The Rapture

"You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed."

Though in one of your posts you claimed that you are not a prophet, that is exactly the office that you had taken up by claiming that an angel had given you information directly from God the Father, whether you like it or not. According to the scripture above, that makes you a false prophet, because your claim, which you said would be a verification that it came from God the Father, failed. As I said in the previous post, God does not work like that. When He gives a prophet concrete information of something that is definitely going to take place, such as what you did, then it must take place, otherwise it would make God a liar. If human beings could defuse what God has spoken so that the thing that He spoke do not come true because of human weakness, what else could we not trust in? How about salvation? If we can't trust in God's word completely without reservation, how could we hope in His promises

God's spoken word, which is what the angel gave you, does not deteriorate because of mankind. Remember, God sees all things before they happen. How could God keep his promises if it was dependent upon human abilities?

I don't think that you understand the seriousness of what you have done! You can't just sweep this under the carpet and that because you relayed that information as coming from God the Father through and angel, you were saying "thus sayeth the Lord." You were speaking on His behalf regarding something that He didn't say.

My advise to you, is to confess this sin and cast out the angel, because he has proven that he was not sent from God and stick with the written word. In another post you said that this information was new. The problem with this is that, everyone in the world would have to take your word for it and your word alone, leaving us no way to be Bereans. The failure of the event taking place demonstrates that neither this angel nor the information that you passes along, can be trusted.

My original contention with you about this whole thing, was/is that the information that you provided was not in agreement with the written word of God, such as the ground breaking for the temple and the information regarding the gathering of the church. Only the true believers who are watching and looking for the Lord's appearing will be gathered. This event is not meant to be a sign of proof to get people to believe when it happens so that on the first, second and third day they still have opportunity to receive Christ and be caught up. We are warned by the Lord over and over again in scripture to "Watch" and be ready prior to His appearing, living like as though the Lord can come at any moment.

You can't just go on as Christian from here as though nothing has happened. You need to address this with God, repenting of it and cast out that demonic being that has been impersonating an angel from God.

At the time you made this prediction, you were quite adamant that it was a revelation from God via an angel. You were told at that time that if it failed to happen you would be called a false prophet. So here we are.

Some of us have said over and over again that today's prophets are all false prophets. This is another confirmation of that.

I once thought as you, for many years actually, then I saw the error of that thinking. Your views make Christ a liar because He told them He would return in their generation and some standing there would still be alive. I will forever remain a preterist because it is the only view that fits all scripture and puts all of scripture in total harmony.

Time will tell.

It already happened. This is why no date setter will get it right. Paul told the Thessalonians that some of them would "remain over until the presence of the Lord" and so it was.

lol

You're in for one HECK of a surprise one of these days.

No I will not. If Christ returns a third time, then so be it. As I've said, I believe we could be approaching the end of our age based on the wickedness in the world. I believe it is quite possible that God will deal with the sinners of this world at some point and in some way so if and when He does, it will not be a surprise. But nothing in the Bible predicts this other than God's past dealings with man.

Time will tell, my preterist friend.

To Plain Word:

[/quote] I once thought as you, for many years actually, then I saw the error of that thinking. Your views make Christ a liar because He told them He would return in their generation and some standing there would still be alive. [/quote]

Your on-going problem is that you misinterpret the reference to "this generation." The generation that the Lord was speaking of is the one where those signs appear and not the generation that the Lord was speaking from. By doing this, you take away the need for the signs and force the generation to be the one he was speaking from.

In any case, the proof of the generation that the Lord was speaking about, is the one where all of those signs would take place, which currently, none have taken place. Nor have we seen the physical return of the Lord to the earth to end the age. And we know that he was speaking about a physical, visual return, because scripture states in both Matt.24:30 and Rev.1:7, that "every eye will see Him" and is therefore not speaking of a spiritual, invisible return as preterists claim. When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, it will stop the world in its tracks! It will be a world-wide event.

But the bottom line is that, you err because you misinterpret "this generation" to refer to the one that Christ was speaking from and ignore the signs that identify that generation, which is still future.

You also misinterpret the Lord's reference to "some standing here who would not taste of death" interpreting it as though the Lord was speaking about His return to the earth to end the age. However, those who were standing there are identified as Peter, John and James who the Lord took up to the mountain where they saw the Lord transform into his glorified state, which fulfilled the prophecy of seeing the Lord coming in His glory or seeing the kingdom of God, depending on which gospel you read. The proof of that is found in Luke's version below:

"But I tell you truthfully, some who are standing here will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.” About eight days after Jesus had said these things, He took Peter, John, and James, and went up on a mountain to pray. And as He was praying, the appearance of His face changed, and His clothes became radiantly white."

Right after it is written "some who are standing here" it then follows with "about eight days after Jesus had said this" which means that what follows is linked with the prophecy of those who will not taste of death. Those who were standing there who would not taste of death where Peter, John and James and the prophecy was fulfilled when they saw the Lord transform into His glorified state.

You and others however have twisted the scripture to refer to this as the Lord's second coming and that to support your false teaching.

Oh brother AHW, this is red meat for me. Prepare to be totally destroyed - with love of course.

Look at the entire context. You are looking after the passage you quoted. Now look before and after it. I will truncate the passage for effect on the key points. I will use the YLT since it is a word-for-word literal translation. My comments in black.

(Mt 16-17 YLT):

13 And Jesus, having come to the parts of Cesarea Philippi, was asking his disciples, saying, `Who do men say me to be -- the Son of Man?'

Jesus is with all 12 at this moment.

19 and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'

Jesus is clearly speaking of heaven and the rewards they will receive upon getting to heaven. He is NOT speaking of anything that happens after He returns from transfiguration.

20 Then did he charge his disciples that they may say to no one that he is Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time began Jesus to shew to his disciples that it is necessary for him to go away to Jerusalem, and to suffer many things from the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and to be put to death, and the third day to rise.

He is looking ahead to His crucifixion and resurrection and NOT returning from transfiguration.

24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, `If any one doth will to come after me, let him disown himself, and take up his cross, and follow me,

Come after His where? To the Mount of Transfiguration? Do only 3 of them "come after (Him) and follow (Him)? I don't think so. At this point none of the disciples have not been persecuted. The Cross is yet future. Christ is talking about them following Him after the cross joining Him in persecution and death as He will soon experience.

25 for whoever may will to save his life, shall lose it, and whoever may lose his life for my sake shall find it,

Again, Jesus is talking about when His disciples will die and comforting them that they will receive salvation (eternal life). None lost their lives immediately before or after the transfiguration. Nothing is pointing to His transfiguration trip up to this point. Jesus is speaking of things which happen after the Cross.

26 for what is a man profited if he may gain the whole world, but of his life suffer loss? or what shall a man give as an exchange for his life?

Ditto verse 25.

27 `For, the Son of Man is about to come in the glory of his Father, with his messengers, and then he will reward each, according to his work.

Is He speaking of returning from transfiguration or returning after His ascension? Did He return from transfiguration with His messengers (Angels) and did He bring rewards with Him when He came down off the mountain with Peter, James and John? They hadn't done anything yet. Keep in mind, Jesus is still with all 12 at this point and for the next verse. So brother, answer the question in bold. Did Christ return from transfiguration bringing angels and rewards?

28 Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.'

Not just coming, but coming in His reign!! As I just showed, Jesus is still with all 12 talking to them all. Your view requires Jesus to be in "His reign" when He returns from transfiguration. Was a reigning Jesus to be crucified? Did the kingdom come when Christ returned from the mountain? By saying "certain of those standing here (would not taste death)" implies before He comes in His reign that some of them would taste death. None died when Jesus returned from the mountain of transfiguration. All were still alive and well. None had been persecuted. None "took up their cross" and followed Him.

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, and James, and John his brother, and doth bring them up to a high mount by themselves,

Notice 6 days had passed!!! Totally different topic now. Are you still carrying on a conversation 6 days later? Not unless you're married to my ex-wife you aren't. Now the disciples separate, now Jesus is with just 3 of them and none of them would die before they came down from the mount.

2 and he was transfigured before them, and his face shone as the sun, and his garments did become white as the light,

Was Christ now reigning in His Kingdom.
3 and lo, appear to them did Moses and Elijah, talking together with him.

4 And Peter answering said to Jesus, `Sir, it is good to us to be here; if thou wilt, we may make here three booths -- for thee one, and for Moses one, and one for Elijah.'

5 While he is yet speaking, lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and lo, a voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is My Son, -- the Beloved, in whom I did delight; hear him.'

9 And as they are coming down from the mount, Jesus charged them, saying, `Say to no one the vision, till the Son of Man out of the dead may rise.'

14 And when they came unto the multitude, there came to him a man, kneeling down to him.

Now they are all back together. Did He bring angels and rewards back with Him? Take 5 mins and let this sink in. After this He continues to talk about His kingdom as a future event.

Actually brother, you are the one mis-interpreting "this generation." First understand that the disciples asked for the "SIGN(S)" of Christ's presence. A visible man-like identifiable Christ would not require any signs as all would recognize Him. Again, use the YLT:

And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

Notice also that they are discussing the "full end of the age" and not the planet Earth? Now you are correct, all would bow, some would tremble in fear, others would delight. The wicked recognized that they were experiencing divine punishment. We don't have to guess what the presence of Christ would look like because He tells us:

27 for as the lightning doth come forth from the east, and doth appear unto the west, so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man...

Thus, the presence of Christ was like lightening. Tacitus records this lightening striking the temple and lighting it up.

As for the signs given, EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM happened between 33 and 70 AD. What were some of the signs?

FAMINE: Acts 11 27 And in these days prophets came from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28 Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar. 29 Then the disciples, each according to his ability, determined to send relief to the brethren dwelling in Judea.

EARTHQUAKES: Acts 16:26 Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were loosed.

SOME PUT TO DEATH: All disciples but John were dead by 70 AD.

GOSPELS PREACHED TO ALL THE NATIONS: Col 1: 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Learn how they talked. It isn't how we think of it, it's how they did and spoke. All of this happened before the great tribulation which was the siege and destruction of Jerusalem. Did the age come to an end in 70 AD???? Josephus said it did. He said, "the full revolution of the ages had come."

The gathering of the church:
Jesus does not return three times PlainWord. According to the promise and prior to the beginning of God's wrath, the Lord will descend to the atmosphere and that voice like a trumpet will say, "come up here" where the dead in Christ will rise first. Then immediately after that the living in Christ will be changed and caught up with them. Christ is not returning to the earth at this event, but is only descending to gather His church and will then take them back to the Father's house. - John 14:1-3j, I Thes.4:13-18, I Cor.15:51-53.

The second coming:
This event will take place at the end of the seven years when God's wrath has been completed via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. At that time he will return to the earth, physically and visually, to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom on this present earth. Therefore, Christ only returns to the earth one time and it will be after the time of God's wrath at the end of that seven year period. - Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21

I would highly recommend Don K. Preston's book "The last Days Identifed" which effectively along with this other books blows futurist theologies out of the water:

An excerpt:

Commenting on Dwight Pentecost's statement:

He (Pentecost) says the strongest argument for the premillennial view is the idea that the church was not, “the consummation of God’s program.” He is saying that the Church Age is not the goal of the previous ages. Well, unless Paul had something other than the church in mind when he said that the goal of the ages had arrived, then 1 Corinthians 10: 11 proves beyond doubt that the church really is, “the consummation of God’s program.” This means that the last days foretold by the prophets were present when Paul wrote.

Hebrews 1: 1– The inspired writer tells us that Jesus appeared “in these last days.” The author was speaking here of the personal ministry of Jesus. However, he also knew that, although it was, “nigh unto passing away” (Hebrews 8: 13), the Old Covenant World of Israel had not yet passed. He was still in those last days.

Hebrews 9: 26– The writer says that Jesus appeared in the end of the ages. He uses the identical term used by the disciples when they asked about the “end of the age” in Matthew 24: 3. More about this later. It is clear that Jesus did not appear at the end of the Christian Age, isn’t it? It is also obvious that he did not appear at the end of time. However, he did appear in the last days, the last generation, of the Old Covenant World of Israel (Galatians 4: 4).

1 Peter 1: 10-12; 20; 4: 7– Peter is an incredibly significant epistle in regard to the last days. A great deal could be said, but we will keep our comments brief. Please take note of several facts. First, Peter said that the salvation he was writing about was, “ready to be revealed” (1 Peter 1: 5). The Greek word that he uses for “ready” means just that. It has the idea of preparedness and nearness. It is like a bride all dressed up and “prepared” for the wedding. When that bride is all dressed up, that wedding is near!

Second, Peter said that the salvation was ready to be revealed “in the last time,” and then states clearly that he was living in “these last times” (v. 20). These are not two different last times periods.

Third, Peter said that the salvation he was writing about was foretold by the Old Testament prophets. Thus, the last days that Peter was writing about, the days in which he was living, were the last times foretold by the Old Testament prophets.

This is significant because, if you will remember, the millennialists insist that the Old Testament foretold the last days of Israel exclusively. So, if Peter was saying that the time in which he was living was the time foretold by the Old Testament prophets, and the once far off to the prophets was “now,” and that is Peter’s “now,” not ours, “ready to be revealed.”

Shouldn’t we honor Peter’s statements?

Peter tells us Jesus was manifested “in these last times” and, “The end of all things has drawn near” (Literal translation). So, Peter, like Jesus and Paul, believed that the last days were in existence when he wrote. He believed he was living in the critical time of the end. Was he wrong? Or are those who say we are in the last times today the ones that are wrong?

1 John 2: 18– We have here one of the most emphatic, the clearest expressions that the last days were present in the first century that we could find. John, the inspired apostle said, “Little children, it is the last hour. As you have heard that anti-Christ should come, even now there are many anti-Christs. Thereby you know it is the last hour.”

This verse is critical, not only because of what it does say, but because of what it does not say. John does not say, “You know that you are living in the Christian Age because anti-Christs have come.” Yet, that is the way many read it. However, is a denial of Jesus as Messiah the identifying characteristic of the Christian Age?

John did not say, “It is the last age.” Yet, some would have us believe this is what he meant. Are we to believe that the word “hour” is being used in such an unusual way? When we examine John’s gospel, we discover that he uses the word “hour” in a critical, imminent sense. He records several instances in which Jesus said, “My hour has not yet come,” or, “For this hour I came into the world” etc. Not only that, he uses the term last hour, or “the hour is coming,” to refer to the climax of the last days (John 5: 28-29; John 12: 48f).

In other words, “the last hour” in John did not designate a long period of time. It meant the climax of the last days. Thus, when John said, “It is the last hour!,” this is a powerful declaration that the last days were not only present when he wrote, they were rapidly coming to a close.

We must take note here that some try to delineate between the last days and the last day. This is done to hold onto some traditional views. However, this view is untenable. Would not the last days have a “last day?” If not, why not? To suggest that the last days is a referent to the last days of Israel, but then to insist that the term last day, must refer to the end of the Christian Age, is to create a dichotomy not found in the Bible. This is proven in many scriptures.

Preston, Don K.. The Last Days Identified! (Kindle Locations 1255-1267). JaDon Management Inc.. Kindle Edition.

Get the book.

Not misinterpreting anything! The fact is that the generation that the Lord is speaking of, is the one where those signs are present and not just those signs, but the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as well, which will be taking place during that time period. We haven't seen any of them. You're trying to claim something without the proof to go with it.

And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

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Do you guys ever stop distorting scripture? Jesus said, "just as lightning shines from the east and is seen even in the west" meaning that He was using it as an example of His sudden and glorious arrival, i.e. no one would have to guess as to whether or not Christ had come, because just as everyone can see lightning shining, so will be His coming. He adds that, "all the peoples of the earth will see Him arriving on the clouds of heaven and will mourn because of Him." Jesus did not mean that He would come as a literal flash of lightning referring to striking the temple. Jesus has not yet gathered His church which takes place first and therefore, neither has He returned to the earth to end the age. As scripture states, every eye will see him.

None of those signs have happened! In order for Christ to have returned, it would mean that all of the events in Matt. 24:29-31 where the inhabitants would see Him arriving on the clouds, as well as all of the events of Revelation 19:11-21. The famine spoken of, which is future, will be the result of the 3rd seal/rider on the black horse, which will affect the entire world. It will be apart of the first four seals, by which a fourth of the earths population will be killed during the first 3 1/2 years of that last seven year period.

EARTHQUAKES

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There are several earthquakes mentioned in the book of Revelation, none of which have anything to do with when Peter or Paul were in prison. You're simply misapplying scripture to support preterism.

SOME PUT TO DEATH

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The above is also false, for John was banished during the reign of Domitian who ruled from 81 - 96 AD. Therefore, John was banished to Patmos some time during those dates and which is also when the book of Revelation would have to have been written. You have to say that Revelation was written prior to 70AD, because if it was written after 70 AD, your preterism comes tumbling down like a house of cards.

GOSPELS PREACHED TO ALL THE NATIONS:

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Really? The world has nowhere recorded the following, nor any of the other events of wrath mentioned in Revelation for that matter. When has any generation experienced the following:

"Then I saw another angel flying overhead, with the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come. Worship the One who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and the springs of waters.”

Regarding that time, Jesus said that "there will be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen, from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. And except those days were shortened, no one would be left alive on the planet earth. The destruction of the temple pales greatly in comparison to great tribulation such as the world has not seen, which means that the entire world is affected and not just Israel.

I have always said it and will continue to say it: Preterism is one of the most deceptive false teachings on the planet. People who have adopted this teaching have become brainwashed. They are unable to see the truth of God's word.

If you think that the great tribulation has already taken place, with the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, you have no idea of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.

love it!!!!!!

AHW,

Rather than continuing to make your same points over and over, how about you explain how it was Christ returned from the Mount of Transfiguration with His angels, bringing His rewards in His Kingdom. Did the Kingdom-Reigning Christ bearing rewards with Angels go to the Cross?

Roadkill, I just now saw this thread. I also sincerely thought the Spirit was telling me something and put it out for all in here, so convinced was I that it would happen. This was a few years ago, soon after I first joined the site. What I was thoroughly convinced of did not happen and I was left very confused. I'm still a bit confused over it. I don't think you should leave. No one is demanding that you do that.

Brother Loc,

I was reading in Lk 12 this morning and found this which pretty much tells us what period of time Christ was discussing throughout.

40 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”
41 Then Peter said to Him, “Lord, do You speak this parable only to us, or to all people?”
49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! 51 Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. 52 For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three. 53 Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

He came to send fire upon the earth (Jerusalem) and to divide houses, believers against unbelievers. Then we see in Mark 13:

12 Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.

Do you supposed both passages are discussing the same division within families? I certainly do. Israel was the kingdom divided against itself which could not stand so it fell in 70 AD.

AHW,

Mat 3: 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

What wrath is being discussed in the above? End of the world wrath or destruction of Jerusalem wrath? From what place do you think the Pharisees and Sadducees came from when they went down to the Jordan? New York City, London, Paris, etc. or was it Jerusalem? If they left Jerusalem does history tell us that Jerusalem faces some wrath in their near future?

"Even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees." What does John mean? Does this have a ring of immanency or was this to take place thousands of years later? Was John possibly saying that the Pharisees and Sadducees are the trees that would be cut down and thrown into the fire? How was their temple destroyed again? Was it by fire, flood, tornadoes, tsunami, or other means? People as trees AHW??? Do we see any harm coming to "trees" in Revelation? “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” Just asking.

You know, Jesus talked about a fig tree and he cursed it, didn't He? It bore no fruit so He made it wither away. He also taught this:

Luke 13: 6 He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ 8 But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’ ”

Do you understand this parable AHW? How many years was Christ's ministry? How many years did the fig tree bear no fruit? Notice the man wanted 1 more year to attempt to nurture the tree? God gave Israel 40 more years to repent and come to Him and those that didn't, He cut them down. 40 years is a generation, is it not? So which generation do you suppose Jesus is discussing below? You see, it all fits together.

Luke 21: 29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.