be done, or how they have been taught by others. This ought not be so.
It is the will of God that we would come together in one accord within His love and to refrain from debating, strivings, and the like.
If one has been given a gift to understand certain things that we may not; are we to then say that we have no need of that member of the body? God forbid.
Who told us to fear the many deceptions, seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons? It is not by fear that these things can be revealed; but only by a spirit of power, love, and soundness of mind which is given through faith. That spirit that God has given as a gift through His son, Jesus Christ; the Holy Spirit which is our comforter and teaches us all things and reminds us of everything that God has said to us. Having one teacher that we would all be brought into one accord within the grace of God.
Therefore, let us humble ourselves one to another as we humble ourselves to God. Let us minister grace and peace to one another for the edification of the body of Christ. This is the holy and acceptable will of God.
I, a servant of our Lord, Jesus Christ, suffer the same trials as all of the brethren. I count it all joy that through these trials we can be perfected and completed.
Grace and peace be to all of you through our Lord, Jesus Christ. So be it.
Yeah man, praise the Lord.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
People like to say "So and So" has a great testimony as they went to the depths of sin and by God's grace found faith. I on the other hand think a great testimony is more like : "I was always with the Lord. I have served Him faithfully my whole life." You sir, are the latter case. You have a great testimony. Thank you for your many years of faithfully serving Jesus!
Not so, brother. I wish it was true, but it isn't. After I left Columbia Bible College, I went into the business world until my late 40s. Ended up owning my own successful advertising business, but I had become just like one of the unsaved, a drunken adulterer. I knew Scripture all along and read it, but sin had deceived me and I was miserable.

I remember crying out to the Lord, “Father, You know my wicked heart; I don't know how You’re going to fix it, but I trust that You will." I was a prime example of someone who knew truth, but "held the truth in unrighteousness."

One evening, a Christian friend came aboard my yacht, yanked my bottle out of my hand, threw it over the side and said, "Ellis, the Lord wants you to teach His Word and you can't do it as a drunk.”

I went down in my stateroom, got on my knees and told the Lord I would accept that word from Him and obey Him. I had been drunk for 90 days and should have gone to the hospital, but the next morning I was rock cold sober, no DTs, no nothing, except I was no longer a drunken adulterer. That happened so long ago that it feels like a different person and in a spiritual way, it was.

I tell it again in case some miserable brother reading this has gone so far down that he thinks the Lord doesn't care anymore or wont help him. It isn't so, brother, cry out to the Lord because Jesus said, "him that cometh unto Me I will in no wise cast out."
 
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D

danschance

Guest


LOL, Me too, “Jesus Christ IS come in the flesh.” In this case, the KJV is the version to quote because the KJV is the only version that translates that verse correctly. Later versions translate 1John 4:1-3 "Jesus Christ HAS come in the flesh." A critical error, because demons will admit Jesus has come in the flesh as a historic figure, but they will not admit “Jesus Christ IS come in the flesh,” thus declaring to His eternal deity!

Demons are sneaky and I ran into this problem several times while working with multiples. In one system false Jesuses would show up regularly, suggesting alters do something wrong. As instructed, the alters would ask the false Jesus to declare, “Jesus Christ IS come in the flesh.” The false Jesus would reply with “Jesus Christ HAS come in the flesh,” so they would go do what it said. It was some time before the Christian alters themselves noticed the difference and the problem was corrected.


I lost one Australian ex-Satanist multi in exactly that same way. She would follow after the false Jesuses who came into her system, not making them declare properly, and soon I saw her no more. I sure miss that little drug-addicted lady, she tried really hard to break away from the cult and follow the Lord. I still pray for "K" when the Lord brings her to mind.



Very interesting point. I had wondered about the correct way to state this, thank you for clearing it up. I used a way to to detect false Jesus' that is a bit different. I would say "I remove all masks and costumes from the Jesus in front of (an alter) and then asked what they looked like. This also worked good for demons pretending to be the original "victimzier" (if you know what I mean).

I am very glad you discussed the Is come vs. has come. Thank you.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Have you not read the scriptures concerning this? The promise that God made to Abraham concerning his "seed"?
Galatians 3:16
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.