Why so much confusion about salvation?
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
You are teaching an impotent God. If He were drawing everybody right now, everybody would be saved. God doesn't try anything. God is not losing the war for souls with Satan by His own prophecy as you suggest. You must look at the whole plan of salvation to understand what God is doing and when.
-
1
- Show all
Ok, so that means those that came to Christ had to come forcefully and not of their own because the word draw that is used in Jn. 6:45 means forcefully and so if the later half is true has in the earlier have then it would have to mean by force. But don’t take my word check it out in a concordance or a lexicon.
More examples of ἑλκύω:
4 Maccabees. 14:13
Observe how complex is a mother’s love for her children, which draws everything toward an emotion felt in her inmost parts
Jeremiah 31:3
The Lord appeared to him from afar, saying, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore have I drawn thee in compassion.
4 Maccabees. 14:13
Observe how complex is a mother’s love for her children, which draws everything toward an emotion felt in her inmost parts
Jeremiah 31:3
The Lord appeared to him from afar, saying, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore have I drawn thee in compassion.
Jn. 18:10, 21:6, Acts 16:19
Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
In each one of these examples is the same Greek word as in Jn. 6:44 and they all have to deal with force.
Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
In each one of these examples is the same Greek word as in Jn. 6:44 and they all have to deal with force.
I believe those references were all directed towards the elect of God, for they were given the gift of faith before the foundation of the world and they are the only ones who receive the scriptures in faith. Those scriptures are dead to the reprobate and they cannot receive them neither will they ever receive them.
While this may be the Calvinistic spin on saving faith, that is NOT what the Bible teaches at all. So here is Bible truth, whether you accept it or reject it.
ROMANS 10
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
This passage makes it crystal clear that it is through the hearing of the Gospel (under the power of the Holy Spirit) that faith is generated in the hearts of sinners. So God does not pick some to receive this faith while preventing others from doing so. That would be a total violation of His character and His Gospel.
ROMANS 10
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
This passage makes it crystal clear that it is through the hearing of the Gospel (under the power of the Holy Spirit) that faith is generated in the hearts of sinners. So God does not pick some to receive this faith while preventing others from doing so. That would be a total violation of His character and His Gospel.
OK, so what separates those who receive this faith and those who reject it. Is it because one is smarter than the other, or more intelligent or wiser or one chooses to take the gamble while the other doesn't.
Nothing answers that question better than the doctrine of predestination and election
Nothing answers that question better than the doctrine of predestination and election
-
1
- Show all
1. No, if Christ died for the sin of the whole world or took the judgement for the sin of the whole world and the Father still places people in hell for sins that Jesus paid for, that would make the Father unjust.
Romans 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
2. Yes, He desires it but it is not His will to save the whole world or it would be done, by His will He brings forth His elect.
James 1:18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
3. No, we are justified or saved by grace not by works of righteousness, it is the gift of God, then by faith we recieve the propitiation of Christ, repentance and faith are works of righteousness.
Romans 3:22b-25 For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Titus 3:4-7 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
4. Yes.
5. No, it shows that the Spirit has given the sinner life. granted by the Father, because the flesh is of no help and no one can come to Jesus unless the Father grants it or caused them to be born again..
John 6:63, 65 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life......65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.
I Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
6. No, it is by grace to those that He sets free from sin.
Romans 6:20-23 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
7. No, is is to the one the Father grants life to or causes to be born again, John 6:63, 65, I Peter 1:3 and John 3:3, because no one can even see the kingdom of God unless the Father grants it or caused you to be born again or made alive in the Spirit.
John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
8. No, the New Birth is salvation or life granted by the Father, it is the gift of grace that only He can give no work of righteousness will cause you to ne Born Again, because we are justified by His grace it is a free gift from God.
Romans 3:22b-25 and Titus 3:4-7
There is no 9.
10. Yes.
11. No, they walk in the Spirit because God has called them to freedom and because of that they walk in the Spirit so that they do not devour one another to fullfil the Law.
Galatians 5:13-17
For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
12. Yes amen it is the Father that starts it and it is Jesus who completes it and presents us to Himself for His own glory.
Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
Romans 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
2. Yes, He desires it but it is not His will to save the whole world or it would be done, by His will He brings forth His elect.
James 1:18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
3. No, we are justified or saved by grace not by works of righteousness, it is the gift of God, then by faith we recieve the propitiation of Christ, repentance and faith are works of righteousness.
Romans 3:22b-25 For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Titus 3:4-7 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
4. Yes.
5. No, it shows that the Spirit has given the sinner life. granted by the Father, because the flesh is of no help and no one can come to Jesus unless the Father grants it or caused them to be born again..
John 6:63, 65 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life......65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.
I Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
6. No, it is by grace to those that He sets free from sin.
Romans 6:20-23 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
7. No, is is to the one the Father grants life to or causes to be born again, John 6:63, 65, I Peter 1:3 and John 3:3, because no one can even see the kingdom of God unless the Father grants it or caused you to be born again or made alive in the Spirit.
John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
8. No, the New Birth is salvation or life granted by the Father, it is the gift of grace that only He can give no work of righteousness will cause you to ne Born Again, because we are justified by His grace it is a free gift from God.
Romans 3:22b-25 and Titus 3:4-7
There is no 9.
10. Yes.
11. No, they walk in the Spirit because God has called them to freedom and because of that they walk in the Spirit so that they do not devour one another to fullfil the Law.
Galatians 5:13-17
For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
12. Yes amen it is the Father that starts it and it is Jesus who completes it and presents us to Himself for His own glory.
Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
Thank you for this Johnny, you summed it up very well. I have been trying to get the same points across and found that most folks don't like to hear that we can take no credit for our salvation.
Most people insist that they played an important role in receiving their salvation. I believe it's all of God, He does everything needed from start to finish. Even the act of receiving the prize of the finished work of Christ is a gift that nobody would receive it without the help of the Holy Spirit.
I don't know how to put it in a nutshell but I believe the Bible teaches that salvation is all the work of God and we played no part in it, because we were dead in our sins when God quickened us to life.
Most people insist that they played an important role in receiving their salvation. I believe it's all of God, He does everything needed from start to finish. Even the act of receiving the prize of the finished work of Christ is a gift that nobody would receive it without the help of the Holy Spirit.
I don't know how to put it in a nutshell but I believe the Bible teaches that salvation is all the work of God and we played no part in it, because we were dead in our sins when God quickened us to life.
That's the typical Calvinistic spin on the matter. But just the third chapter of John puts the lie to that. And these are the words of Christ:
JOHN 3
THE BRAZEN SERPENT IS A TYPE OF CHRIST
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
CHRIST DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
THEREFORE THE WHOLE WORLD MAY BE SAVED
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
BUT ALL WILL NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Now the question you should ask yourself after reading the plain words of Christ is "Should I believe the Lord Jesus Christ (the Son of God) or mere men who have distorted the truth?"
JOHN 3
THE BRAZEN SERPENT IS A TYPE OF CHRIST
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
CHRIST DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
THEREFORE THE WHOLE WORLD MAY BE SAVED
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
BUT ALL WILL NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Now the question you should ask yourself after reading the plain words of Christ is "Should I believe the Lord Jesus Christ (the Son of God) or mere men who have distorted the truth?"
I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, who never said that he died for the whole world. That would make Him a liar and a miserable failure, rather He died to save "MANY" as He said Himself.
If God wanted to save the whole world he could have easily done it but He chose to leave many in their fallen sinful state so they are eternally damned without any hope of salvation. Who are we to argue with anything that God does.
If God wanted to save the whole world he could have easily done it but He chose to leave many in their fallen sinful state so they are eternally damned without any hope of salvation. Who are we to argue with anything that God does.
Which goes to show that the meaning has to be determined from context. From my experience the holy spirit gently draws a person by wooing them with the love and righteousness of GOD, who follows and responds when GOD illuminates their heart with the knowledge and understanding of Christ. So the claim that GOD does everything is patently false.
That's the huministic view of salvation or the human exalting gospel, Jesus says no one can see the kingdom unless they are born again or those that the Spirit gives life to.
John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
If a person cannot see the kingdom of God they cannot know that they need to have faith, repent or believe and it is God that caused us to be born again, the Spirit gives life and the flesh can do nothing.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
I Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
If you read the epistles and read the words us, we, our or you and think that they are speaking of the world as a whole it is becuse that is who you are in your heart, example if you read this verse and think the apostle Paul is associating us with the world again it is because that is what is in your heart.
Romans 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Yes God loved the world in that He gave His onw Son. John 3:16 For this is how God loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. ESV footnote, in God's common grace He showed His love for the wolrd in that He gave His own Son, He shows His love for the Church or His chosen people in that while we (His people) were still sinners, Christ died for us (again His chosen people), not the world as a whole. It boils down to if Christ paid for every sinn of every person in the world from the begunning of time to the end of time and God still judges people to hell that God laid His wrath on Jesus for those sins, He would be an unjusted God. Christ suffering was by the Father's definate plan and foreknowledge.
Acts 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
If you believe that the Father haphazardly placed Christ on the cross leaving it open to the choice of humans that do not seek Him, you have made God like a man or your own limited mind and forthought.
Roamns 1:20-23 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
You say how have I made God resemble man, birds, animals or creeping things, you do by looking at the definate plan of God in the creation of all things and say that He had no definate plan when He placed His wrath on His own Son for the sins of His people, that He would leave it in the hands of men that are died in trespasses. In this way you make God to be like mortal men, birds, animals and creeping things that His plan has not as much thought or plan then a man making a house or a bird making a nest or an animal finding and using a cave for shelter or a creeping thing finding a burrow in the ground and using it as shelter. You do not honor or glorify God in His perfect plan of the salvation of His people.
John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
If a person cannot see the kingdom of God they cannot know that they need to have faith, repent or believe and it is God that caused us to be born again, the Spirit gives life and the flesh can do nothing.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
I Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
If you read the epistles and read the words us, we, our or you and think that they are speaking of the world as a whole it is becuse that is who you are in your heart, example if you read this verse and think the apostle Paul is associating us with the world again it is because that is what is in your heart.
Romans 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Yes God loved the world in that He gave His onw Son. John 3:16 For this is how God loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. ESV footnote, in God's common grace He showed His love for the wolrd in that He gave His own Son, He shows His love for the Church or His chosen people in that while we (His people) were still sinners, Christ died for us (again His chosen people), not the world as a whole. It boils down to if Christ paid for every sinn of every person in the world from the begunning of time to the end of time and God still judges people to hell that God laid His wrath on Jesus for those sins, He would be an unjusted God. Christ suffering was by the Father's definate plan and foreknowledge.
Acts 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
If you believe that the Father haphazardly placed Christ on the cross leaving it open to the choice of humans that do not seek Him, you have made God like a man or your own limited mind and forthought.
Roamns 1:20-23 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
You say how have I made God resemble man, birds, animals or creeping things, you do by looking at the definate plan of God in the creation of all things and say that He had no definate plan when He placed His wrath on His own Son for the sins of His people, that He would leave it in the hands of men that are died in trespasses. In this way you make God to be like mortal men, birds, animals and creeping things that His plan has not as much thought or plan then a man making a house or a bird making a nest or an animal finding and using a cave for shelter or a creeping thing finding a burrow in the ground and using it as shelter. You do not honor or glorify God in His perfect plan of the salvation of His people.
Amen, it is because they do not want to glorify God as God or Soli Deo Gloria. Men that think they can save themselves, either have not come to the full understanding of the Bible because they believe every thing men say and not what God says, they look soley for Scripture that seem to say that man saves himself and agnore the verses that says it is God alone or His favor that saves and saves alone.