Exactly when and what triggered the ceasing of the gifts of the Spirit?

[zone]

this is what's so confusing about doctrines.. .. Every doctrine thinks it's right .. Wars break out from it "obviously"

God spoke to Moses and Ezekiel "directly". Why wouldn't he with us as well?
It is a "one on one " relationship .. Am I mistaken about that ?

there's the loaded part.
of course it's one-on-one.
salvation.
He knows every hair on every head, He knows us by name.

BUT: does that mean YOU are Moses or Ezekiel or Paul?

are you claiming God appears to you in a burning bush or in Person some other way?

doctrines are confusing? that was the point of all this....make doctrine too hard to cope with.
rely on experience.
once that happens, you're a sitting duck.

there's ONE doctrine...THE faith delivered ONCE for all....it's in the Bible ALONE.

....

if you are even remotely wondering about what you're involved in, this is a really good time to get real with the Lord and just ASK Him to show you what is the Truth.

He might be merciful. i don't know.

most never come out of this.


.....


A BRIEF HISTORY OF PENTECOSTALISM

(The Three Waves)*


From the second century to the nineteenth century, there is no historical evidence that godly, orthodox believers spoke in tongues. We do have instances of tongues speaking in these centuries, but in every case the people speaking in tongues belonged to heretical groups. (See #15 in the report "The Charismatic Movement: 35 Doctrinal Issues.") From Montanus (2nd Century) to Edward Irving (19th century), instances of "tongues" within the church were never considered to be part of genuine Christianity. Also, we should note that these "heretics" who spoke in tongues were speaking some kind of emotional, nonsense gibberish and not real languages as was the case in Acts chapter 2.

A Brief History of Pentecostalism < click

 

[zone]

No I'm not zone

well some parachurch non-denominational group then?

"Below are some characteristics of the Third Wave movement:

1. Those associated with this movement do not wish to be labeled “Pentecostal” or “charismatic.” despite sharing Pentecostal-like experiences and doctrines. They simply wish to be known as evangelicals who are open to the Holy Spirit."

Pentecostal, Charismatic, Third Wave Movements < click

 

[zone]

When any person is committed to any denomination he cannot be fully devoted to Jesus Christ, Yeshua, nor can he understand the Word fully, for he has accepted the enlistment of another.

sorry Jack.
i'll have to disagree with you on that. if i understand you correctly.

i'm committed to my denomination, because it is 100% Christ Centered and sees Jesus in EVERYTHING in Scripture.
what you're saying essentially is that a church or denomination that goes on for centuries can't know God or understand anything because the people have enlisted the help of "another" - whatever that means.

the church is the Body.
we are supposed to enlist the help of each other.
maybe i misunderstood you.

what i'm seeing is kinda the opposite of what i see on this thread....ppl not reliant of God's Words alone. not trusting what He said.
Abraham believed God - do we?
don't we have to know what He said?

zone

 

[zone]

Signs and Wonders or Neo-charismatic Movement

(The Third Wave)

Church-growth specialist C. Peter Wagner in his book, “The Third Wave of the Holy Spirit” first used the term, “Third Wave Movement.” It originated at Fuller Theological Seminary in 1981 under the classroom ministry of John Wimber, founder of the Association of Vineyard Churches (see Vineyard Christian Fellowship - An Expose). Those associated with this movement do not wish to be labeled “Pentecostal” or “charismatic.” Like the charismatic renewal, the Third Wave Movement is a renewal and revival movement.

Third Wavers are difficult to classify doctrinally because there is a de-emphasis on doctrine. As a result, doctrine can vary widely. See Third Wave Doctrines

The book, Charismatic Chaos by John MacArthur can be read on-line (scroll down to the charismatic chaos section). Chapter 6 of this book deals with The Third Wave (John MacArthur)

From Bible.org comes a well written academic article well worth reading: Excited Utterances: A Historical Perspective On Prophesy, Tongues and Other Manifestations of Spiritual Ecstasy (Dr Matthew Allen)

Below are some characteristics of the Third Wave movement:

1. Those associated with this movement do not wish to be labeled “Pentecostal” or “charismatic.” despite sharing Pentecostal-like experiences and doctrines. They simply wish to be known as evangelicals who are open to the Holy Spirit.

2. They are Gnostics. They believe God can and does communicate outside of the Scripture and directly to His children, giving new revelation that is apart from Scripture. Third Wavers thus deny the sufficiency of Scripture.

3. Five-Fold Ministry is one of the "truths" God is supposedly restoring to the church and is associated with the Latter Rain Movement. This is a system of church government with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. See The Faulty Foundation of the Five-Fold Ministry by Robert M. Bowman.

4. In these end times, God is re-establishing the offices of prophet and apostle with the power and authority beyond anything experienced by the Old Testament prophets and the New Testament apostles. For more information, see False Prophets, Pseudo Apostles, and a New Gospel

5. Unity is far more important than doctrine. Unity is built through relationships, not doctrine. Doctrinal differences are set aside. As a result, those riding this wave are able to infiltrate various churches with the goal of influencing the church to accept the vision of the Third Wave which is unity under modern day apostles and prophets.

6. Power Evangelism and Power Encounters. Jesus and the apostles met the needs of people by healing, casting out demons, and even raising the dead. These miracles made people interested in the Good News. This is how we should evangelize today. A Power Encounter happens when the Kingdom of God encounters the Kingdom of Satan. It is here when God shows his power over Satan and people turn to the Lord.

7. Those associated with this movement are not waiting for the return of Christ but for the Church to rise up and usher in the kingdom. The ushering in of the kingdom depends on the church. Instead of looking for the coming Savior, the church is to solve the problems of planet earth. God’s glory now replaces the physical Son of God coming back.

8. Individuals can be demonized; that is, a demon can live within a part of the body. Even a Christian can be demonized. A demon cannot inhabit the spirit of a Christian, but a demon can live in the body of a Christian.

9. Kingdom Now; Kingdom-Dominion; Restoration Theology (This is also associated with the House-church and Restoration movements. For more information, see Kingdom Theology. For an excellent article on this subject, well worth reading, see Ten reasons to reject Kingdom-Dominion teaching. Another article to read is Dominion Theology, Kingdom Now Theology, Recontructionism.

10. A favorite Scripture that those associated with this movement like to quote is Isaiah 43:19 “Behold, I will do a new thing.” For more information, see The New Thing.

Gnostics

The Greek word, gnosis means knowledge. In the first century, Gnostics insisted they were genuine, Bible believing Christians. They did not reject the apostles nor their apostolic teaching. They did not reject the Bible. They simply claimed they had an additional source of knowledge or insight that was beyond the knowledge of Scripture. This extra knowledge did not come from the study of God’s Word. It was mystical and came by direct communication from God. These private ‘revelations’ were considered divine authority. Gnostics were thus considered heretics by the early church because of their view of revelation.

Today, God does not give ‘new revelation’ to men. God is not doing ‘a new thing’. All knowledge and experiences, all ‘things’ can be found in the written Scriptures. Any knowledge, experience or ‘thing’ that cannot be found in Scripture is not of God and is not for God’s people. Any revelation that goes beyond or contradicts or adds or takes away from what is revealed in the written Word of God is a counterfeit. Experiences such as being ‘slain in the spirit’ or ‘holy laughter’ or being ‘drunk in the spirit’ are not found in Scripture. This is well known to those who teach these things. As a result, those who teach them do not try to defend their teachings with Scripture. Instead, they look for a ‘new thing’, an experience or revelation that is outside God’s Word. Because these experiences lie outside Scripture, they also lie outside the area where God’s Spirit moves. These experiences thus come from areas where other spirits move, in the occult.

Third Wave Teachers:

C. Peter Wagner

Quotes from C. Peter Wagner
New Apostolic Reformation
THE GOSPEL AND SPIRITUAL WARFARE: A REVIEW OF PETER WAGNER’S CONFRONTING THE POWERS
Welcome the new prophets to head of the church
Apologetics Research
Rick Joyner

Rich Joyner is a Gnostic.

The Apologetics Research Resources on Religious Cults, Sects, Religions, Doctrines etc. has written some articles on Third Wave teachers and teachings. This research organization believes Rick Joyner and Morningstar Ministries to be one the most unsound and dangerous teachers around. His error-filled, unorthodox teachings include (but are not limited to) Kingdom Now (or Dominion) theology, extra-biblical revelation, and the denial of the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. Rick Joyner is a Third Wave teacher and has written many books including The Final Quest which is about Joyner's vision on what he sees is a civil war now underway in Christendom between those who support the new thing God is doing today (called the "move of God") and those who oppose it. Those who oppose the "move" as seen by Joyner, comprise the hordes of hell. The "move of God" Joyner supports is the Toronto Blessing and similar renewal and revival movements. Oppose this 'new thing God is doing' and you're in trouble. He has declared war on those who oppose the New Thing God is doing. See Rick Joyner, Christian Gnostic: Civil War for details.

Other Third Wave teachers

Other Third Wave teachers include Jack Deere, Ted Haggard, Bill Hamon, Cindy Jacobs, George Ortis Jr. and,Dutch Sheets. Click here for more information.

Unbiblical Doctrines, Teachings and Phenomena of the Third Wave Counterfeit Revival Movement

Quotes from Third Wave leaders

Pentecostal, Charismatic, Third Wave Movements < click

Fourth Wave



Joint Prophecies of Rick Joyner & Rabbi Cohen

at Messiah'99


Colossians 1:17-19

"And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fulness dwell.


Hashivenu.org is a Messianic Jewish organization located on the campus of Fuller Theological Seminary. Its president, Stuart Dauermann, a doctoral student and teacher at Fuller, was also a past speaker at the Lausanne Consultation on Jewish Evangelism (LCJE). The first "'Core Principle of Hashivenu" states: "Messianic Judaism is a Judaism, and not a cosmetically altered 'Jewish-style' version of what is extant in the wider Christian community." Among Hashivenu's "Favorite Links" is listed The Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA).

In July of 1999, the MJAA sponsored Messiah'99, a conference held in conjunction with the Young Messianic Jewish Alliance and the International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues. The Messiah '99 Brochure announced that conference speakers would include Rick Joyner of Morning Star Ministries, Stephen Strang, editor of ‘Charisma’ Magazine and Stephen Katz, a recruiter for Jews for Jesus. These speakers were presented as being among "Over sixty of Messianic Judaism's most respected teachers conducting Workshops, Panels, Teaching, Preaching. . ."

In a joint presentation to Messiah '99, MJAA President Rabbi Robert Cohen and Rick Joyner of MorningStar Ministries laid out a prophetic vision for the Messianic Jewish Movement.


Highlights of the Prophecies given by Rick Joyner and Rabbi Cohen are as follows:


The 1970s, when Jerusalem returned to Jewish hands, was the end of the Gentile Age.

The 1990s are moving on the spirit of revival that began with the Jesus Movement, which was the source of the Messianic movement.

The Messianic people are a prophetic righteous remnant, "that are calling the Church back to their Jewish roots" and "they are back to become a prophetic call to the nation of Israel."

Messianic people are, "THE HEAD," meaning, of the Body of Christ and the First Fruits.

Whole communities will come to Y’eshua because of their witness.

Jews and Gentiles will be looking to the Messianics to explain the Word of God.

Joyner expressed a concern that Messianics: ". . .would not be corrupted by too many relationships with the Church" and that they are not supposed to be like the Church nor the Church like them as that would, "mess everything up."

Racism is one of the ultimate enemies.

There is a revolution going on in the Church.

Reconciliation happens when there is restitution, and there’s going to be a lot of restitution for the Messianic people as Jews.

Messianic people will have a better ability to witness, heal, discern and utilize spiritual gifts than others.

Messianics are going to help us (the Church) restore our foundations to where they belong -- and we won’t get where we’re supposed to be without their help.

Joint Prophecies of Rick Joyner & Rabbi Cohen at Messiah '99 < click


does this sound familiar?

 

[homwardbound]

"The most detailed treatment of the phenomena of miracles in the New Testament, including tongue-speaking, healing, and prophecy, is 1 Corinthians 12, 13, and 14. These three chapters were written to Christians at Corinth because miracles were being abused and misused. Chapter 12 defines the miracles. Chapter 13 indicates their duration. Chapter 14 explains their disposition. In 1 Corinthians 12, Paul argued that the body (the church) should function harmoniously by using miraculous gifts properly. In 1 Corinthians 13, Paul argued that love is a more excellent attribute than miraculous gifts.

After all, miraculous gifts (i.e., prophecy, tongue-speaking, supernatural knowledge, etc.) were going to fail, cease, vanish, and be done away (13:8). These miraculous gifts are identified in the text with the expression “in part” (13:9-10). The “in part,” or miraculous, would cease and be done away when the “perfect” had come. But to what does the “perfect” refer?

The Greek word translated “perfect” is teleios. The term does not refer to “perfect” in the sense typically understood by the average modern English reader, i.e., to be sinless. Following this faulty notion, some have concluded that the “perfect” refers to Jesus—since He has been the only perfect person.

Other interpretations apply “perfect” to heaven (the only perfect place that will be free of sin and imperfection), or Christian maturity and perfect love (the perfect condition or quality). But, in context, Paul was not contrasting qualities or places. He was contrasting quantities, i.e., those things that were incomplete and partial (miraculous gifts) with that which would be total and complete (the fully revealed Word of God).

The inaccuracy of these interpretations is seen further in the Greek definition of teleios. The word refers to totality, that which is whole, brought to its end, finished, and lacking nothing necessary to completeness (Delling, 1972, 8:73; Arndt and Gingrich, 1957, p. 816; Thayer, 1901, p. 618). When referring to persons, teleios refers to being full-grown, adult, and mature (Arndt and Gingrich, 1957, p. 817; Thayer, 1977, p. 618).

Used in its neuter form, Paul was referring to a thing—not a person—something that, when completed or finished, would replace the incomplete or partial, i.e., the miraculous gifts—which clearly had only temporary significance. Commenting on the abolition of the miraculous gifts of prophecy and supernatural knowledge (mentioned in vss. 8 and 9), W.R. Nicoll observed that “these charisms are partial in scope, and therefore temporary: the fragmentary gives place to the complete” (1900, 2:900, emp. added). Kenneth Wuest agreed: “In I Corinthians 13:10, the word means ‘complete,’ and is contrasted to that which is incomplete” (1943a, pp. 117-118).

Whereas James used the term teleios to refer to the all-sufficiency of God’s Word in its ability to achieve everything it was intended to do (James 1:25), the exegete is forced to conclude that Paul’s use of “perfect” referred to the completed revelation or totally revealed New Testament Scriptures.

The revelation of God’s will was completed in its entirety when the final book of the New Testament, Revelation, was written by John prior to A.D. 100."

Apologetics Press - Modern-Day Miracles, Tongue-Speaking, and Holy Spirit Baptism: A Refutation--EXTENDED VERSION < click

Yes Zone but miracles do happen today I have seen not tongues but miracles. and that no matter which way it is sliced, diced or cubed miracles are real, Ido not know about tongues itself never have spoke in them, but I do know that if God needed me to I would and it would be for God's purpose to bringsalvation the one(s) that heard these tongues in thier language. I know no other way for the gifts to be
Thanks for your posts
Mark 10:23[ With God All Things Are Possible ] Then Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!”
Mark 10:27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

So are all things possible with God us anyone actually drawing on God I am not talkiing about the showoffs looking for rewards of people. I am talking of those that do believe

 

[homwardbound]

Thanks for your frank response but what are the gifts that we have today having been bestowed on the body of Christ that have not ceased? Can you or Zone or anyone tell us what these might be and what purpose they serve for believers or in the world of unbelievers?

[h=3]1 Corinthians 13:13[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

[h=3]1 Corinthians 13:13[/h]New Living Translation (NLT)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.

[h=3]1 Corinthians 13:13[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

[h=3]1 Corinthians 13:13[/h]The Message (MSG)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]But for right now, until that completeness, we have three things to do to lead us toward that consummation: Trust steadily in God, hope unswervingly, love extravagantly. And the best of the three is love.

 

[zone]

Yes Zone but miracles do happen today I have seen not tongues but miracles. and that no matter which way it is sliced, diced or cubed miracles are real, Ido not know about tongues itself never have spoke in them, but I do know that if God needed me to I would and it would be for God's purpose to bringsalvation the one(s) that heard these tongues in thier language. I know no other way for the gifts to be
Thanks for your posts
Mark 10:23[ With God All Things Are Possible ] Then Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!”
Mark 10:27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

So are all things possible with God us anyone actually drawing on God I am not talkiing about the showoffs looking for rewards of people. I am talking of those that do believe

home.
cessationist do not in any way say God can not; does not; or will not act miraculously.
cessationists do not say God is dead.
we do not say the Holy Spirit is not God, is not working.
we do not say God is not 100% Sovereignly upholding every atom of creation by the Word of His Power.
we do not say God is not working Providentially in the lives of every single person, saved and not saved.
we don't say He is distant.
we don't say He doesn't answer prayer.
we don't say He doesn't heal.
we don't say christians aren't gifted people.
we don't say the church has lost faith or function.
we don't say God has left us without the means to be fully sanctified on our way to being glorified at Christ's appearing.


we say: the GIFTS discussed in Acts and Corinthians (for example) are NOT what we have today.
we say: both according to scripture, and according to History, those gifts ceased exactly as they were intended to do.
we say: please, please be careful in our use of the word MIRACLE.

a baby being born is not a miracle.
the seasons changing is not a miracle.
receiving a blessing either with or without answered prayer is not a miracle.

these things are God working in His Providence.
that's POWER enough.

Miracles in Scripture are MAJOR events - like the parting of the Red Sea and Jesus raising Lazarus.

these events are specifically God working OUTSIDE His own Natural Laws and Providential working to SHOW that it is He Alone speaking or doing something.

the MIRACLE is not the main thing.
it is what He is doing in conjuction with the miracle.

He continued to remind the israelites about when He delivered them with a Mighty Hand out of Egypt - He wanted them to REMEMBER and have FAITH.

FAITH in His Promises and Word is what pleases Him...NOT our astonishment at His miracles!

He doesn't like it when we have to continually have PROOF!

i do not and never have discounted God acting supernatually in our lives. He has in mine many times. so that i can not deny it was He.

this is NOT what this thread is about. it is about:

Re: Exactly when and what triggered the ceasing of the gifts of the Spirit?

the answer to that is given already - in Scripture, by Paul:

when that which is complete has come.
when God has finished delivering His full counsel to us for the remainder of this Age (for salvation and sanctification) - this is HIS WORD, the Bible.

He finished it a long time ago.
He wants us to have FAITH in Him through IT.
it's God-breathed and it is His Testimony!

 

[homwardbound]

Homewardbound,
One cannot just pick up any verse in order to prove one's point.

SCRIPTURE MUST BE EXAMINED CAREFULLY IN THE LIGHT OF ITS CONTEXT!!!

If we use scripture out of context, we miss the REASON (PURPOSE) why God has put a particular verse in the Bible, (and why he has excluded millions of other verses).

Too many Christians pick and choose any verse that has their desired KEYWORD and begin to prove their point.

This is the reason we have LONG THREADS.

This is also the exact reason we have so many different DOCTRINES and DENOMINATIONS.

Sorry brother, we are getting nowhere with this discussion. However, I'm glad that Christ binds us together. I'll try to stay on this thread as much as possible

sorry you donot see the truth
John 3 rerad it one cannot see the kingdom without being born again and being born again is being baptized by the holy Ghost
[h=3]Acts 1:5[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
They and us today cannot do anything without abiding in Chriat and abiding is being born again by the life of christ at the resurrectionof Christ via the cross where we now serve God in Spirit and truth all in context Brother hope you see this onlky god can reveal this to you not me or anyone else

1. John 4:23
   But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
   John 4:22-24 (in Context) John 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
2. John 4:24God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
   John 4:23-25 (in Context) John 4 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
3. John 14:17the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

 

[zone]

1 Corinthians 13:13

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 13:13

New Living Translation (NLT)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 13:13

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

1 Corinthians 13:13

The Message (MSG)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]But for right now, until that completeness, we have three things to do to lead us toward that consummation: Trust steadily in God, hope unswervingly, love extravagantly. And the best of the three is love.

ironic that The Message (ugh) kinda got it right.

the word ABIDE means staying...remaining, Home.
the NLT got it WRONG.

Paul speaking:

But for right now, until that completeness (the full Revelation of His Plan and Will in Scripture, everything needed for the Christian faith and salvation of souls), we have three things to do to lead us toward that consummation: Trust steadily in God, hope unswervingly, love extravagantly. And the best of the three is love.

okay?

until what consummation? the consummation of His revealed Plan and Will.
the full and complete record of what He has done in Christ for us.
the bible in FULL

Paul said, for now....for us here (Paul and the others)...who are still only understanding PARTIALLY since God was still unfolding the truth (The Full Counsel)....for now we have these gifts, AND we have three things that ARE BETTER than those gifts (prophecy/languages etc) - faith, hope and love.

what do we do when the partial gifts cease - we'll have the FULL counsel (no longer like looking in a fuzzy glass) AND we will still have:

faith, hope and love.

what are faith and hope for?

"Trust steadily in God, hope unswervingly"

do we need those after we are glorified?

NO!

so Paul is saying AFTER the others cease, we'll have faith hope and love.

"And the best of the three is love."

why?

because LOVE ENDURES FOREVER.

that WHOLE Chapter is about LOVE. not GIFTS.

when i was a child i spoke as a child.
when i became a fully complete mature (telios/perfect) person i put away childish things.

 

[zone]

I already concede that the canon was that which is 'perfect' is come in 1Corinthians 13:8-13.

then whats the problem

 

[peacefulbeliever]

<snip>
this is NOT what this thread is about. it is about:

Re: Exactly when and what triggered the ceasing of the gifts of the Spirit?

the answer to that is given already - in Scripture, by Paul:

when that which is complete has come.
when God has finished delivering His full counsel to us for the remainder of this Age (for salvation and sanctification) - this is HIS WORD, the Bible.

He finished it a long time ago.
He wants us to have FAITH in Him through IT.
it's God-breathed and it is His Testimony!

"WHEN THAT WHICH IS PERFECT IS COME"
"WHEN COMPLETENESS COMES"
Where you see that as "scripture" . . . I see it as when Christ returns - for he is perfect. NOW we know in part but when "completeness" comes or that which is perfect comes we will have no need of that which is in part . . . for when he comes we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is . . . when he returns we will be complete. . .we will put away childish things. NOW we see only a reflection or in a glass darkly but then "face to face". . Is it seeing the scriptures "face to face"? No, we will be complete and see him face to face when he returns. . . .Of course, just my thoughts on the subject.

 

[homwardbound]

When any person is committed to any denomination he cannot be fully devoted to Jesus Christ, Yeshua, nor can he understand the Word fully, for he has accepted the enlistment of another.

Yep the only true place of worship is:
[h=3]Hebrews 8[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]The New Priestly Service[/h]8 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, [SUP]2 [/SUP]a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

 

[homwardbound]

HERE'S HOW IT HAPPENED (PLANNED, AND WARNED AGAINST IN SCRIPTURE BUT NOBODY CARES OR BELIEVES IT):

Three Waves Planned (actually FOUR)



The Pentecostal Movement

(The First Wave)

The modern classical Pentecostal movement began at the beginning of the 20th century and has its roots in the holiness movement and revivalism of the 2nd Great Awakening in America during the 19th century. See A Brief History of Pentecostalism. Many see it as the revival of Montanism, a second century heresy.

See also Neo-Montanism: Pentecostalism is the ancient heresy of Montanism revived

From Bible.org comes a well written academic article well worth reading: Excited Utterances: A Historical Perspective On Prophesy, Tongues and Other Manifestations of Spiritual Ecstasy (Dr Matthew Allen). Chapter 2 of this article is on the heresy of Montanism.

Modern Pentecostals are distinguished by three main doctrines:

The baptism of the Holy Spirit
The manifestation of speaking in tongues
The manifestation of divine healing.

Speaking in tongues, also known as glossolalia, is seen as proof of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. This is one of the differences between Pentecostal and Charismatic theology. See The Doctrine of Tongues (Harold MacKay) and Speaking in Tongues (Lehman Strauss). This experience of Spirit baptism and its initial evidence in tongue speaking must be earnestly sought by believers. It doesn't just happen; conditions must be met. Consciously, fervently, actively the seeker has to do these things. Often, too, he needs the assistance of others already filled with the Spirit. These must pray for him, lay hands on him before the Spirit will come. These conditions vary, but generally they are: worship, joyous faith, earnest expectation, praise and thanksgiving, obedience, separation from sin, intense desire, baptism, asking of God, etc.

Pentecostals differ from Fundamentalists by placing more emphasis on personal spiritual experience and, in most cases, by allowing women in ministry. For an interesting article from the reformed perspective on Pentecostalism, see Pentecostalism: Its identity, History and influence and Pentecostalism in light of the Word.

The biggest difference between Pentecostal belief and Fundamentals is not in the doctrine of justification, but in the doctrine of sanctification. Increasingly today, through the ministry of people such as Billy Graham, we see many denominations including the Church in Rome finding agreement on the doctrine of justification. However it is the doctrine of sanctification in which there is wide disagreement. Key to Pentecostalism is the concept of the Full Gospel. Pentecostals believe in the concept of The Full gospel which states that the Spirit has baptized every believer into Christ at the time of conversion (Justification), but that Christ has not yet baptized every believer into the Spirit (Pentecost). To enjoy the full gospel, this experience is therefore necessary. This is a misunderstanding of the doctrine of justification.

Pentecostals also do not believe in the perseverance of the saints. That is, they do not believe in the doctrine of Eternal Security. They believe it is possible to lose salvation. They are Arminian in doctrine, rejecting Calvinism.

Within Pentecostalism is a group represented by the United Pentecostal Church. This group denies the Trinity and is often known as Oneness Pentecostalism. For more information see the apologetics index on Oneness Pentecostalism (scroll down to find the section) and also Oneness Pentecostals and their Schizophrenic God byJay N. Forrest

Pentecostal, Charismatic, Third Wave Movements < click

God is at no Church here on earth and will not be in any of them because man
[h=3]Hebrews 8[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]The New Priestly Service[/h]8 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, [SUP]2 [/SUP]a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; [SUP]5 [/SUP]who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]6 [/SUP]But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

 

[homwardbound]

this is what's so confusing about doctrines.. .. Every doctrine thinks it's right .. Wars break out from it "obviously"

God spoke to Moses and Ezekiel "directly". Why wouldn't he with us as well?
It is a "one on one " relationship .. Am I mistaken about that ?

God is in Hebrews 8
[h=3]Hebrews 8[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]The New Priestly Service[/h]8 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, [SUP]2 [/SUP]a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; [SUP]5 [/SUP]who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]6 [/SUP]But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
[h=3]A New Covenant[/h][SUP]7 [/SUP]For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— [SUP]9 [/SUP]not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [SUP]11 [/SUP]None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds[SUP][b][/SUP] I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[homwardbound]

sorry Jack.
i'll have to disagree with you on that. if i understand you correctly.

i'm committed to my denomination, because it is 100% Christ Centered and sees Jesus in EVERYTHING in Scripture.
what you're saying essentially is that a church or denomination that goes on for centuries can't know God or understand anything because the people have enlisted the help of "another" - whatever that means.

the church is the Body.
we are supposed to enlist the help of each other.
maybe i misunderstood you.

what i'm seeing is kinda the opposite of what i see on this thread....ppl not reliant of God's Words alone. not trusting what He said.
Abraham believed God - do we?
don't we have to know what He said?

zone

So Zone whatt denomination are you?

 

[homwardbound]

home.
cessationist do not in any way say God can not; does not; or will not act miraculously.
cessationists do not say God is dead.
we do not say the Holy Spirit is not God, is not working.
we do not say God is not 100% Sovereignly upholding every atom of creation by the Word of His Power.
we do not say God is not working Providentially in the lives of every single person, saved and not saved.
we don't say He is distant.
we don't say He doesn't answer prayer.
we don't say He doesn't heal.
we don't say christians aren't gifted people.
we don't say the church has lost faith or function.
we don't say God has left us without the means to be fully sanctified on our way to being glorified at Christ's appearing.


we say: the GIFTS discussed in Acts and Corinthians (for example) are NOT what we have today.
we say: both according to scripture, and according to History, those gifts ceased exactly as they were intended to do.
we say: please, please be careful in our use of the word MIRACLE.

a baby being born is not a miracle.
the seasons changing is not a miracle.
receiving a blessing either with or without answered prayer is not a miracle.

these things are God working in His Providence.
that's POWER enough.

Miracles in Scripture are MAJOR events - like the parting of the Red Sea and Jesus raising Lazarus.

these events are specifically God working OUTSIDE His own Natural Laws and Providential working to SHOW that it is He Alone speaking or doing something.

the MIRACLE is not the main thing.
it is what He is doing in conjuction with the miracle.

He continued to remind the israelites about when He delivered them with a Mighty Hand out of Egypt - He wanted them to REMEMBER and have FAITH.

FAITH in His Promises and Word is what pleases Him...NOT our astonishment at His miracles!

He doesn't like it when we have to continually have PROOF!

i do not and never have discounted God acting supernatually in our lives. He has in mine many times. so that i can not deny it was He.

this is NOT what this thread is about. it is about:

Re: Exactly when and what triggered the ceasing of the gifts of the Spirit?

the answer to that is given already - in Scripture, by Paul:

when that which is complete has come.
when God has finished delivering His full counsel to us for the remainder of this Age (for salvation and sanctification) - this is HIS WORD, the Bible.

He finished it a long time ago.
He wants us to have FAITH in Him through IT.
it's God-breathed and it is His Testimony!

WOW!!!!! Zone you are splitting hairs and trying incessantly to get otherts to follow your way of beleif and thought bad on you girl. God is mine and I am God's and I quarantee you that your denomination along with all denominations are not 100% right in waht they beleive and how they go about thier belief. There true believers in each one but not all believe 100% and all have destructable heresis in each one.
The true place of worship is in Heaven Hebrews 8 and there is no denominational name mebtioned anywhere in the Bible just those that believe God are his and God never set up a second place of woirship only one and that is in heaven. Man as you are pointing has even in your place of worship for God is not there God does not reside in buildings at all

 

[zone]

"WHEN THAT WHICH IS PERFECT IS COME"
"WHEN COMPLETENESS COMES"
Where you see that as "scripture" . . . I see it as when Christ returns - for he is perfect. NOW we know in part but when "completeness" comes or that which is perfect comes we will have no need of that which is in part . . . for when he comes we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is . . . when he returns we will be complete. . .we will put away childish things. NOW we see only a reflection or in a glass darkly but then "face to face". . Is it seeing the scriptures "face to face"? No, we will be complete and see him face to face when he returns. . . .Of course, just my thoughts on the subject.

well, you can sit with your thoughts, or align with what the bible says, peaceful.

 

[zone]

Yep the only true place of worship is:
[h=3]Hebrews 8[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]The New Priestly Service[/h]8 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, [SUP]2 [/SUP]a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

so you haven't joined yourself to the Church Christ instituted home?
it won't be easy maybe. but not doing it is not fulfilling His will for you.

Christ founded a church.
that's an assembly of believers.

 

[zone]

God is at no Church here on earth and will not be in any of them because man

i have no idea what the rest of your thought was, but it's just plain WRONG.

The Holy Spirit is IN believers, and TOGETHER they make up the Church.

do not forsake assembling yourselves, as is the manner of some, especially as you see the Day approaching.

don't you want to do what He said?

i wonder why not?

 

[zone]

So Zone whatt denomination are you?

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