god does not condone rape

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blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
62,343
1,297
113
#2
No, He doesn't.. but it happens regardless, unfortunately..
 
Feb 5, 2017
1,119
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#3
What happened in those times, we would consider differently in these times. If someone does not consent, well, what about those days when woman had no choice and no say in the matter. If a woman is owned (married off) then is that consent by law? Were women treated like livestock going back 100s of years, if not only a 100 years, before woman had more rights?

Would you prefer to go back to those times when you didn't have any rights?

I'm halfway through studying the OT, its pretty disturbing if you ask me. I really want to understand why some Christian are so unchristian. Probably because where it talks about the Lord saying and doing everything (and who is the Lord that is referred to, God? an Archangel? a Demon? Jesus? Lord Vader?) they take that as justification for their own actions.

A man could be coming to rape your husband, and instead you throw your young virgin daughter to them, who was then raped and killed. And you could justify that action, because, it's in the Bible.

I have no idea what the NT is like compared to the OT, but it seems like a world of animals, with a God who seems like not a God of Love tbh. I've learned absolutely nothing from the OT so far. But I know many have - self-justification.

So yes, I think the God of the OT does condone rape, in an animalistic world. He condones killing if he is not satisfied with how you worship. Etc etc. I can see why there are atheists who have a point about this God in the OT.

*And further to that, all the abuse that happens in the church, I'm sure these people have a great belief in the OT.
 

Yeraza_Bats

Senior Member
Dec 11, 2014
3,626
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#4
The verse that people are referring to when claiming that the Bible says that a man can rape a woman and get away with it by paying the father 50 pieces of silver is a mistranslation from the NIV.

You can even easily prove it with the actual verses from said passage.

Here is the passage that tells us what will happen to a man who rapes a woman-

Deut 22:25-27
But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces her and lies with her , then only the man who lay with her shall die . But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter. For he found her in the countryside, and the betrothed young woman cried out, but there was no one to save her.

The next passage then says-

Deut 22:28-29
If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out , then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.

If we are to read this as its written, if a young woman is raped and cries out, and no one hears her, the man is to be put to death.
BUT, if they are found out, the man merely has to pay 50 silver pieces to the father and all is fine.

This clearly doesnt really make much sense. I looked this up for myself to find an actual understanding of what happened here, and this is what I found-

[FONT=&quot]With this just said, the word which the NIV translates as rape comes from two Hebrew words, [/FONT]taphas[FONT=&quot] and [/FONT]shakab[FONT=&quot]. Here are the meanings listed by the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon in reference to these two words:[/FONT]
taphas -

# 08610
1) to catch, handle, lay hold, take hold of, seize, wield
a) (Qal)1) to lay hold of, seize, arrest, catch
2) to grasp (in order to) wield, wield, use skilfullyb) (Niphal) to be seized, be arrested, be caught, be taken, captured
c) (Piel) to catch, grasp (with the hands)
AV - take 27, taken 12, handle 8, hold 8, catch 4, surprised 2, misc 4; 65
(Source: Blue Letter Bible)[FONT=&quot]Here is one example of how this word is used:[/FONT]
"The priests did not ask, ‘Where is the LORD?’ Those who deal (taphas) with the law did not know me; the leaders rebelled against me. The prophets prophesied by Baal, following worthless idols." Jeremiah 2:8
shakab -

# 07901
1) to lie down
a) (Qal)1) to lie, lie down, lie on
2) to lodge
3) to lie (of sexual relations)
4) to lie down (in death)
5) to rest, relax (fig)b) (Niphal) to be lain with (sexually)
c) (Pual) to be lain with (sexually)
d) (Hiphil) to make to lie down
e) (Hophal) to be laid
AV - lie 106, sleep 48, lie down 43, rest 3, lien 2, misc 10; 212
(Source: Blue Letter Bible)[FONT=&quot]As Brown-Driver-Briggs demonstrates, the word can be used in relation to sexual intercourse as well as for other things. The following examples help demonstrate that shakab does not necessarily imply a forced sexual act:[/FONT]
"And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, ‘Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘If any man's wife goes astray and behaves unfaithfully toward him, and a man lies (shakab) with her carnally, and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband, and it is concealed that she has defiled herself, and there was no witness against her, nor was she caught—" Numbers 5:11-13 NKJV
[FONT=&quot]Here, the word shakab refers to a voluntary sexual act between two consenting parties, in this case to a woman who voluntarily chooses to commit adultery. It is clear that the woman in question wasn't forced into having sex. Again:[/FONT]
"If a man lies with a woman so that there is a seminal emission, they shall both bathe in water and be unclean until evening." Leviticus 15:18
[FONT=&quot]These examples clearly demonstrate that these terms do not in and of themselves necessarily imply that rape is in view. This is reflected in the way Deuteronomy 22 has been translated by the following translations:[/FONT]
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; KJV
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, who is not espoused, and taking her, lie with her, and the matter come to judgment: DOUAY-RHEIMS
If a man shall find a damsel [that is] a virgin, who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; WEBSTER BIBLE
If a man find a lady who is a virgin, who is not pledged to be married, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; WORLD ENGLISH BIBLE
When a man findeth a damsel, a virgin who is not betrothed, and hath caught her, and lain with her, and they have been found, YLT
When a man findeth a damsel that is a virgin who is not betrothed, and layeth hold of her and lieth with her, and they are found, ROTHERHAM
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; JPS 1917 OT
"If a man find a damsel who is a virgin who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her and lie with her, and they be found, THIRD MILLENNIUM
If a man find a damsel, a virgin, who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found, DARBY
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; AMV
If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, RSV
If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act, NRSV
If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, NASB
If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, ESV
If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her and they are found, AMPLIFIED
[FONT=&quot]Suppose a woman isn't engaged to be married, [/FONT]and a man talks her into sleeping with him[FONT=&quot]. If they are caught, CEV[/FONT]

The Old Testament and Rape : Commentary on Deuteronomy 22:28-29

There is very good reason to question the claim that God allows rape in the Bible, but only if the two are caught. Dont take every criticism at face value without actually looking into it yourself. A critic of the Bible will jump at the chance to use transnational errors like this as soon as they get the chance, they are in every way as biased as you are. Always look into this yourself.
 
Feb 5, 2017
1,119
34
0
#5
Would you consider forced marriages as a form of rape? Such things were written in an ancient time where this was normal and woman were treated as livestock. Or is that not true?

The verse that people are referring to when claiming that the Bible says that a man can rape a woman and get away with it by paying the father 50 pieces of silver is a mistranslation from the NIV.

You can even easily prove it with the actual verses from said passage.

Here is the passage that tells us what will happen to a man who rapes a woman-

Deut 22:25-27
But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces her and lies with her , then only the man who lay with her shall die . But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter. For he found her in the countryside, and the betrothed young woman cried out, but there was no one to save her.

The next passage then says-

Deut 22:28-29
If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out , then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.

If we are to read this as its written, if a young woman is raped and cries out, and no one hears her, the man is to be put to death.
BUT, if they are found out, the man merely has to pay 50 silver pieces to the father and all is fine.

This clearly doesnt really make much sense. I looked this up for myself to find an actual understanding of what happened here, and this is what I found-




The Old Testament and Rape : Commentary on Deuteronomy 22:28-29

There is very good reason to question the claim that God allows rape in the Bible, but only if the two are caught. Dont take every criticism at face value without actually looking into it yourself. A critic of the Bible will jump at the chance to use transnational errors like this as soon as they get the chance, they are in every way as biased as you are. Always look into this yourself.
 

Tinuviel

Senior Member
Jun 6, 2015
4,738
240
63
#6
Would you consider forced marriages as a form of rape? Such things were written in an ancient time where this was normal and woman were treated as livestock. Or is that not true?
The women of Israel, while they did not have the same rights and privileges as the men, were treated considerably better than livestock, and considerably better than the women of other nations.
 

Yeraza_Bats

Senior Member
Dec 11, 2014
3,626
142
63
29
#7
Would you consider forced marriages as a form of rape? Such things were written in an ancient time where this was normal and woman were treated as livestock. Or is that not true?
Is there a verse in the Bible that commands forced marriages?
And it depends on whether or not the man in the forced marriage was actually raping the woman or not. The fact that they have been paired together does not automatically mean this is what is happening.
There are countless verses in the Bible on how to treat women, and forcing them to do your will is not a part of it.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
22,481
1,100
113
63
#8
Is there a verse in the Bible that commands forced marriages?
And it depends on whether or not the man in the forced marriage was actually raping the woman or not. The fact that they have been paired together does not automatically mean this is what is happening.
There are countless verses in the Bible on how to treat women, and forcing them to do your will is not a part of it.
I'm not sure but it is hard to believe that God would actually force someone to get married. However, there are many verses about arranged marriages. In my mind this is another thing altogether and would not consider these instances to be forced marriages.
 

Yeraza_Bats

Senior Member
Dec 11, 2014
3,626
142
63
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#9
I'm not sure but it is hard to believe that God would actually force someone to get married. However, there are many verses about arranged marriages. In my mind this is another thing altogether and would not consider these instances to be forced marriages.
Theres also the issue of people taking historical accounts of things written of in the Bible, and turning it into "God wants this".

We often have that problem when people come to this site to claim that God wants us to have multiple spouses, as Solomon had multiple spouses, despite the fact that Christ told us a man and a woman are to come together to become one flesh.
 

Innerfire89

Senior Member
Aug 23, 2017
586
16
0
#10
Would you consider forced marriages as a form of rape? Such things were written in an ancient time where this was normal and woman were treated as livestock. Or is that not true?
Arranged, not forced marriage. Gen. 24: 38 39 But you shall go to my fathers house and to my kindred, and take a wife for my son. I said to my master, "Perhaps the woman will not follow me'.
Gen. 24:58 And they called Rebekah, and said to her, "Will you go with this man?"
 

Innerfire89

Senior Member
Aug 23, 2017
586
16
0
#11
The verse that people are referring to when claiming that the Bible says that a man can rape a woman and get away with it by paying the father 50 pieces of silver is a mistranslation from the NIV.

You can even easily prove it with the actual verses from said passage.

Here is the passage that tells us what will happen to a man who rapes a woman-

Deut 22:25-27
But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces her and lies with her , then only the man who lay with her shall die . But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter. For he found her in the countryside, and the betrothed young woman cried out, but there was no one to save her.

The next passage then says-

Deut 22:28-29
If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out , then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.

If we are to read this as its written, if a young woman is raped and cries out, and no one hears her, the man is to be put to death.
BUT, if they are found out, the man merely has to pay 50 silver pieces to the father and all is fine.

This clearly doesnt really make much sense. I looked this up for myself to find an actual understanding of what happened here, and this is what I found-




The Old Testament and Rape : Commentary on Deuteronomy 22:28-29

There is very good reason to question the claim that God allows rape in the Bible, but only if the two are caught. Dont take every criticism at face value without actually looking into it yourself. A critic of the Bible will jump at the chance to use transnational errors like this as soon as they get the chance, they are in every way as biased as you are. Always look into this yourself.
I always thought the verse was about rape. If a woman wasn't a virgin in those times it would be hard for her to find a husband, and having a husband came with benefits. So the marriage was more of reparations for the crime than something good for the offender.
 

Yeraza_Bats

Senior Member
Dec 11, 2014
3,626
142
63
29
#12
I always thought the verse was about rape. If a woman wasn't a virgin in those times it would be hard for her to find a husband, and having a husband came with benefits. So the marriage was more of reparations for the crime than something good for the offender.
If both passages were about the same thing, being rape, why would the pay 50 silver and marry the girl only apply if they are caught, but if not caught, the man is sentenced to death? That doesnt make any sense : p Its clear just by reading the chapter that there is a translation error : p