The end time prophesy and debate
- Thread starter Blain
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Zone, to prove that,one would have to through scripture out. I am a "T" totaler and believe from cover to cover. I don't think it is possible for you or anyone, save The Holy Spirit, to show me other wise. To me Post Trib makes absolutely no sense at all. God has always provided an escape from His wrath for those that trust in Him. He is God and there is no other and He changes not.
Explain to me where the Christians come from in the Millennium Reign if there all raptured at the second coming of Christ. Who will He Reign over and it is given that we will reign with Him. Know ye not that we shall judge angels.
The bible is very clear, that there will be people saved during the tribulation. The rapture being a great witness to many. Most will be killed. but, many will live through it and remain in this body for a thousand years. Children will be born that have never been tempted by Satan. God is a true and just God and always protects His righteousness. These people that will be born during this reign of Christ experience no temptation as we have and that is unjust. That's why Satan will be released at the end for a season and remarkable many will fall and go against christ. Human nature wants so badly to worship itself that even after seeing Christ they will fall to Satan's pride.
Explain to me where the Christians come from in the Millennium Reign if there all raptured at the second coming of Christ. Who will He Reign over and it is given that we will reign with Him. Know ye not that we shall judge angels.
The bible is very clear, that there will be people saved during the tribulation. The rapture being a great witness to many. Most will be killed. but, many will live through it and remain in this body for a thousand years. Children will be born that have never been tempted by Satan. God is a true and just God and always protects His righteousness. These people that will be born during this reign of Christ experience no temptation as we have and that is unjust. That's why Satan will be released at the end for a season and remarkable many will fall and go against christ. Human nature wants so badly to worship itself that even after seeing Christ they will fall to Satan's pride.
G
2011
1Thess4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with
the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Cor15:5 1Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ”
)()()()()()()
Ohzone, where is Jesus' coming mentioned in Matt. 13
???
There is a coming BEFORE this coming, ohzone, when the Lord descends from Heaven.
1Thess4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with
the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Cor15:5 1Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ”
)()()()()()()
Ohzone, where is Jesus' coming mentioned in Matt. 13
???
There is a coming BEFORE this coming, ohzone, when the Lord descends from Heaven.
G
The term "church age" - as it seems to be used today by most - is incorrectly defined (I believe).
Those who understand the true nature of the Church would define the "church age" as beginning during the ministry of Christ and continuing without ceasing until [ at least ] the time hell is cast into the lake of fire ( Revelation 20:14 ).
"Yes - you heard me correctly - the Church began during the ministry of Christ (started by Christ Himself during his ministry) - not on the day of Pentecost as most believe."
The Church - already in existance - was "endued with power" ( Luke 24:49 ) on the day of Pentecost.
The Church was started by Christ and afterward "endued with power" by the Holy Spirit. ("Please do not confuse these two separate ideas.")
There are indications in the Gospel accounts that the Church began during the ministry of Chirst. Read carefully.
I personally believe that the Church began on the day Christ was baptized. I believe that Christ - being the head of the Church - and, "setting the pattern" for it - started "building His Church" that day, after He was baptized. I believe that His baptism was the "cornerstone" of the foundation for the building of His Church. I believe that His baptism [in effect and significance] "annointed" Him as the 'Head of the Church' and also "marked the beginning" of the Church.
"Yes - you heard me correctly - the Church does not cease to exist before or when Christ returns."
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. ~ Matthew 16:18
If the existance of hell (or, the "functional operation" of it; i.e., as long as souls were "passing into it") were to extend beyond the existance of the Church, then it would - by definition - "prevail against it" --- think about it...
It is very unfortunate that 'Dispensationalism' has "gotten it wrong" (the time-frame)...
I believe that there is only one "dispensation" between the 'Ascension of Christ' the 'Second Coming of Christ' - "from the time He left, until the time He returns" - no further "splits" exist in this time-frame.
What comes after it is the creation of the New Heaven and New Earth.
As you probably already know - the term "dispensation of grace" is just another descriptive phrase for the same time-frame as "church age" (the incorrect definition)...
Those who understand the true nature of the Church would define the "church age" as beginning during the ministry of Christ and continuing without ceasing until [ at least ] the time hell is cast into the lake of fire ( Revelation 20:14 ).
"Yes - you heard me correctly - the Church began during the ministry of Christ (started by Christ Himself during his ministry) - not on the day of Pentecost as most believe."
The Church - already in existance - was "endued with power" ( Luke 24:49 ) on the day of Pentecost.
The Church was started by Christ and afterward "endued with power" by the Holy Spirit. ("Please do not confuse these two separate ideas.")
There are indications in the Gospel accounts that the Church began during the ministry of Chirst. Read carefully.
I personally believe that the Church began on the day Christ was baptized. I believe that Christ - being the head of the Church - and, "setting the pattern" for it - started "building His Church" that day, after He was baptized. I believe that His baptism was the "cornerstone" of the foundation for the building of His Church. I believe that His baptism [in effect and significance] "annointed" Him as the 'Head of the Church' and also "marked the beginning" of the Church.
"Yes - you heard me correctly - the Church does not cease to exist before or when Christ returns."
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. ~ Matthew 16:18
If the existance of hell (or, the "functional operation" of it; i.e., as long as souls were "passing into it") were to extend beyond the existance of the Church, then it would - by definition - "prevail against it" --- think about it...
It is very unfortunate that 'Dispensationalism' has "gotten it wrong" (the time-frame)...
I believe that there is only one "dispensation" between the 'Ascension of Christ' the 'Second Coming of Christ' - "from the time He left, until the time He returns" - no further "splits" exist in this time-frame.
What comes after it is the creation of the New Heaven and New Earth.
As you probably already know - the term "dispensation of grace" is just another descriptive phrase for the same time-frame as "church age" (the incorrect definition)...
G
[SUP]8[/SUP] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [SUP]9[/SUP] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [SUP]10[/SUP] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [SUP]11[/SUP] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [SUP]12[/SUP] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12
As far as I am concerned, your "insinuation" of "strong delusion" is a reference to this scripture - and, therefore, places crossnote in the group of wicked people who will suffer the wrath of God because they refused to believe the truth and in fact, "had pleasure in unrighteousness" - as is stated above.
All of the 'them' / 'they' / 'who' words in this color are speaking of the same group of people.
By saying this, you are insinuating -- not only is crossnote "LOST" - but "UTTERLY WICKED", also.
Don't you think that is "a bit overboard" - just because you see him as a "pre-tribulation believer"...???
Your idea of the manner in which [what this verse is saying] is to be exercised or carried out - is "a bit skewed"...
You should really start actually thinking about what you are saying to people...
Did the contents of this post ( <<< Click ) not make any sense to you at all?
As far as I am concerned, your "insinuation" of "strong delusion" is a reference to this scripture - and, therefore, places crossnote in the group of wicked people who will suffer the wrath of God because they refused to believe the truth and in fact, "had pleasure in unrighteousness" - as is stated above.
All of the 'them' / 'they' / 'who' words in this color are speaking of the same group of people.
By saying this, you are insinuating -- not only is crossnote "LOST" - but "UTTERLY WICKED", also.
Don't you think that is "a bit overboard" - just because you see him as a "pre-tribulation believer"...???
Your idea of the manner in which [what this verse is saying] is to be exercised or carried out - is "a bit skewed"...
You should really start actually thinking about what you are saying to people...
Did the contents of this post ( <<< Click ) not make any sense to you at all?
W
the 144K (Rev 7,14) represent Jews (Israelites) by blood, who also remained spiritually true, and believed in Jesus as Christ, i.e. Jewish Christians. The Ebionites were a Jewish Christian sect, into the 4th century AD.
Contrastingly, Jews (Israelites) by blood, who did not believe in Jesus as Christ, are repudiated in Revelation (Rev 2-3, John 8).
Jesus, the Apostles, and the Disciples, were all amongst those 144K "true Israelites by blood & Holy Spirit".
Contrastingly, Jews (Israelites) by blood, who did not believe in Jesus as Christ, are repudiated in Revelation (Rev 2-3, John 8).
Jesus, the Apostles, and the Disciples, were all amongst those 144K "true Israelites by blood & Holy Spirit".
W
2 Thess 2 = Rev 20:7-9 = Satan recruits global "Gog & Magog" cabal vs. "beloved city" of Church as "spiritual heavenly New Jerusalem Temple City" (Rev 21-22)
[SUP]8[/SUP] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [SUP]9[/SUP] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [SUP]10[/SUP] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [SUP]11[/SUP] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: [SUP]12[/SUP] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12
As far as I am concerned, your "insinuation" of "strong delusion" is a reference to this scripture - and, therefore, places crossnote in the group of wicked people who will suffer the wrath of God because they refused to believe the truth and in fact, "had pleasure in unrighteousness" - as is stated above.
All of the 'them' / 'they' / 'who' words in this color are speaking of the same group of people.
By saying this, you are insinuating -- not only is crossnote "LOST" - but "UTTERLY WICKED", also.
Don't you think that is "a bit overboard" - just because you see him as a "pre-tribulation believer"...???
Your idea of the manner in which [what this verse is saying] is to be exercised or carried out - is "a bit skewed"...
You should really start actually thinking about what you are saying to people...
Did the contents of this post ( <<< Click ) not make any sense to you at all?
As far as I am concerned, your "insinuation" of "strong delusion" is a reference to this scripture - and, therefore, places crossnote in the group of wicked people who will suffer the wrath of God because they refused to believe the truth and in fact, "had pleasure in unrighteousness" - as is stated above.
All of the 'them' / 'they' / 'who' words in this color are speaking of the same group of people.
By saying this, you are insinuating -- not only is crossnote "LOST" - but "UTTERLY WICKED", also.
Don't you think that is "a bit overboard" - just because you see him as a "pre-tribulation believer"...???
Your idea of the manner in which [what this verse is saying] is to be exercised or carried out - is "a bit skewed"...
You should really start actually thinking about what you are saying to people...
Did the contents of this post ( <<< Click ) not make any sense to you at all?
W
The age of the Christian Church began with Jesus c.30 AD; and has continued through today.
Revelation predicted that the Church would evolve, through four stages of development:
Please peruse Dr. Kenneth Gentry's Revelation Made Easy. As the Prophesies of the Prophet Daniel were fulfilled in the 6th - 1st centuries BC (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Roman Republic / Empire; Julius Caesar = "man of intrigues", "three horns toppled" = Triumvirates); so the Prophesies of the Apostle John have been fulfilled, from the 1st - 21st centuries AD.
Revelation predicted that the Church would evolve, through four stages of development:
- Tribulation (Rev 1-19) = Nero, Domitian, Decius, Diocletian = 1st - 4th centuries AD
- Millennium (Rev 20:1-6) = Constantine to conquest of Constantinople = to 15th century AD
- Apostasy (Rev 20:7-9) = Renaissance, secular humanism, Communism, etc. = to today
- Judgement (Rev 20:9+) = Second Coming w/ Rapture (for faithful) = future
Please peruse Dr. Kenneth Gentry's Revelation Made Easy. As the Prophesies of the Prophet Daniel were fulfilled in the 6th - 1st centuries BC (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Roman Republic / Empire; Julius Caesar = "man of intrigues", "three horns toppled" = Triumvirates); so the Prophesies of the Apostle John have been fulfilled, from the 1st - 21st centuries AD.
The term "church age" - as it seems to be used today by most - is incorrectly defined (I believe).
Those who understand the true nature of the Church would define the "church age" as beginning during the ministry of Christ and continuing without ceasing until [ at least ] the time hell is cast into the lake of fire ( Revelation 20:14 ).
"Yes - you heard me correctly - the Church began during the ministry of Christ (started by Christ Himself during his ministry) - not on the day of Pentecost as most believe."
The Church - already in existance - was "endued with power" ( Luke 24:49 ) on the day of Pentecost.
The Church was started by Christ and afterward "endued with power" by the Holy Spirit. ("Please do not confuse these two separate ideas.")
There are indications in the Gospel accounts that the Church began during the ministry of Chirst. Read carefully.
I personally believe that the Church began on the day Christ was baptized. I believe that Christ - being the head of the Church - and, "setting the pattern" for it - started "building His Church" that day, after He was baptized. I believe that His baptism was the "cornerstone" of the foundation for the building of His Church. I believe that His baptism [in effect and significance] "annointed" Him as the 'Head of the Church' and also "marked the beginning" of the Church.
"Yes - you heard me correctly - the Church does not cease to exist before or when Christ returns."
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. ~ Matthew 16:18
If the existance of hell (or, the "functional operation" of it; i.e., as long as souls were "passing into it") were to extend beyond the existance of the Church, then it would - by definition - "prevail against it" --- think about it...
It is very unfortunate that 'Dispensationalism' has "gotten it wrong" (the time-frame)...
I believe that there is only one "dispensation" between the 'Ascension of Christ' the 'Second Coming of Christ' - "from the time He left, until the time He returns" - no further "splits" exist in this time-frame.
What comes after it is the creation of the New Heaven and New Earth.
As you probably already know - the term "dispensation of grace" is just another descriptive phrase for the same time-frame as "church age" (the incorrect definition)...
Those who understand the true nature of the Church would define the "church age" as beginning during the ministry of Christ and continuing without ceasing until [ at least ] the time hell is cast into the lake of fire ( Revelation 20:14 ).
"Yes - you heard me correctly - the Church began during the ministry of Christ (started by Christ Himself during his ministry) - not on the day of Pentecost as most believe."
The Church - already in existance - was "endued with power" ( Luke 24:49 ) on the day of Pentecost.
The Church was started by Christ and afterward "endued with power" by the Holy Spirit. ("Please do not confuse these two separate ideas.")
There are indications in the Gospel accounts that the Church began during the ministry of Chirst. Read carefully.
I personally believe that the Church began on the day Christ was baptized. I believe that Christ - being the head of the Church - and, "setting the pattern" for it - started "building His Church" that day, after He was baptized. I believe that His baptism was the "cornerstone" of the foundation for the building of His Church. I believe that His baptism [in effect and significance] "annointed" Him as the 'Head of the Church' and also "marked the beginning" of the Church.
"Yes - you heard me correctly - the Church does not cease to exist before or when Christ returns."
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. ~ Matthew 16:18
If the existance of hell (or, the "functional operation" of it; i.e., as long as souls were "passing into it") were to extend beyond the existance of the Church, then it would - by definition - "prevail against it" --- think about it...
It is very unfortunate that 'Dispensationalism' has "gotten it wrong" (the time-frame)...
I believe that there is only one "dispensation" between the 'Ascension of Christ' the 'Second Coming of Christ' - "from the time He left, until the time He returns" - no further "splits" exist in this time-frame.
What comes after it is the creation of the New Heaven and New Earth.
As you probably already know - the term "dispensation of grace" is just another descriptive phrase for the same time-frame as "church age" (the incorrect definition)...
G
It is possible for someone to "show you" / "guide you" / "give direction to you" -- to "drop something in your ear" - to "start you to thinking" - "to prompt you to search the scriptures" - "to encourage you to make the effort to discover [something] on your own" (with the help of the Holy Spirit) -- but, the understanding of it must come from the Holy Spirit.
Post Trib makes perfect sense if you understand it properly - God does provide an escape from His wrath - it is called "the rapture"...
His wrath comes after the rapture.
The "tribulation period" is NOT the wrath of God!
This is my personal "post-trib" / "pre-wrath" understanding:
This list comes from my 'Order of Events' chart:
Study: Order of Events ( <<< Click )
The 1000-year reign of Christ comes after the Second Coming of Christ - which comes after both "the tribulation period" and "the rapture"... Explain to me why the answer to this [implied question] would be any different whether pre- mid- post- trib rapture?
If not tempted by Satan himself, what about the demons?
The Bible does not say that there will be no temptation during the 1000-year reign of Christ. People will live and die - and be tempted - and sin, also. ( I could say more about this - but, will not at this time... )
Post Trib makes perfect sense if you understand it properly - God does provide an escape from His wrath - it is called "the rapture"...
His wrath comes after the rapture.
Yes - believers are "removed" or "taken out of the way" before the 'Wrath of God' is "poured out upon the earth"...
'7 vials' = 'Wrath of God'
'7 vials' = 'Wrath of God'
This is my personal "post-trib" / "pre-wrath" understanding:
Order of Events:
Abomination Of Desolation
Great Tribulation
Trumpet 1
Trumpet 2
Trumpet 3
Trumpet 4
Trumpet 5
Trumpet 6
Heaven / Temple Opened
JESUS
Trumpet 7
Rapture
Pre-Wrath
Vial 1
Vial 2
Vial 3
Vial 4
Vial 5
Vial 6
Armageddon
Vial 7
Marriage Supper
Study: Order of Events
Abomination Of Desolation
Great Tribulation
Trumpet 1
Trumpet 2
Trumpet 3
Trumpet 4
Trumpet 5
Trumpet 6
Heaven / Temple Opened
JESUS
Trumpet 7
Rapture
Pre-Wrath
Vial 1
Vial 2
Vial 3
Vial 4
Vial 5
Vial 6
Armageddon
Vial 7
Marriage Supper
Study: Order of Events
Study: Order of Events ( <<< Click )
The 1000-year reign of Christ comes after the Second Coming of Christ - which comes after both "the tribulation period" and "the rapture"... Explain to me why the answer to this [implied question] would be any different whether pre- mid- post- trib rapture?
If not tempted by Satan himself, what about the demons?
The Bible does not say that there will be no temptation during the 1000-year reign of Christ. People will live and die - and be tempted - and sin, also. ( I could say more about this - but, will not at this time... )
W
The Tribulation era occurred in ancient times, under the pagan Roman Emperors, e.g. Nero, Domitian, Decius, Diocletian. The Apostle John wrote Revelation during (one of) those troubling trying times of Tribulation.
After the Millennium, comes an era of "Re-Tribulation" (for want of worthier words). After the "Re-Tribulation" or "Tribulation II", then the Rapture is a phase of the Second Coming, during which faithful Christians are Ascended to heaven (according to Scripture).
As Christians escaped (physical) Jerusalem in 70 AD, so the Church (spiritual New Jerusalem) will be Raptured to heaven, i.e. Ascended similar to Christ (Mark 16 = Acts 1), at Judgement (according to Scripture). The faithful will be "taken" to safety, others will be "left behind" (literally "sent away") to suffer Wrath, seemingly the "fire from heaven" that makes "earth pass away" (Rev 20:9).
After the Millennium, comes an era of "Re-Tribulation" (for want of worthier words). After the "Re-Tribulation" or "Tribulation II", then the Rapture is a phase of the Second Coming, during which faithful Christians are Ascended to heaven (according to Scripture).
As Christians escaped (physical) Jerusalem in 70 AD, so the Church (spiritual New Jerusalem) will be Raptured to heaven, i.e. Ascended similar to Christ (Mark 16 = Acts 1), at Judgement (according to Scripture). The faithful will be "taken" to safety, others will be "left behind" (literally "sent away") to suffer Wrath, seemingly the "fire from heaven" that makes "earth pass away" (Rev 20:9).
