Can no longer separate sex from sin

This is intriguing to me...

True to form, the premarital counseling sessions at my church included absolutely nothing about sex. In fact, now that I think about it, I have no idea exactly what WAS covered except for all the verses we've all heard about marriage a hundred times a year.

I certainly can't put any blame on those sessions for the breakup of the marriage, but I'm also left wondering exactly why they were considered necessary because they certainly weren't particularly useful.

Shoot, I'd sign up for the premarital counseling sessions at your guy's church even with no potential husband in sight, just to see what they were teaching (in contrast to growing up in a church that never seemed to want to talk about anything pertaining to real life.)

I got married at my wifes church, by her preacher. All he did was tell me to buy a $38 book from the church called 'intended for pleasure. '
It pretty much just said you are wrong unless you do things a certain way.

the problem isn't with sex, the problem is with people using sex to hurt others.

also, fire can be an extremely valuable tool if used properly.

i think that this sexual aversion stems from fear, and you are attempting to rationalize it with an argument that sounds halfway decent on the surface, but doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

the fear stems from lack of experience and lack of understanding concerning the subject at hand.

God bless!

I think folks are way too obsessed with what they believe the public opinion on sex is. I grew up with a grandma that considered everything and then some a sin. Luckily nobody paid no attention to her. And yes, she was some sort of Southern Baptist.

Of course, Southern Baptists was a major part of my upbringing, but at the same time, us youngins managed to see through the extremism some people tried to make a general rule.

I get a fair amount of where you're coming from. You've gotten a lot of good fact based advice, so I'm just going to throw out my two cents as another extremely inexperienced gal who wonders sometimes how that would play out if I ever did get into a relationship. And here's what I've learned and come to reason about me that might be useful to you:

1) I'm committed to obeying God, so there's not going to be any sex before marriage in my relationships. That also means there's going to be a good chunk of time (I expect at least a year) to get used to the idea of I'm going to marry this person and just kind of get myself mentally accustomed to the fact that sex is coming when the wedding night comes. So it's not going to be an overnight type of adaptation and it's going to be something there will be time to talk about and set and adjust expectations for with the only person it really matters to ( the future husband). And honestly there will probably be several intermediate conflicts of a similar nature like when to have the first kiss or how much cuddling etc so he'll be used to my being reserved and awkward about such things by the time the wedding night rolls around (if a relationship ever makes it that far). So I'm not going to stress myself out now trying to get my mind around how to cope with it all because I know I've got time and it's something that has to develop with a person.

2) I've found that for me the emotional closeness has to be in place and gives birth to the desire for physical closeness with a specific person (which is different from wishing you had someone to be close to). So as I connect with a guy emotionally, I become more open to and desirous of (if still awkward and nervous about) getting more physical. So again, I can't really like the idea of getting close to someone with just the idea of there being a someone or of the emotional component somehow already being in place, but extremely limited real life experience of guys I have gotten closer emotionally with than I probably should have leads me to think that if I'm ever in a relationship where feelings are reciprocated, it will be much easier when those feelings have a person to go along with them.

I'd also recommend the book Your single treasure as one of the best books (and one of the few that seem relevant for Christian singles over 25) I ever read about dealing with sexuality as a single Christian.

What we got was a worried look....

The vicar marrying us was concerned about our communication.

He was right.

You seem to be worried about "what ifs." I say forget that and focus on the now. Don't worry about the future. Focus on what you can do now to make life better.
Sex is not bad. God made it and for a very good reason.

I've read just about every book for single people and none of them were satisfying. Whether we admit it or not, married people will always have privileges in both the church and in society that single people simply do not have.

I have so little experience in relationships that I can't even tell when someone is flirting with me. I went to get my car fixed one time and one of the workers seemed overly friendly, but not in an inappropriate way. He left his number in my car. My sister said he was probably flirting with me, and I was like "Huh?"

Yes, it's embarrassing, but I've pretty much learned to live with it. Having never dated, I'm so used to being alone and relying on myself. Problem is, I can't relate to certain parts in Christian theology because of that.

Relationships, I've said, are a huge mystery to me, even more so with God. There are two reasons I simply do not get when it comes to this idea.

1. God is not someone I can see, hear, or touch. He and I are completely different by our very natures. I don't see how I'm supposed to have a relationship with a being who's nothing like me. It just does not appeal to me. No matter what pastors and theologians may say, God is not another human being.

2. Given that I'm just one of literally billions of people, I seriously wonder what's so special about me having a relationship with God. I'm glad God is a loving God. But when love like that is just available to everyone and anyone, it's not special, unique or compelling. It's a commodity. If there weren't a few companies that had a monopoly on diamonds, it wouldn't matter how beautiful they are or how different each one looks. They're all diamonds, and aside from the monopoly, they're otherwise worthless because there's so much of them.

I've had to share my parents, my siblings, and God. That's all really nice and all, but I'd like to be chosen for once. I want something that's mine and mine alone.

I have been single for too long. And having been married, I know the blessings and the curses of having sex. The memory of it and the longing for it is a struggle. We all agree sex outside marriage is sinful. But then you have the grey areas. Like masturbation, or just feeling pleasure by touching, watching movies or series with erotic scenes, having fantasies, talking sex with friends.... the grey areas become darker very quickly.

It is better to surrender your sexuality and your thoughts to the Lord. It will be a continous struggle but in prayers and through Christ it is possible. That said, I am looking forward to the day, God willing, I will be married. Sex is not a sin and a very beautiful way of expressing your feelings towards your loved one, connecting with him and just feel that you and him are one.

HistoryPrincess what you are expressing is a common sentiment. And when a mother has many children, none of them ever seem to get enough attention because she is only one mother.

"I know how it feels to be
Just another face in the crowd
To feel like a whisper
In a world that's much too loud"


The difference is God can focus on you specifically and personally, at the same time He is focusing on everybody else specifically and personally. Being one in a crowd of many doesn't make you insignificant with God. You don't have that kind of ability, I don't have it, but God can.

Like another song says, "He loves me like I was his only child."

Yes, but the fact is I'm still not. This life is all I know so I really can't envision heaven as this perfect utopia.

But like I said, I'm used to relying on myself. I only know love in meeting the obligations I have to my family. I've never really known love in any other way.

And before you say, "Well your relationship with God is the most intimate you can have!"

First off, like I said, I can see, hear, or touch him. He and I are completely different beings. That, and trying to communicate through the Bible is just a big turn off to me 'cause it feels like emails that are just words on a screen. There's a reason your dopamine levels go up a lot more when you're actually interacting with people.

"Well your relationship with God is the most intimate you can have!" is one of the stereotypical things Christians say. And while it is true, it means nothing to somebody who has not had that relationship.

I am not a stereotypical Christian though, and I was not going to use that line. =^.^=

And I do understand the comfort of self reliance. But after a while self reliance gets really cold and lonely.

my question is

what if for that moment you did not sin, yet you are being falsely accused of sinning, and that false accusation makes you feel bad, makes you believe that your inevitable sin will be guaranteed so, mind as well sin for relief to "vent it off your mind"

Here's how I see it...

In the old days people got married when they were still teenagers, so they didn't have to deal with years and years of temptation... Prolonging the wait while the body is still fertile is the problem. All the rules about abstaining from sex were needed for all the young men and women who were dealing with feelings of lust for the first time and were in danger of giving in to them and producing unwanted babies.... Now we have people who've been single for many years, so what was meant to be endured for a few years has become a grueling marathon. The scripture says it's better to marry than to burn with lust.... but what if marriage doesn't seem to be in the cards? Then what? Damned if you do.... damned if you don't... (if you do have sex, you are damned.... if you don't have sex, you must suffer)

HistoryPrincess, you have brought up a host of major topic that are each massive in and of themselves, but I just wanted to start by responding to your OP. Others have offered some really helpful thoughts along the lines of what I was thinking, but I thought I would piggyback off of those.

I do want to say first of all that I admire your self-awareness in knowing that you tend to see things black and white. I would just encourage you to continue exercising that muscle that allows you to see things in the gray area. It will help tremendously to be able to pinpoint where the line between good and bad lies.

In its own way, our culture is preaching sermons every day. Through movies, television, music, magazines, news outlets, etc. we hear sermons about sexuality--what it is, what is okay, what is not, etc. I think the biggest misconception about sex that our culture pushes on us is that it is a purely physical act. Our culture is also incredibly individualistic, which is not good once you get into the realm of sexual ethics and morality.
As has been said already, the church has not done a great job of teaching on this topic either as the emphasis has been so much on guilting and shaming people who do anything related to it outside of marriage.

I think the key here is to understand exactly what sex is. Sex was a gift given to us by God as a means of pleasure here on earth. It was God who gave us the parts and mechanisms that make sex and its pleasure possible. Sex existed before sin entered the world. There is a Hebrew world for sex called "dode" which literally translates to mean "a mingling of souls." Sex is not merely physical, but it encompasses the mind, emotions, etc. In the brain, sex triggers a powerful release of oxytocin, which causes a feeling of bonding between the two people involved, and dopamine, which is a pleasure chemical. When you understand just how closely the brain, mind, body, and soul are connected, and how powerful an effect sex can have either for better or for worse, you can see how, when it is exercised the way that God intended for us, it brings us great joy, but when it is made an idol, when it is practiced selfishly, or when it is used as a weapon against other people, it can powerfully wound as well.

Having sexual urges is a huge struggle for most of us who are single. It makes it even more difficult when our culture has become so influenced by an ethic of self-actualization and basically doing whatever it is you want to do, and we see so many images and hear so many references to sex all the time. We are encouraged to believe that waiting for marriage is rigid religious silliness while the church tells us that it will heap on us unrelinquishable shame. And so we are stuck in this tug-of-war that would have existed already without the additional voices being added to the picture.
I would just say to keep in mind that how connected the brain, mind, and body are. I think it is easy to believe that only orgasm will relieve our sexual urges, but that's just not true. As I said before, sex is more than just a physical act. It engages the brain, mind, and soul along with the body. There are ways to live a satisfying and fulfilling life without ever having an orgasm. Our culture does us a disservice by refusing to believe that. There are actually other means by with dopamine and oxytocin are relased by the brain. Dopamine can be released by exercise, eating, etc. Oxytocin can actually be released just by hugging a friend. Sex obviously isn't the only good gift God has given us. He has given us food, the ability to form close, edifying relationships, animals, nature, etc. Most importantly God has given us relationship with Himself where true fulfillment and satisfaction are found. This is the way He created us to be. I know you mentioned not being entirely settled with who God is or with Christian theological teaching on that matter, and hopefully I can address that at some point too.

Lastly, I just wanted to say that, in thinking about sex from a spiritual perspective, we have to keep in mind that Jesus always went to the heart of the matter in talking about sin. Everyone sins sexually in one way or another, and everyone is in need of God's love and grace. We are all in need of forgiveness in that area, and we can all know that we have been forgiven of past, present, and future sin in that area. God has redeemed us and is continually working in us to heal us of our brokenness in this area. There is no reason for further guilt and shame. I think looking at it with this lens gives us freedom to be honest about our sexual brokenness, to be more open about that and to talk about our struggles, and to be able to trust God knowing that He is not the enemy of our joy, but is for us and desires that we experience all of the gifts He has given to us in the fullness of joy with which He intended. And I think that allows us to trust Him in knowing that even if there are certain gifts we never get to experience, He will still always be enough for us.

I hope this was somewhat helpful at least.

Thank you for the lengthy reply. But let me say this.

I've been a Christian for seven years now. And during that time, I tried so hard nonstop to get closer to God and connect to others. But nothing ever worked. I can't relate to people or God the same way others can, not because I don't want to, but because I'm literally just not wired that way. Trying to make my brain think like everyone else's always backfires. It takes way too much mental energy. And after years of trying and trying and trying, and failing every time, I'm ready to throw in the towel. Not on my faith, but on ever getting the close relationships I want.

I've read a study that the part of the brain that's connected to spiritual things might be impaired with people on the spectrum. And I was like, "Okay, that explains everything." The cards have been stacked against me since the beginning. If God wanted a relationship with me, why make it ten times harder for me than the average person?

I've told God I honesty hate how he made me. I see absolutely no benefit to being on the spectrum. It's only brought me loneliness, pain, frustration, and the feeling of being less than human. I'm also the youngest of three and the only one still living with my parents, and no matter how much they say they love me, I believe them, but I feel like a burden to them.

I'm done with trying to make everyone in my life, including God, understand. I've been told I have a lot of anger, but you would to if you've been forced to be alone for years on end with no relief.

By the way, it's a lie that God can fulfill all your relationship needs. He made Eve for Adam before the Fall. But apparently God just wants me all to himself. And no matter what I do or how hard I try, I've never felt satisfied or fulfilled with him. So yes, I am angry with him.

I have to force myself now to go to church and bible study cause I never get anything out of them except a reminder that I don't belong. I only go to these things now to get out of the house and make my mom and dad happy. Other than that, these things are a chore.

But I do these chores because I love God and still have rules to follow and obligations to meet. That's the only way I've ever experienced love and probably the only experience of it I'll ever have.

History,

I gave you the "hearts" emoji in response to your post because there isn't one for a hug, and I would want to give you a hug.

I can relate to many of the things you're describing, including the anger, loneliness, and feeling that everyone tells us that God should be enough in our lives, but it sure doesn't feel that way.

I sympathize with everything you're expressing here, and am sorry I can't add much to the thoughtful posts many here have already shared.

As someone who can relate to your struggles, I will definitely pray for you.

Big hugs to you, and may God bless your honesty in seeking Him.

You know what's interesting? I actually have talked to a guy around our age on another forum who has echoed a lot of the same struggles that you are talking about here. He is on the spectrum as well and has talked about feeling frustrated and fed up with difficulty connecting to God and other people. I will readily admit that I cannot relate to your experience as much as I wish that I could. I have a general understanding for the obstacles that you face as far as connecting to other people, but that's the extent of it.

I am really sorry that things have been so difficult, and I wish there was something that I could do to help. I am curious to ask you if you feel like you have ever felt close relational connection with anyone? And if so, what are the things that make you feel closest to someone? Or what are the things that make you feel most loved and accepted?

I agree with you too that it's a lie that God can fulfill all of your relational needs. I think if that were the case He wouldn't have wired us to need each other so much. I do truly believe, though, that God knows you intimately, that He sees and understands your struggle, your pain, your frustration, etc., and that He cares deeply. I don't think we will ever have a satisfactory answer as to why God allows us to endure such struggles, but I do think we will find out one day. And I know it doesn't make today or tomorrow any easier, but I am thankful that we at least have heaven to look forward to where our bodies will be made new, we will have perfect, uninhibited relationship with Him and each other, and we won't have to endure these struggles any longer.

Yay, I'm gonna have to wait till I'm dead to get any relief. Besides, I'm not much looking forward to heaven anyway.

We all will. We are all in this together.