These two losers?

We do? I thought the general consensus was that the elections are rigged...

That's a general consensus among conspiracy theorists. But seriously, when the republican judges, audits, and recounts all say there was no fraud, ya gotta let go of that.

Honestly I would on the surface expect fraud. But I think if the dems were going to do that, they wouldn't stop with just the presidency. A president without majority support in both houses is going to be stymied. If they were committing fraud, you'd see the likes McConnel et all out of office as well.

Before I spend a lot of time trying to convince someone who's closed minded (no offense), would ya really consider what I had to say? Because, there's a ton of it right in front of your eyes without me having to point it out.

But I will say where his biggest traitorism (is that a word?) is with Christians. He claims to be of God, but self-idolatry, mammon worship, cheating workers, immorality, abandoning the sick/poor/foreign, and embracing lies and hypocrisies are NOT Christian values. And the fruit of the Holy Spirit? Love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control? I don't see any of that going on in maga circles. Just the opposite.

The right uses their stand against abortion (the one Godly attribute they do embody) as a smokescreen to get a pass on everything else.

The left deceives the world, the right deceives believers.

And to go back to the op, neither leading candidate deserves the job. And we deserve better than either of them.

so, a lot of Christians support trump because he does promote ( though not live out) Christian values.

like not being pro-trans, not being anti-family, not pushing drag queen story time, things the liberals do push.

Would you, in turn, be open to my points?

You're calling him a traitor to the nation rests on your judgments of his personal character. I do not know that everything you said about his past dealings is entirely accurate, though some of it would not surprise me. In fact, based on what I've learned of the man, I'm going to say that some of what you listed is suspect, but... Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that he is all of those things.

None of that makes him unpatriotic or a traitor as president. Go by his record as the chief executive, not by his personal life or anything he may or may not have done while in the business world. His actions as president should be how we judge him as worthy of that office.

a) He (and McConnell) are the reasons the SCOTUS is dominated by originalist judges. Surely you can understand the importance of that.

b) He is the only one in recent decades who's genuinely backed Israel -- also important for the Christian. Born-again Bush (supposedly, anyway) didn't back Israel as much.

c) The economy was spurring along at 4% growth per year, and gas was under $3.00 / gallon.

d) He championed western civilization, founded on Biblical principles.

Like him personally or not, being saved or not, the man's a warrior, and he's a warrior for America's founding principles. Those founding principles are what give you and I the freedom to worship in the open. Biden's crew is coming after people like you and I, because we're in the way of their authoritarian and globalist aims. Trump is in the way of that, and that not only makes him a patriot, but worthy of the highest office.

Now... give me a born-again version of Trump, and I'll take the latter. But, we do not have such a choice. And, the born-againers we have don't seem to be doing as much for the country, our House Speaker being a recent and obvious example. So, you go with the one who's more likely to defend your rights as a believer and not try to suppress them. You go with the one who's pro-constitution and anti-fascist. That is Trump.

Give me a Xerxes over a Caligula any day.

Yeah but both are gay friendly and support abortion.

How can a Christian vote for either in good conscience?

Besides, where in the bible do we see the early church getting all worked up over the politics of the Rom,an Empire?

He hosted the log cabin republicans at his retreat over in Florida because he is gay friendly.

There's stuff on the net about this is anybody wanted to search on it.

He may not push as do the liberals but he's definitely courting their vote and says nice things about them.

They couldn't because Israel was under judgment at the time. Protesting, etc., would have resulted in nothing but hardship. However, Paul you will recall did utilize his rights as a Roman citizen when opportunity arose.

Christians are to bear salt and light. Not getting involved in politics, the one area of our lives that can directly affect our way of life, is foolish in the extreme. We are to spread that salt and light in all areas of life, including politics. Besides, God Himself told His people to pray for the society they lived in, because its welfare would determine theirs.

If you believe that we should not get "worked up" about politics, then I assume you condemn the actions of the church's leaders in the 1800s when the anti-slavery movement started?

Howdy Stan and welcome to the forum.

I bet they did though. It's human nature to get all worked up over things you don't like but can't control. I bet some of them got terribly upset sometimes and fussed and hollered and gave themselves ulcers over the politics of the Roman Empire.

It's not recorded in the Bible though, because it didn't do any good - just like today.

BIDEN BORDER CRISIS: December Sets Record for Number of Illegals: Over 276,000 Encounters at Southern Border... and Counting | The Gateway Pundit | by David Greyson

This has been an ongoing crisis since the Biden Regime was installed just under three years ago.
TGP reported back in October that about 10 million illegals have crossed the border since January 2021.
US Border Patrol apprehended 3.2 million illegal aliens in fiscal year 2023 (Oct 1-Sept 30). The number is estimated at 10 million illegal border crossers since early 2021. That number equals about the population of 41 individual states. Let that one sink in.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/20...nts-will-qualify-free-health-care-california/

Cash-strapped California will ring in the new year by offering free health care to all undocumented immigrants who qualify for the state’s government-run health insurance program. There’s nothing like giving free health benefits to people who walk across the border into the US illegally.

While that is self-proclaimed with Biden. That is painting Trump with a very broad brush on both of those agendas.

But…. if you are looking for the prefect candidate … He got up and got outta here about 2000 years ago.

2 Timothy 2:3-4 ... Join me in suffering, like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. A soldier refrains from entangling himself in civilian affairs.

Mark 12:17 ... Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.

Romans 13:1 ... Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established.

Ephesians 6:12 ...For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

John 18:16 ... My kingdom is not of this world [nor does it have its origin in this world]. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would be fighting [hard] to keep Me from being handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this world.

Do these (and other) verses not call upon us to act spiritually, and not worldly? And by extrapolation, to not be involved in worldly things, including politics? Yes we are to pray for our leaders and our country. But scripture never says to VOTE for them. Actually, scripture warns us over and over again that FALSE leaders would arise using God's Name to draw us away from His truth. Would that not include those who turn our focus on worldly remedies, instead of spiritual ones?

You will never win a spiritual battle with guns, bullets, or votes. And make no mistake, ours is a spiritual battle. Not a worldly one.

Exactly, and that's the point. Christ instituted human-run institutions, like church and government, and we are to be involved in both. Neglect any of them, and the enemy will fill the gap. If we're at war, ceding anything to your enemy is evil and stupid.

It is a high standard, yes.

You are misusing those verses. None of those exhorts us to surrender governing power to our enemy-in-chief.

A spiritual soldier will not allow himself to become choked out by worldly pressures, like seed on soil choked out by thorns. This has nothing to do with allowing politics to fall into the hands of satan's people.

This is absolutely a spiritual war. But, that doesn't mean that you allow the home invader to rape your wife and murder your children, while trying to pray him away.

This, folks, is the logic used by those who would allow our governments to be run by our enemies, and forsake both our fellow citizens and future generations to awful tyrannies. Nothing says love your neighbor like that, I guess. And, this is a contributing factor to the west's crumbling culture.

Our rights here in the US are eroding more each day, unless of course one is a liberal.



I'm not in favor of slavery, but to your point - there was a ton of slavery going on during Jesus's time here on earth and when the church got started in the Book of Acts.

I don't recall Jesus and the early church preaching against it and protesting out in the streets.

Our primary focus should be the Great Commission and thru people getting born again and learning to walk with the Lord will cause things to get somewhat better depending on where one is at in the world.

Christians are not going to be taking over the world for Jesus. That will be done by Jesus personally when He returns at the end of the great tribulation and setup up His 1000 year reign and He will rule with a hand of iron as there will be some who rebel against His rule even though satan and demons have been removed and nobody is tempting people to do evil.

Of course that won't be God's people as we will have glorified bodies that are incapable of dying or being killed and we will be ruling and reigning with Jesus. Working for the King!

You are working for the King by loving your neighbor. That includes meeting their physical as well as their spiritual needs. That would include everything from preaching to giving physical resources to voting to protesting to fasting to whatever is needed.

God also allowed His kings to have multiple wives. That doesn't mean that was His preferred or perfect will. And, He came to bring freedom. He declared war on Egypt in the name of breaking slavery.

I'm sorry, but your job on earth is not just to preach the gospel. It is to do whatever good you can do. You yourself said that "...and thru people getting born again and learning to walk with the Lord will cause things to get somewhat better depending on where one is at in the world..." How does that world get a little better by people getting saved? It happens by their influences in the overall culture. That comes, in part, by those same Godly people getting into positions of both economic and political power.

Bear in mind also that protesting and demonstrating in Ancient Rome would've gotten them no where. They were under a dictatorship, and Israel was also under judgment by being under Roman rule. Protesting or rebelling would have accomplished nothing. But, in America, the people are the rulers. WE are the authority.

Does this matter to you? It shouldn't. After all, it's not your job to worry about politics or government, right?