Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
113
Thank you BillG for posting these words of wisdom; who can help us in times of trouble, God can.
"Faith Triumphs in Trouble:" Romans 5:1
5:1 Peace here is not a subjective feeling of peace. Rather, this peace is the state of being at peace instead of at war. The hostility between God and the believer has ceased. The believer has been reconciled to God.Romans 5:1-5
"Faith Triumphs in Trouble."

 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
113
Wow, more than 3424 pages and still debating the same topic! Must be an interesting subject!
Hi Papou, and welcome to Christianchat,com. This debate has been going on for more than 2000yrs. The question is; Are we saved by Gods grace alone, or are we saved by God's grace plus works. You are welcome anytime to voice your belief.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,749
3,980
113
Romans 5:1-5

Faith Triumphs in Trouble
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

5:1 Peace here is not a subjective feeling of peace. Rather, this peace is the state of being at peace instead of at war. The hostility between God and the believer has ceased. The believer has been reconciled to God.


5:1: we have peace: In many manuscripts, the underlying Greek verb is indicative, as translated here. A number of other manuscripts use the subjunctive instead (let us have peace). • Peace with God does not refer to a mere feeling of peacefulness but to a real situation of peace. It is the end of hostilities between God and sinful human beings when they believe in Jesus Christ and the state of blessing and salvation that God promised his people in the end (see Isa 9:6-7; 52:7; Ezek 34:25; Nah 1:15).
5:1: hpistis (4102) Rom 10:17
5:1: ieirēnē (1515) Rom 8:6


AMEN! THAT SAYS IT ALL, expecially this portion of SCRIPTURE:


Romans 5:1-5

Faith Triumphs in Trouble
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.


Let's see how the Works Righteousness bunch get around that Verse 1.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,749
3,980
113
Wow, more than 3424 pages and still debating the same topic! Must be an interesting subject!
We will let you off the hook, you do not have to actually read every page, to post here. ;)
Most of us believe in ETERNAL SALVATION here, and some are on the wrong side of fence.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
48
OSAS AND FAS ARE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES THAT PROMOTES DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD AND REJECTS AND NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS AND COMMANDS. (mark 7:6-13, Isaiah 5:20-24)



SO DO NOT LET ANYONE DECEIVE YOU...FOR THE WRATH OF GOD COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT.(Ephesians 5:6)



OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST WHO IS THE SOURCE OF ETERNAL LIFE FOR THOSE WHO OBEY HIM (Hebrews 5:8-9) SAID:



Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I HAVE NOT FOUND YOUR DEEDS COMPLETE in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have RECEIVED and HEARD ; OBEY IT and REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.



JESUS HAVE NOT FOUND THEIR DEEDS "COMPLETE" IN THE EYES OF GOD.



THEN HE TOLD THEM TO "OBEY" WHAT THEY RECEIVED AND HEARD AND TO REPENT.



JESUS WAS SPEAKING HERE TO ONE OF THE SEVEN CHURCHES AND WE KNOW THAT THE "CHURCH" IS THE BODY OF CHRIST WHOM HE WILL SAVE. (eph 5:23)



WHY WILL HE SAY THAT THEIR DEEDS ARE NOT COMPLETE IF WORKS ARE NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION AND THAT "FAITH ALONE" SAVES?



WHY WOULD JESUS COMMAND THEM TO OBEY AND REPENT IF IT
IS NO LONGER NECESSARY SINCE THEY ARE SAVED ETERNALLY? (OSAS)



IS JESUS IGNORANT OF THIS DOCTRINE OR IS IT CONTRARY TO HIS TEACHINGS AND COMMANDS AND THEREFORE ARE JUST FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINE THAT NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS?



JESUS AND HIS FATHER REQUIRE SOME WORKS TO BE COMPLETED AND ASKED FOR OBEDIENCE AND REPENTANCE.



Romans 8:4 in order that the righteous REQUIREMENTS of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.



Malachi 3:14 “You have said, ‘It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by CARRYING OUT HIS REQUIREMENTS and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty?



GOD REQUIRES OBEDIENCE AND REPENTANCE IN OUR PART OTHERWISE HIS WRATH WILL COME ON THOSE WHO ARE "DISOBEDIENT".(eph 5:6 )



Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?



John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.



2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.



DO NOT BE DECEIVED... GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED...WE REAP WHAT WE SOW...(Galatians 6:7-10)



NOW IF FAITH ALONE SAVES AND ONCE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS SAVED, DOES THIS PASSAGE BELOW CONTRADICT THESE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINE OR DO YOU REJECT IT OR TWIST IT TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE THAT WOULD FIT YOUR DOCTRINE?



Matthew 24:9-14 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time MANY WILL TURN AWAY FROM THE FAITH and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, THE LOVE OF MOST WILL GROW COLD, but HE WHO STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED . And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.



MANY WHO HAS FAITH WILL TURN AWAY FROM THEIR FAITH.



ARE THEY STILL SAVED AFTER TURNING AWAY FROM THEIR FAITH(ALONE)?



DO YOU MOCK GOD AND REJECT THESE VERSES BELOW?



Galatians 6:7-10 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature WILL REAP DESTRUCTION; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit WILL REAP ETERNAL LIFE. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.



James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD..

"LET GOD BE TRUE..." (Romans 3:3-4)
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,749
3,980
113
Papou said:
Wow, more than 3424 pages and still debating the same topic! Must be an interesting subject!

Hey, Papou, I recently had one that used to Ridicule OSAS, actually give me the Opportunity to explain what OSAS ACTUALLY MEANS, instead of just REITERATING what their false opinion about OSAS meant. I have to respect him for that, instead of repeating what their unlearned Teacher taught them about our Beliefs. I do not remember him replying to the Post, so I think it was way different than what he heard in his Church. The Post is on Page 3417 at the bottom, and is #68,340.
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
48
A WARNING FROM THE SCRIPTURES TO THE "OSAS" MANMADE DOCTRINE BELIEVERS.

The Sin and Doom of Ungodly People
3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, WHO PERVERT THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY and DENÝ Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding townsgave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. THEY SERVE AS AN EXAMPLE OF THOSE WHO SUFFER THE PUNISHMENT OF ETERNAL FIRE.

8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 Yet THESE PEOPLE SLANDER WHATEVER THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain,blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—TWICE DEAD.13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 THESE PEOPLE ARE GRUMBLERS AND FAULTFINDERS; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold.18 They said to you, “IN THE LAST TIMES THERE WILL BE SCOFFERS who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT.


26 AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.


6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things GOD'S WRATH COMES ON THOSE WHO ARE DISOBEDIENT.
 
Mar 14, 2011
72,948
16,170
113
Wow, more than 3424 pages and still debating the same topic! Must be an interesting subject!
Probably the most important subject one will study, did God save us completely? or does he need our help? and will God fail?

Is our faith in God, or our self,

The debate has been raging on since the fall
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,319
10,081
113
55
Probably the most important subject one will study, did God save us completely? or does he need our help? and will God fail?

Is our faith in God, or our self,

The debate has been raging on since the fall
Hebrews 7:25 - Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Jesus does not need us to "add our works" to His finished work of redemption in order to "help Him save us" (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

*Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers (Romans 3:22-28). *No supplements needed.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,358
113
Probably the most important subject one will study, did God save us completely? or does he need our help? and will God fail?

Is our faith in God, or our self,

The debate has been raging on since the fall
And from beginning men have been pushing works to get right with God, and he rejecred them...

Adam and Eve sewing fig leaves together <---REJECTED

Cain offering the works of his hands <-----rejected

Workers for = Cainologists......they too will be rejected and found under the "MANY" GROUPING.....PLENTEOUS IN NUMBER
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
Probably the most important subject one will study, did God save us completely? or does he need our help? and will God fail?

Is our faith in God, or our self,

The debate has been raging on since the fall
Wow!!

Did God save us or does He need our help?

Mankind doesn't "Help" God save them. Mankind either accepts His Salvation or they reject it, choosing instead to create their own way and their own Path as did Eve and the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time.

Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Was Jesus not able to gather these EG? Did He need their help? Or did they reject Him and His Instruction?

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Was God not able to save these EG, did He need their help? Did God fail them, or did they reject Him and the Path he ordained beforehand that they should "walk in them"?

Matt. 7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Was God not able to save these EG, did He need their help? Or did they show by their "Works" that they didn't believe in Him?

Matt. 13:
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do (Man's Work) iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Was God not able to save these EG, did He need their help? Or did they also reject God's Instruction?

The most important study a person will be involved in is the deception of the serpent that Jesus gave us the example of in the very beginning of HIS WORD.

This deceiver used parts of God's Word to deceive Eve. And what was the deception?

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

First it convinced Eve she was saved, already immortal in whatever state she was in.

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, (Reject God's instruction and lean on your own understanding) then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Second, it convinced Eve that God's instructions were "against her". That His instructions imprisoned her, and that to know the truth she must be "FREED" from God's Instructions.

Was Eve's Faith in God or herself? By her "works" we know her Faith was in herself.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

She not only rejected God's instruction, but she promoted this same rejection to others as it is to this day. Paul was worried about this very thing.

2 Cor. 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

No EG, God doesn't need our help, We need His?
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
And from beginning men have been pushing works to get right with God, and he rejecred them...

Adam and Eve sewing fig leaves together <---REJECTED

Cain offering the works of his hands <-----rejected

Workers for = Cainologists......they too will be rejected and found under the "MANY" GROUPING.....PLENTEOUS IN NUMBER
My Bible reads a little differently than yours Decon.

In my Bible It was the serpent, Not God, that convinced Eve to reject God's instructions.

Gen. 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (you are saved)
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

In my Bible both Cain and Abel offered "Works" to God.

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

Cain, like Eve, rejected the instructions of God. Is that what your Bible teaches?

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Abel offered works same as Cain. But Abel's "Works" were acceptable to Jesus. Isn't that what your Bible teaches?

Rom. 12:
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, (Like Abel and Abraham)which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to (the religions of) this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, (Like Abram ) that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

I know the serpent teaches that if I follow God's instructions, I won't be accepted by God. I know "MANY" are convinced of this very thing as was Eve. But I am going to stick with the Word which became Flesh on this one.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,835
3,770
113
Wow!!

Did God save us or does He need our help?

Mankind doesn't "Help" God save them. Mankind either accepts His Salvation or they reject it, choosing instead to create their own way and their own Path as did Eve and the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time.

Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Was Jesus not able to gather these EG? Did He need their help? Or did they reject Him and His Instruction?

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Was God not able to save these EG, did He need their help? Did God fail them, or did they reject Him and the Path he ordained beforehand that they should "walk in them"?

Matt. 7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Was God not able to save these EG, did He need their help? Or did they show by their "Works" that they didn't believe in Him?

Matt. 13:
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do (Man's Work) iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Was God not able to save these EG, did He need their help? Or did they also reject God's Instruction?

The most important study a person will be involved in is the deception of the serpent that Jesus gave us the example of in the very beginning of HIS WORD.

This deceiver used parts of God's Word to deceive Eve. And what was the deception?

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

First it convinced Eve she was saved, already immortal in whatever state she was in.

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, (Reject God's instruction and lean on your own understanding) then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Second, it convinced Eve that God's instructions were "against her". That His instructions imprisoned her, and that to know the truth she must be "FREED" from God's Instructions.

Was Eve's Faith in God or herself? By her "works" we know her Faith was in herself.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

She not only rejected God's instruction, but she promoted this same rejection to others as it is to this day. Paul was worried about this very thing.

2 Cor. 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

No EG, God doesn't need our help, We need His?
That's what EG is saying.

He does not need our help to us to save ourselves. He infact saved us and will keep us saved.

We cannot and will never ever ever be able to keep ourselves saved.

If we could then Jesus would have said so
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
That's what EG is saying.

He does not need our help to us to save ourselves. He infact saved us and will keep us saved.

We cannot and will never ever ever be able to keep ourselves saved.

If we could then Jesus would have said so
Hey Billy, good to hear from you. Hope all is well.

Thanks for the reply, but when have I or who has ever said God needs my help to Save Me? Is that what my post implies in your view?

Maybe you can address my post and show me where my post is off base. Maybe you can answer the questions I posed, and correct me on my understanding of the scriptures I posted.

Thanks Billy, I will wait for your reply:)
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,835
3,770
113
Hey Billy, good to hear from you. Hope all is well.

Thanks for the reply, but when have I or who has ever said God needs my help to Save Me? Is that what my post implies in your view?

Maybe you can address my post and show me where my post is off base. Maybe you can answer the questions I posed, and correct me on my understanding of the scriptures I posted.

Thanks Billy, I will wait for your reply:)
Hi Studyman,


Long time no hear as we say over here.

I hope all is well with you.

In answer to your questions concerning you.

To be honest at times your posts confuse me and at times I get what you are saying.

My response to your post to EG was in fact to me that you are both saying

We cannot save ourselves.

That's is.

God bless fella
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,639
1,808
113
Just stopping in to say hi to you all.

Good to see you all "enduring to the end" even in the face of opposition. ;) love you guys!
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
10,749
3,980
113
Just stopping in to say hi to you all.

Good to see you all "enduring to the end" even in the face of opposition. ;) love you guys!
Good to see you are still around. This thread may last until the Calling Out of the Bride happens.
 
P

pjharrison

Guest
Romans 12: 2, Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.
This means to transform our minds by the work of the Holy spirit, back to the way Adams mind was before he sinned.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
Probably the most important subject one will study, did God save us completely? or does he need our help? and will God fail?....[Quote]

e...,
Only non familarity with scripture would even think of asking this question;
after creation?
after sacrifice?
after raising from the dead?
after healing the lame?
When did He fail in scriptures?
etc.

Why would anyone think of G-d needing help? He doesn't even need help with witnessing...but, He asked that we do.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
113
e...,Only non familarity with scripture would even think of asking this question;
after creation?
after sacrifice?
after raising from the dead?
after healing the lame?
When did He fail in scriptures?
etc.

Why would anyone think of G-d needing help? He doesn't even need help with witnessing...but, He asked that we do.
The question was rhetorical, no further comment needed.