Not By Works

Ben,

I have never ever heard a Christian say that they do not have to attend church on a Sunday because they are no longer under the Law of Moses.

Furthermore I have never ever heard that preached.

Was church attendance required under the law of Moses?
I'm not aware of that if it was.

In fact we find in the NT

Hebrews 10:24-25
24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Requirements to attend Sunday service in order to be saved is not correct, I will admit that.

Some believers may not be able to attend church on a Sunday or any day of the week due to various reasons.

In our church we have a Monday group. as they meet on Monday.
It's for OAP'S.

My wife is getting involved in it as a helper (side note as I have turned 50 I'm eligible to attend😎)

So Monday is their church day.
There is fellowship, worship and a sermon.
Some find that easier and quite a few still come on Sunday.

In a sense we are free from having to go to church in a religious sense.

But at times we can't make church for various reasons.

Given your experiences above if I heard people saying what you have heard I myself would question but only to the extent they never ever attend church because they do not want to.

That's different from one who says they do not have to but still do attend.
It's also different to those who want to but for various reasons cannot do.

So to finish, what are the Sabbath restrictions to you?

LOL! There is not even one "choice" passage that promotes or supports the OSAS/ES agenda -- my opinion!

Why do those who reject ES always post what you have above?

"WE CAN MUDER AS MANY TIMES AS WE WANT, or WE DONT HAVE TO BELIVE OR HAVE FAITH IN JESUS AND SO ON"

I'm surprised you did not mention adultery.

So yes let's take this to the obvious conclusion.

Murder

1 John 3:15
15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

One does not have to commit the physical act. Hate comes from the heart
Yet a genuine beliver at times can fall foul of this. But they do not commit the physical act.

A genuine beliver at some point will bring this before God because they know it is wrong.

Same with adultery.
Look at a woman in lust, it's in the heart so it's the same.

The obvious conclusion you wish to back up your retisant against ES is in fact illogical.
No genuine beliver in Jesus will want to be the person you talk about above.

If someone is like the person you describe above then the logical conclusion, the obvious conclusion is that they are not saved, BECAUSE THEY DO NOT GIVE TWO HOOTS ARE ARE NOT SAVED TO BEGIN WITH.

Baptism does not save anyone at anytime, place, any age. You and those who believe as you do are putting stipulations on the gift of grace/salvation given to all mankind by God Almighty through His Son Jesus Christ. It's free for the acceptance. Following Jesus is another whole story. You are placing baptism as part of the saving process and that simply is not so.

OSAS AND FAS ARE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES THAT PROMOTES DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD AND REJECTS AND NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS AND COMMANDS. (mark 7:6-13, Isaiah 5:20-24)

SO DO NOT LET ANYONE DECEIVE YOU...FOR THE WRATH OF GOD COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT.(Ephesians 5:6)

OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST WHO IS THE SOURCE OF ETERNAL LIFE FOR THOSE WHO OBEY HIM (Hebrews 5:8-9) SAID:

Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have RECEIVED and HEARD ; OBEY IT and REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

JESUS HAVE NOT FOUND THEIR DEEDS "COMPLETE" IN THE EYES OF GOD.

THEN HE TOLD THEM TO "OBEY" WHAT THEY RECEIVED AND HEARD AND TO REPENT.

JESUS WAS SPEAKING HERE TO ONE OF THE SEVEN CHURCHES AND WE KNOW THAT THE "CHURCH" IS THE BODY OF CHRIST WHOM HE WILL SAVE. (eph 5:23)

WHY WILL HE SAY THAT THEIR DEEDS ARE NOT COMPLETE IF WORKS ARE NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION AND THAT "FAITH ALONE" SAVES?

WHY WOULD JESUS COMMAND THEM TO OBEY AND REPENT IF IT
IS NO LONGER NECESSARY SINCE THEY ARE SAVED ETERNALLY? (OSAS)

IS JESUS IGNORANT OF THIS DOCTRINE OR IS IT CONTRARY TO HIS TEACHINGS AND COMMANDS AND THEREFORE ARE JUST FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINE THAT NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS?

JESUS AND HIS FATHER REQUIRE SOME WORKS TO BE COMPLETED AND ASKED FOR OBEDIENCE AND REPENTANCE.

Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous REQUIREMENTS of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Malachi 3:14 “You have said, ‘It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by CARRYING OUT HIS REQUIREMENTS and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty?

GOD REQUIRES OBEDIENCE AND REPENTANCE IN OUR PART OTHERWISE HIS WRATH WILL COME ON THOSE WHO ARE "DISOBEDIENT".(eph 5:6 )

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.

2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

DO NOT BE DECEIVED... GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED...WE REAP WHAT WE SOW...(Galatians 6:7-10)

NOW IF FAITH ALONE SAVES AND ONCE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS SAVED, DOES THIS PASSAGE BELOW CONTRADICT THESE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINE OR DO YOU REJECT IT OR TWIST IT TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE THAT WOULD FIT YOUR DOCTRINE?

Matthew 24:9-14 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, THE LOVE OF MOST WILL GROW COLD, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED . And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

MANY WHO HAS FAITH WILL TURN AWAY FROM THEIR FAITH.

ARE THEY STILL SAVED AFTER TURNING AWAY FROM THEIR FAITH(ALONE)?

DO YOU MOCK GOD AND REJECT THESE VERSES BELOW?

Galatians 6:7-10 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature WILL REAP DESTRUCTION; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit WILL REAP ETERNAL LIFE. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD..

"LET GOD BE TRUE..." (Romans 3:3-4)

Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT.


.

Wondering about this answer . . .? Are you saying that a true believer will never commit murder? If this is what you are saying here (and it seems to me this is what you are saying) then do you also believe that no real Christian would commit suicide (that is - murder himself)?

As for going to church on Sundays or any other day of the week, my thoughts: I was an active church goer for most of my life. I brought my kids up in church. There are many goodhearted and faithful peopled in church... For the last year and a half, I have not attended my church. I have personal reasons which do not belong on a social media platform. I neither recommend nor do I not recommend regular church attendance. I have pondered seeking another local church (preferably non-denominational) but my husband does not want to leave this church, albeit he has stopped going as well. I have a daily devotional, read books by Christian authors, continue to study God's Word as I did before I became a laxed church goer. My problem is with the churches of today. Not all but some and the doctrine being expressed from the pulpit and from some of the regular attendees. I have no problem with my Father God nor His Son Jesus Christ other than the fact I strive to be perfect as He was perfect and of course, I fail on a daily basis. Having one's name on a church roll and regularly attending does not ensure life eternal. Having a heart/soul changed by the Blood of Jesus and accepting that free gift of salvation is what matters.

So you find it something to laugh about when you disagree with others concerning doctrine?

Your opinion is always welcome and I hope you feel the same for those who differ with you.

Difference of opinion should be discussed but not laughed at.
If it comes to an impasse then no point discussing further.

So obviously you disagree with ES.
I believe in ES.
You believe a genuine beliver can lose salvation.
I do not.

So you and me are doing the following

1 Corinthians 3:9-15
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

We are building on Christ our foundation.

There are many verses that refute your post and many verses that back up your post.
One is right and one is wrong.
Gold or wood.

Its what hey have to do, water dwn the law so they can see themselves as being righteous, or not like the sinner,

Its what the pharisee did. And jesus said he was still condemned.

Hats why legalism is so dangerous, it refuses to allow a person to fully repent and see their true state.

Thanks, Bill, for your point - I stand corrected and I apologize - I do not mean to laugh over those who differ with me in doctrine.

In my defense, though, I was not "laughing" at those who believe in OSAS - I was responding to a post from a brother who does not believe in OSAS, but who made room in his answer for some Scriptures to support OSAS - thus he was really saying that Scripture contradicts itself.

And I meant my response to be very light-hearted - but I am sorry how it came across - and I stand corrected - Thanks, Bill

Isaiah 5:20-24 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for they have rejected the law of the Lord Almighty and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel.

2 Timothy 4:1-5 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

No what I'm saying is that those who reject OSAS (but I do say that I do not like that term based on those who have an illogical conclusion to its meaning, so I prefer ES)

I'm saying that people who disagree with OSAS believe that those who believe in ISAD THEN they can do what they want, like commit murder, commit adultery because they can and because they say they believe in Jesus it's ok to do such things.

I was trying to say that to focus on the physical is and use it as an excuse to reject it negates the spiritual aspect.

That's why I posted the verse

1 John 3:15
15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

I do think that a genuine beliver can commit suicide as well as no genuine beliver will do.

Mental health issues affect belivers and non believers.

Do you diffrentate between the two?

Chester,

I now realise that I got your post wrong.
Because like you I agree and posted the same as what you were conveying in your second paragraph.

I said exactly the same to the same person you responded to.

Though said person never posted verses that implied OSAS but then proceed to push and post verses that negate ES when I asked him to. Not sure if we are talking about the same person.

I got you totally wrong and I have fell foul of myself.
I have often posted myself to say "Get to know the person and respond accordingly"

So I now stand corrected and I apologise to you.

PS you are more than welcome to LOL at me.
Afterall I do it to me and so does my wife and 4 kids, and I'm sure my 2 dogs do as well.

God bless you bro

let's see what happens if I pretend that this thread is a prayer-request in the prayer section forum

God, help us overcome our legalistic ways, help us stop leaning on our own understanding, you know how difficult it is to trust your love because of how untrustworthy our hearts can be, we are aware of even a small glimpse of how bad our hearts can be, none of our works can measure up, I ask that you help break the chains, the shackles and the rituals, yes man-made rituals, and you have stated in the parable of improperly mixing wineskins and the wine skins would tear, man made rituals can never mix with the grace of God. Help us, and lead us in the ways that even with our bad hearts, you can help us trust your love and that everything will be ok, you will fill us with the love that we can never deserve. Fill us to the brim, just like how in John 2, people have filled the jars to the brim, and your love can make even the wine-taster say "you have saved the best till now"

thank you
and amen

OK, so you say that Jesus met all the conditions because I could not meet even one condition, so Jesus did it all.

So let's explore that concept.

There is one condition that all must meet, and that is we must at least believe in Jesus as the Son of God.
But you say that this is a condition that was met by God Himself. Apparently we do not even have the capacity to meet this condition, and so it was taken care of by God.

If God meets the condition of belief, then God also is the One that does not meet the condition for those that do not believe. IOW, God decides from the very beginning who will have EL and who will have Eternal Hell. Wow, geesh, wow, is that how it works Mr. Calvin.

Does God decide who goes to Hell, to suffer unbelievable tortures for all eternity? Is that really how you get around the first condition of believing?

Now lets take a look at the condition of love.

After you believe and are saved by a mysterious random selection, God now automatically imputes faith and love into your brain. This action by God, guarentees that you will be there until the time of judgement. God does this imputing to those He has selected to believe so that they will meet the condition of charity/love. Love for God becomes a condition, because if you do not it, you will not have EL.

And finally, no murderer has EL abiding in him. 1 John 3:15.

WHO MOCKS GOD?
THOSE WHO SAY THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS NOT PART OF SALVATION ARE THE ONES WHO CLEARLY MOCKS GOD.
DO "OSASERS" BELIEVE THAT THOSE WHO SOW TO PLEASE THE SPIRIT WILL REAP ETERNAL LIFE.? I DOUBT IT, BECAUSE NO ONE CAN SOW WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING. THEIR BELIEF IS THAT FAITH ALONE SAVES VOID OF WORKS.
CAN FAITH WITHOUT OBEDIENCE TO GOD SAVE THEM?
IS IT NOT DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD IF WE SOW TO PLEASE THE SINFUL NATURE? AND WHAT DO WE REAP FOR BEING DISOBEDIENT, IS IT NOT DESTRUCTION?
DOES OBEDIENCE THEN HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION?
WHY NOT TEACH OBEDIENCE AS WE ARE COMMANDED TO DO (matthew 28:18-20)RATHER THAN SAYING THAT OBEDIENCE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION.
IT IS CLEAR THAT GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT.(ephesians 5:6)
Galatians 6:7-10 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit
will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
Isaiah 5:20-24 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight. Woe to those who are heroes at drinking wine and champions at mixing drinks, who acquit the guilty for a bribe, but deny justice to the innocent. Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for THEY HAVE REJECTED THE LAW OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY AND SPURNED THE WORD OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.

The scripture that is used often is John 3:15. This choice passage, taken alone, can lead one to think that all they have to do is believe and they are OSAS. However, that is a short sighted approach to the bible, because almost every page in the bible tells us that there other factors that go into the process of having EL.

I just responded to a person that says, your gospel is a false gospel if you put conditions on having EL. I think he was joking, but I could not tell. EG actually tried to defend the position by telling us that God does it all from beginning to the end. We have nothing to do with our belief or our actions, they are all the works of God. I told him good luck with that Mr. Calvin.

OSAS can only be true if from the day you are saved, you forsake the flesh and walk in the spirit with God and Jesus. If you do that, your EL is assured.

I was resonding to a person who said that I believe in a false gospel because I have put conditions on EL.

So I responded and created these 4 conditions that must be followed to have EL, which he said we did not have to follow or our gospel would be false. So the first condition is according to this man, we do not even have to believe. You see that is a condition that I place on receiving EL. Apparently he does not.

So finally I said that if there are no conditions, we can murder as often as we wish. You see, I believe that if you murder, you will not have EL. Apparently this condition does not exist for many on this forum.

No ben thats not what I said at all
What I was trying to say was , that we are saved by believing , and trusting Jesus , his death burial and ressurection , believing that he died for all our sin and accepting the free gift he offers us

You however , add to that by all the things you say we must do after salvation which promotes a false gospel