What must I do to be saved

I expected this to be your first argument. But anyway...


Esau didn't have to be a believer for the warning to be useful to us who do believe. We see that from this passage:


"1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. 13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

14Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15I speak as to wise men"-1 Corinthians 10:1-15


Remember, the point here is to show that the Bible does in fact use unbelievers who never believed to warn true believers who have. Paul uses unbelieving Israel to warn the church to not do what they did. So that destroys any attempt to insist the author of Hebrews can only be talking to people in the church who never believed.

And if you need still more convincing, consider how Adam is used as a type of Christ (Romans 5:14).

I say, let the bible be the ONLY authority. That is why it is important to back our statements up with book, chapter and verse. Gaining entrance into heaven by our works is a false doctrine and not the doctrine of Christ. Depending upon your good works to get you to heaven, is nothing but pride, which is at the top of God's list of the things he hates ( Pro 6:17 ). Those who depend upon their works say that believing, responding, confessing, accepting, repenting, etc, are not works. Anytime there is something man has to respond to to make the end result happen, it is works, and it makes man the savior of himself. Christ died on the cross as a sacrifice to God, for God's acceptance, not for man's acceptance. All of the people that he died on the cross for, will live in heaven, without the loss of even one ( John 6:38-40 ).

Agreed.


The doctrine of Christ, is what Christ Jesus taught to and through His Apostles.


The Apostles doctrine originated from Christ, and is what Christ taught.


Jesus Christ continued to teach through His Apostles the Truth, the Way and the Life, because the Spirit of Truth was in them to lead them and guide.


The New Testament scriptures reflect the doctrine of Christ.


Those who love the Truth, and walk in the Truth and speak the Truth and practice the Truth, hear His Voice.

• I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.

37 Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?” Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
John 18:37


again


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4



6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7



31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32



9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9




JPT

Rightly divide the word of truth ( 2 Tim 2:15 ). Even though we have been born again of the Spirit, we still carry the baggage of our fleshly nature which causes a warfare within us, the flesh against the Spirit ( Gal 5:17 ) God sometimes refers to his children as being "the wicked". The natural man, void of the Spirit does not fight this warfare. When God's children become wicket, he chastens them. God does not chasten the wicked that are not his children ( Psalms 73:5 ) They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they "PLAGUED" like other men. Plagued according to the Greek interpretation means "divinely punished". Those that God chastens he loves and those that he does not chasten, he hates ( Rev 3:19 ) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten, be zealous therefore, and repent.

Just because we have been born again, does not mean that our fleshly nature is not totally depraved. Before we were born again, we had but one nature, fleshly. ( 1 Cor 2:14 ) Now that we have been born again, we have two natures that war against each other, the flesh against the Spirit. ( Gal 5:17 ) When we yield to our fleshly nature, as we all do at times, we lose our fellowship with God during the times we are indulging in our fleshly nature. This does not mean that we lose our eternal destination. When we repent God accepts us back in fellowship with him. The scriptures you have quoted are warnings to his children.

My bible says they were "pricked", which also means pierced and also means "to pain the mind sharply, to agitate it vehemently, and especially of the motion of sorrow". These men that were pricked were not the natural man, void of the Spirit, as described in 1 Cor 2:14. They would not have been able to discern what Peter was preaching about. We can be saved (delivered) by being baptized, but not eternally, we,also, can be saved (delivered) by coming to a knowledge of the truth, but not eternally. The child of God will repent when he feels the burden of sin, but the natural man will not, because repenting involves being able to discern spiritual things,

Roger, Though we are born again, we do still carry the baggage of our fleshly nature that wars against our Spirit ( Rom 7:18-21 ) For I know that in me (that is in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing, for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not, For the good that I would I do not; but the evil which I would not, that I do. I find then a law, that , when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Pride is involved when men lift themselves up to being their own savior by performing good works.

I already showed right from the Hebrews 12 passage itself that the author is not excluding in any way that the person who rejects the birthright could have once believed. I don't need a preconceived belief to read and understand the passage to mean he is talking about, both, those who never believed and those who used to believe being like Esau.

Your claim is that it can only be about a person who never believed. And the only way you can make that claim is to insert the predetermination that only people who never believed to begin with can lose the birthright. You have to do that because there is nothing in the passage itself that supports that claim. I don't have to do that to make my claim.

I am not sure what "saved, but not eternally" means. Please explain; you make an inference from 1Cor. 2: 14 that does not appear to be supported by the text, the Scriptures indicate that they received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they repented and were baptized in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of sin. The text indicates that they were able to discern what Peter was preaching about and that they were still in a condition of sin.
God bless

So far I agree with your statement. However, I suspect that may change.


We will see.


9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


again


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



If someone does not have fellowship [communion; common union - intercourse] with Him, then by definition they have become lost.


James says it this way -


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save [l]a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner

Clear enough.




JPT

Before we draw conclusions, we need to list as many factors about coming to faith as we can identify.
faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom. 10: 17)
we believe with our heart. (Rom. 10: 9)
faith and love are commands of Christ. (1 John 3: 23)
faith is a work of God. (John 6: 29)
those that believe have been begotten by God and given the right to become His child. (John 1: 12, 13)
faith is a gift of God (Rom. 12: 3)
the first requirement in coming after Jesus is to deny self. (Matt. 16: 24)
we believe by the grace of God. (Acts 18: 27)
God opens our heats to respond to the message. (Acts 16: 14)
we are begotten by God to faith and more. (1 John 5: 1)
God reveals the truths which are the basis of our faith. (Matt. 16: 16, 17)
We are begotten by God to love. (1 John 3: 9)
God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. (James 4: 6)

Love: we are commanded to love; we are begotten to love, but we don't love merely by deciding to love; we love because he first love us. (1 John 4: 19)

Faith: we are commanded to believe; we are shown what to believe in the word but do we just decide to start believing by our own volition? We must deny self in coming after Jesus; God gives grace to the humble; God begets us to faith, love, hope, obedience, holiness, overcoming and not sinning and He gives us the right to become children of God; when we are called He opens our heart to respond; faith is a work of God; by His grace He gives us faith mingled with love and hope; as our heart receives these gifts we are motivated to obey the works of faith He has appointed to perfect our faith, not to merit righteousness. We are redeemed, justified and saved by a perfected faith, an obedient faith motivated by love.
God bless.

No, I don't need to show that Esau was a believer who became an ex-believer. My argument does not hinge on that premise. Your's does. I'm saying the passage applies to both those who never believed and those who stop believing. Only for your predetermined purpose does it hinge on that. YOU need that premise which is not contained in the passage, not me.

What I showed you is the author himself uses Esau, an unbeliever, to tell the believers he's talking to, to not forfeit their birthright as Esau did by being godless and immoral. That's the plain understanding of the passage all contained right in the passage and it goes completely against once saved always saved doctrine. That's why you have to read the passage with the predetermined conclusion that real believers can't forfeit their birthright, and so the author can not be talking about, or to real believers. You have to do that because the passage doesn't say that. You are the one who must make the plain words of the passage 'not really' mean what it says using a predetermined doctrine in order to defend that predetermined doctrine. That's called called 'circular reasoning'.

Yes, because that is what the author is plainly saying to the believers he is addressing.

Don't turn back to the world in unbelief. Keep believing. Don't forfeit the birthright like Esau did.

Got Questions
Fair Use

Question: "Where does faith come from?"

Answer: Faith is the avenue or the instrument God uses to bring salvation to His people. God gives faith because of His grace and mercy, because He loves us (Ephesians 4—5). Faith comes from God in the form of a gift (Ephesians 2:8).

A gift is not earned by some good deed or kind word, and it is not given because the giver expects a gift in return—under any of those conditions, a gift would not be a gift. The Bible emphasizes that faith is a gift because God deserves all of the glory for our salvation. If the receiver of faith could do anything whatsoever to deserve or earn the gift, that person would have every right to boast (Ephesians 2:9). But all such boasting is excluded (Romans 3:27). God wants Christians to understand they have done nothing to earn faith, it’s only because of what Christ did on the cross that God gives anyone faith (Ephesians 2:5, 16).

By knowing our saving faith comes from God alone, it should encourage Christians to “not think of yourself more highly than you ought,” but remember God decides the measure of faith each one receives (Romans 12:3). The apostle Paul gives an example of the godly humility believers should have when they contemplate their own faith: “Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 1:13–14). Paul understood faith in Christ was given to him because of God’s grace in spite of his own sinful life (1 Corinthians 4:7).

The Bible specifies the way, or the means, that God gives faith to people. “Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ” (Romans 10:17). It is the Word of God that produces faith. Someone could receive faith while hearing a sermon teaching the gospel, someone else by reading about Jesus in the Bible—any time the true gospel of Jesus is communicated, there is potential for faith. This is why it’s of paramount importance for believers everywhere to be obedient to the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16–20) and tell people what Christ has done for humanity. Faith is not the product of a preacher’s compelling presentation, his eloquence, or even his theological soundness—faith is given through the message about Jesus. This is the means God has chosen.

It is good for anyone who wants faith to ask for it. God freely gives what is good to all who ask (Luke 11:9–12), and it’s good to ask for an increase of faith (Luke 17:5; Mark 9:24). Jesus prayed for Peter’s faith to be strengthened (Luke 22:32). As with any gift from God, it is our responsibility to exercise the gift and not become complacent, lazy, or apathetic (Romans 12:1–2, 6–8). Christians can find comfort and peace of mind knowing their faith is from God, because He has said He will finish the good work He started (Philippians 1:6). God is the Author and the Perfecter of faith (Hebrews 12:2a; Romans 8:29–30).

Faith must be activated, or it remains dormant, dead and inactivate, in which it is unable to produce the intended divine result, which in our initial salvation is justification: justification by faith.


Everyone receives faith when they hear the Gospel.

It's those who obey the Gospel who are saved.


James explains -

• by works faith was made perfect

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:21-22

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac

The "works" James is describing is the work or action of obedience.


Not the works of the law
Not good works
Not works that earn a wage


The work here that James is referring to is the work of obedience.


Works = The effort obedience requires.


James says that faith without this corresponding action of obedience, is dormant; inactive.


Just like a body without the spirit is dead, so faith without this obedience is dead, and is unable to produce the intended divine result.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


So the component of the Gospel that activates the faith we receive by hearing the Gospel is for us to obey the Gospel.


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8

• on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

• the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

JPT

You assume your conjecture is true and base your conclusion on that belief.

The lesson taught in Heb 12:14-17 has nothing to do with "losing salvation". Not every record in Scripture is to be viewed as "watch out – you'll lose salvation if you're not careful".

The lesson in Heb 12 has to do with the root of bitterness springing up and trouble you (Heb 12:15) due to our failure to adhere to the instruction of God.

We can be very foolish and our foolishness lands us in a heap of trouble. As we are chastened by God and fellowship is reestablished and thereby have the peaceable fruit of righteousness restored, we still carry the remembrance of our foolishness in our memory. And sometimes, our foolishness can result in drastic changes to our lives which we have to live with for the rest of our days on this earth.

We can repent of our actions, be restored to fellowship with Father, but still have to live with the consequence of our actions. And I'm not talking about losing salvation. I'm talking about some foolishness we engage in that results in lifelong results.

This is just an example and I do not know of anyone this has happened to, and I hope/pray it is received as just an example:

How about a man or woman who is married and has an affair which results in a pregnancy? That is something someone has to live with for the rest of their life. That act of sin can affect a person for the rest of his/her life, as well as a child born under such circumstances, and extended families of all parties involved.


Now, go back and read Genesis 27. Isaac received the blessing of the birthright. When Esau went in to Isaac, he learned that Jacob had already received the blessing.

Esau then accused Jacob of taking away his birthright (when he knew full well he had sold it). He also accused Jacob of taking his blessing (Gen 27:36).

Esau then asked Isaac for a blessing, and Isaac did not reject him (Gen 27:39-40).

Please note also that God gave Esau the land of mount Seir (Deut 2:5).

So we see that this section of Scripture does not deal with God rejecting someone who is repentant, and the person somehow "loses" salvation. Heb 12 deals with consequences we must live with when we behave foolishly. We will live with the error of our ways, just like Esau had to live with the consequences after having sold his birthright.