Not By Works

Sorry bout that, I missed your comment question probably because I didn't say his Spirit will not strive with man but that his spirit would not always strive with man. i.e. Genesis 6:4

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

But let me guess, you believe that men have lived longer than 120 years in the flesh on earth?

How does "water baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation" sound a little like a little bit pregnant? If I leave out the word "absolutely" will you then understand plainly that I'm saying that it's not necessary for salvation?

You are absolutely wrong about that (and so are Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists) and not just a little bit wrong. You confuse the picture with the reality. Why do you rely on faulty human logic instead of Scripture to make your arguments?

There is no repentance without faith or faith without repentance in receiving salvation. Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin.

If you would have mentioned confession then you would have the Campbellite 5 step plan of salvation. Repentance and faith are both necessary for salvation. Water baptism is not necessary for salvation. Why don't you explain to us just how righteous a life we must live in order to be saved. Where do you draw the line and the sand and say that lived a righteous "enough" life so now the Lord will be able to save you? I don't think you realize it yet, but you have crossed the line into salvation by works.

Salvation is by grace through faith (and not by water baptism) under the old covenant and the new covenant.

So where does the Bible say that whoever is not water baptized will not be saved under the new covenant? If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We must properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine instead of distorting and perverting passages of scripture in an effort to patch together a works based false gospel

3340. metanoeó ►
if someone truely is born again

you cannot un-believe in your Father

I ask you if John the beloved and Jesus are false prophets/teachers, and respond to that by asking me if I even go to church????

What has that have to do with: do you think that John the beloved and Jesus Christ are false prophets/teachers?

You see, you accused me of following false teachers, and I responded that the scripture we were discussing, John 15:2 was written by John the beloved, as recorded as he heard it come from the mouth of Jesus. So to me, I am following Jesus and John the beloved, but you said I was following a false prophet/teacher.

Tell me if you believe John the beloved and Jesus are false prophets/teachers. And if you say: of course not, then you must believe John 15:2 and you must believe that OSAS is a faulty doctrine. What is it?

If there is anybody distorting and perverting John 15:2 it is the OSAS believers. It is straight forward otherwise.

Sorry, according to John 15:2, if a born again Christian does not produce fruit, they will not have EL. IOW they can go against the will of God, having the pure right to choose this direction and lose their salvation.

I am giving you a bible verse (John 15:2) recorded by John the beloved, spoken by Jesus Christ. Are they false teachers?

m...,

Human logic..... to make what point?

I don't ...I rely on scripture.

Do you need me to post scripture requiring baptism?

I remind you that the...no baptism required thinking....was not made of record in writings, speakings and the like , of significance, prior to the 1960's. Why? It is a new age religion thing making scripture confusing to some.

Zmouth, that is NOT MY POST. Either it is a hickup in program, or lets hope that someone is not impersonating me.

THAT IS NOT MY POST! Either it is a HICKUP in the Program, or heave forbid, that someone is impersonating ME.

I also think you are a little naive that people do not reject God for a multitude of reasons, even after they have been baptized with the spirit.

People reject God, and according to John 15:2 God rejects people who will not produce fruit for His kingdom.

No it DOES NOT. You have bought a lie about Christian Water Baptism.

HERE IS THE BAPTISM THAT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY:


1 Corinthians 12:13 (NLT2)
13 Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles, some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into one body by one Spirit, and we all share the same Spirit.


EVERY TRUE BELIEVER, even the thief on the Cross, has been IMMERSED INTO THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF CHRIST at the MOMENT the HOLY SPIRIT brings us to TRULY Believe in our HEART that JESUS IS LORD. Most people thin Belief is in the HEAD, in what lies between your ears. The Spiritual Man is a TERM that describes the HOLY SPIRIT has brought one from spirit death into ETERNAL Spiritual Life, birthing that human spirit, and IMMERSING it into the Spiritual Body of CHRIST. THAT IS THE BAPTISM THAT SAVES.

1 Peter 3:20 (KJV)
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


Christian Water Baptism is ONE of the first Steps in our CHRISTIAN WALK WITH CHRIST. That Public Identification with CHRIST is all it is, it does not SAVE. If you have NOT BEEN BORN AGAIN, and knowledge about Christ ONLY lies with in your Mind, you went INTO THE BAPTISTERY A DRY SINNER, AND CAME OUT A WET SINNER. Nothing else happened, which is the Public Identification with CHRIST. ONLY WHEN YOU HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN FIRST, is it a Public Identification with CHRIST.


People who where NEVER BAPTIZED BY WATER:

THIEF ON THE CROSS.

EVERY DEATH BED CONFESSION.

EVERY SEVERELY HANDICAP PEOPLE THAT ENDANGERS THEIR HEALTH.

EVERY INMATE IN THE SECURITY HOUSING UNIT (THE HOLE) IN A PRISON.

ALMOST ALL OF THE OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS.


Malachi 3:6 (ESV)
6 “For I the LORD do not change;
therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

Why have you not addressed the verses posted by VCO from Matthew?

Any chance you can answer the above?

I have asked you a few times but still cannot see a response.

It's not a trick question or one that is hook bait.

I'm genuinely interested to know your thoughts.

The "Security of the Believer", is not a faulty doctrine. Do Christians end up in hell if they do not produce fruit? That is illogical reasoning; because Jesus say's, "I shall lose 'none' of all the Father has given me." Fruit or good works are not the measuring stick of a True Believer, being "In Christ" is; even nonbelievers can produce good works.

The branches that do not produce fruit and are throw into the fire are nonbelievers destined for destruction. "There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," Rom8:1. To say otherwise is heretical and not supported by scripture; not one dear Christian will be sent to hell.

After your heavenly birth, being born again, true Christians will produce good works and abide in the vine.

Romans8:30
30And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.…

John6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John15:6
6) "If you do not remain in me", you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

So how was anyone saved under the OC?

That is the question I asked you.

So are you saying that the thief was saved by grace?
Is that how everyone was saved in OT?

So grace saved in the OT void of baptism.
In the NT grace only saves if we get baptised.
I'm focused here on baptism.

Given that the thief died on the cross as a result of criminal activity, which I would assume would have resulted in him breaking the Mosaic Law he is still saved.

So to me effectively you are saying "You will be saved by grace through faith but only if you get baptised"

Faith is not enough, you can have faith, repentance but die before you are baptised then you are not saved.

That's what I'm reading.

So why the change?

In the OT there was baptism or what was known as Ritual Cleansing washings.

They symbolised cleansing from guilt but sin yet sacrifices atoned for sin.
Such washings were for those in the believing community.

So John the Baptist arrives on the scene.
Preaching a baptism of repentance.
So it seems that given he is preaching baptism then baptism would have been known to the audience, the audience being Israel.
He preached baptism for the remission of sins.

In fact such preaching was not unusual in that day, in the ancient world. (From Jews for Jesus)

In this general time period, others also practiced a baptism of repentance. A portion of the Sibylline Oracles dated ca. 80 A.D.contains this passage:


Yet we find John saying

Matthew 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

So now John is talking about a different baptism.
Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

So Christian baptism is symbolic per Romans 6:3-5, Identification with Jesus death, burial and resurrection.

It is symbolic of passing through judgment into salvation per 1 Peter 3:18-22

Acts 11:16-17
16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Titus 3:5-7
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I see the self saved Cainologists still cannot comprehend the fact that sanctification is dual in usage.....as in positional and daily life.......

Your interpretation is VOID of the whole TRUTH. YOU have to READ IT in CONTEXT, and compare it to Other verses on the same subject to make sure your interpretation DOES NOT HAVE ERRORS IN IT.

HERE IS THE CONTEXT, and in it, YOU WILL SEE YOUR ERROR:

John 15:2-6 (ESV)
2 Every branch in me [.It is referring to all those claiming to be Christian, including Mat.7:21-23, not just only to those who are genuinely Born Again, and I will prove that.] that does not bear fruit He takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. {,IN HADES, WHICH WILL BECOME THE LAKE OF FIRE.}

IN THE CONTEXT, HE CLARIFIES THAT THOSE HE IS TALKING ABOUT, ARE ALL OF THOSE WHO CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIAN, NOTICE: VERSE 5. ONLY those who are ABIDING IN HIM, are the TRUE BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS. Therefore EVERY one who CALLS HIM LORD, is what VERSE 2 is Talking ABOUT. BUT NOTICE WHAT IS RECORDED IN MAT. 7:

Matthew 7:21-23 (ESV)
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’


THEY NEVER BOTHERED TO ESTABLISH THAT INNER, PERSONAL, LOVE RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS AS THEIR LORD, MEANING MASTER. THAT IS WHAT BORN AGAIN MEANS. SCRIPTURE WILL INTERPRET WERE HE SENDS THEM TOO, IF YOU WILL LEARN THE PROPER WAY TO LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET ITSELF, INSTEAD OF JUST YANKING A VERSE OUT OF CONTEXT, AND SAYING "I'M RIGHT, SEE". I HOPE AND PREY THAT THIS IS A POSITIVE LESSON FOR YOU, ABOUT YANKING A VERSE OUT OF CONTEXT. SO WHERE DOES HE SEND THEM TO?

Matthew 25:32-46 (HCSB)
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on His right and the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you took care of Me; I was in prison and you visited Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or without clothes and clothe You?
39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and visit You?’
40 “And the King will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’
41 Then He will also say to those on the left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels!
42 For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger and you didn’t take Me in; I was naked and you didn’t clothe Me, sick and in prison and you didn’t take care of Me.’
44 “Then they too will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or without clothes, or sick, or in prison, and not help You?’
45 “Then He will answer them, ‘I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me either.’
46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


I like to confirm everthing with 2 or 3 witnesses; therefore, I believe it is proper to insure that you have the proper Interpretation by finding 2 or 3 verses speaking on the same subject. NOT TAKE ONE VERSE OUT OF CONTEXT, like you did. So here is ONE MORE:


Matthew 3:10 (HCSB)
10 Even now the ax is ready to strike the root of the trees! Therefore, every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.


How about one more, just to be on the safe side:


Matthew 13:41-43 (NKJV)
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


Whether your Interpretation was a mistake in interpretation, or someone deliberately trying to lead Christians away from the TRUTH, I cannot tell. But, YOU KNOW, and GOD KNOWS; so I hope and pray you can come to repentance, and start using the tips I just presented to you on how to Properly Interpret Scripture in the Future. REMEMBER: Rule Number one is READ THE ENTIRE CONTEXT, and I suggest you need to validate it with 2 or 3 other verses. Your INTERPRETATION creates Contradictions, and where there appears to be a Contradiction, you have made an ERROR in Interpretation in one or both verses. There are NO CONTRADICTIONS IN MY BIBLE, how about yours?

WERE YOU SENT BY GOD?


Luke 6:43-45 A Tree and Its Fruit “No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. FOR OUT OF THE OVERFLOW OF HIS HEART , HIS MOUTH SPEAKS..


WHO ARE CLAIMING TO BE “STILL SINNERS” OUT OF THE OVERFLOW OF THEIR HEART???


John 3:34 For the one whom GOD HAS SENT speaks the words of God,

for God gives the Spirit without limit.




This thread and it’s author implies that there’s no need for works to a FAITH ALONE that SAVES(faith void of works).


SALVATION IS NOT BY WORKS IF IT’S APART FROM FAITH (eph 2:8-9) JUST AS FAITH ALONE APART FROM WORKS OF LOVE,OBEDIENCE AND FAITH IS DEAD (james 2:14-26)


IF WE ARE THE BODY OF CHRIST WHOM HE WILL SAVE (eph 5:23) AREN’T WE EXPECTED TO OBEY HIS COMMANDS (john 14:12-15)AND DO HIS WORKS OF SALVATION (1cor 3:9, 12:28 mat 25:21-30, 9:37-38 eph 4:12-13, rom 12: 3-8, 1 tim 4:16) AS WE ARE TO DO HIS WILL HERE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN (mat 6:10)


John 4:34-38 “My food,” said Jesus, “is TO DO THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME AND TO FINISH HIS WORK. Do you not say, ‘Four months more and then the harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now HE HARVESTS THE CROP FOR ETERNAL LIFE, so that the sower and the reaper may be GLAD TOGETHER. Thus the saying ‘One sows and another reaps’ is true. I SENT YOU to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and YOU HAVE REAPED THE BENEFITS OF THEIR LABOR.”


John 5:36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and WHICH I AM DOING, TESTIFIES that the Father has SENT me.


John 6:39-40 And this is the will of him who SENT me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and BELIEVES IN HIM, SHALL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and I will raise him up at the last day.”


John 7:18 HE WHO SPEAKS ON HIS OWN does so to gain honor for himself, but HE WHO WORKS FOR THE HONOR OF THE ONE WHO SENT HIM IS A MAN OF TRUTH; there is nothing false about him.


John 9:4-5 As long as it is day, WE MUST DO THE WORK OF HIM WHO SENT ME. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”


John 17:18 As you sent me into the world, I have SENT THEM into the world.


John 20:21-22 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I AM SENDING YOU.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.


Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and TEACHING THEM TO OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”


ONE SURE WAY TO RECOGNIZE THOSE WHO WERE NOT SENT ACCORDING TO THE VERSES ABOVE IS TO KNOW WHAT THEY DO.


DO THEY PREACH AGAINST THE WORKS THAT GOD HAS PREPARED IN ADVANCE FOR US TO DO BY SAYING THAT: “FAITH ALONE SAVES AND IT IS VOID OF WORKS.”?


DO THEY PREACH THAT; “WORKS ARE WORKS ARE WORKS.”?

THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S COMMANDMENTS CANNOT SAVE EVEN THOSE BELIEVERS WHO CONFESS WITH THEIR MOUTHS THAT JESUS IS LORD AND BELIEVE IN THEIR HEARTS THAT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.


DO THEY PREACH THAT SINCE THEY WERE ALREADY SAVED, THEY WILL ALWAYS BE SAVED REGARDLESS OF THEIR WILLFUL AND CONTINUOUS SINNING(manifested by their arguments against those who push for continuous faith and are against willful sinning).


DO THEY PROMOTE SIN BY SAYING THAT THOSE WHO ARE CLAIMING THAT THOSE BORN AGAIN IN THE SPIRIT IS A NEW CREATION AND THEREFORE MUST NOT SIN OR CEASE FROM SINNING, ARE LIARS ACCDG. TO 1JOHN 1:8 WHICH THEY LOVE TO QUOTE BUT REJECTING THE WHOLE TRUTH EXPRESSED IN THE BIBLE? WHICH ONLY PROVES THIS VERSES BELOW TO BE TRUE:


Romans 8:5-9 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds SET ON WHAT THE SPIRIT DESIRES. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. IT DOES NOT SUBMIT TO GOD’S LAW, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, HE DOES NOT BELONG TO CHRIST.


WOULD THE SPIRIT OF GOD DESIRE SIN?


Galatians 2:17-18 “If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes EVIDENT that we ourselves are SINNERS, does that mean that Christ PROMOTES SIN? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker.


Romans 6:15 What then? SHALL WE SIN because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!


1 Corinthians 6:17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is ONE WITH HIM IN SPIRIT.


John 16:13 But when he, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.


1 Corinthians 6:9-11,15-20 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. AND THAT IS WHAT SOME OF YOU WERE. But you were WASHED, you were SANCTIFIED, you were JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.


Galatians 6:7-8 DO NOT BE DECEIVED, GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.


1 John 2:3-6 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.


John 14:31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I DO EXACTLY WHAT .MY FATHER HAS COMMANDED ME. “Come now; let us leave.


Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were STILL SINNERS, Christ died for us.


Romans 6:21-23 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ASHAMED OF? Those things result in death! But NOW that you have been SET FREE FROM SIN and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to HOLINESS, and the result is ETERNAL LIFE. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD.


Romans 1:32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only CONTINUE TO DO these very things but also APPROVE of those who practice them.


John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.


Psalm 49:13-14 This is the fate of those who trust in themselves, and of THEIR FOLLOWERS, who APPROVE their sayings. Selah Like sheep they are destined for the grave, and death will feed on them. The upright will rule over them in the morning; their forms will decay in the grave, far from their princely mansions.


THEREFORE:


Romans 10:14-15 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? AND HOW CAN THEY PREACH UNLESS THEY ARE SENT? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”