Does God love all mankind and does He wish to save everyone

I reject all of that as false doctrine, you have perverted the scriptures to make them comply with your false view. I gave you a hundred scriptures and you gave me four or five, I win because my view is supported 15 times more than yours.

Since you refuse to allow me to explain the meaning of scripture and force me to read it the way you see it, I win at you own game because we are not allowed to interpret scripture. In that case my view Trumps your 15 times over, winners are grinners thank you

I don't believe that individuals should privately interpret scripture. God has appointed shepherds to lead and teach us dumb sheep, so we should never appoint ourselves as Bible Theologians or Leaders. We are followers, we must follow our teachers or we will get lost and the hungry Lion is roaming around looking for lost sheep to devour.

We have too many sheep running around claiming to have broken the code of scripture, God only gave that ability to the shepherds. Yes us sheep are instructed to search the scriptures to see if the things we are taught are in the Bible, so if your teacher preaches something that's not in the Bible, then you need to find a Church where the Bible is being preached faithfully.

I gave you a 100 verses before, dealing with this issue of election vs free choice. The Bible is heavily in favor of election and those verses which seem to say otherwise, means that your interpretation is lacking and not the doctrine of predestination and election.

There are many great debates by experts on this subject at sermonaudio.com you can listen to both sides of the argument. there are far more learned people than us debating this issue, they have been debating for the past 500 years and they will continue long after we are gone.

Slayer said:

Yes us sheep are instructed to search the scriptures to see if the things we are taught are in the Bible

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Please provide Scripture which supports your claim that what was submitted in Post #360 is "false doctrine" and the Scriptures have been "perverted". Thank you.

Slayer said:

I gave you a 100 verses before, dealing with this issue

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Of the Scripture which you claim to have posted, please point out which verse or verses specifically refute the central point in Post #360. Thank you.

Slayer said:

that your interpretation is lacking and not the doctrine of predestination and election.

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Please explain how my "interpretation is lacking". And please use words other than "my pastor says" and "I gave you a 100 verse before". Thank you.

Slayer said:

There are many great debates by experts on this subject at sermonaudio.com you can listen to both sides of the argument. there are far more learned people than us debating this issue, they have been debating for the past 500 years and they will continue long after we are gone.

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Since, as you claim, these issues have been debated "for the past 500 years" and "far more learned people than us" are "debating this issue" and they "will continue long after we are gone" please explain why it is that the choice you have made is more valid than any other choice. Thank you.

Sorry I can't be bothered going back over all the previous posts searching for particular comments and providing scriptures for every comment, it's too time consuming. I will say this, I have studied the Gospel intensely for the past three and a half years and I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that my current view is the true Biblical view about how a person is saved.

I'm 100% sure that you have been deceived by the god of this world, that a person chooses to believe by their own volition. The Bible tells us that it has ZERO!!!! to do with the person and that a God causes the person to believe, and the person would never come to believe unless God causes him to. So the conclusion is ELECTION!!!!. it has nothing to do with the individual making his own choice to believe.

You can say what ever you like about it, I've heard all the accusations like God created us like robots and forces salvation on some and forces damnation on others. I'm OK with what ever you think as long as you admit that God is the One who makes the choice about who will be saved and who will be left in their sin.

Eph1:5 -

"having predestined us unto 'divine adoption of sons' by means of Jesus Christ unto Himself..."


['divine placement OF sons' ( huiothesian ) is not the same as what we normally think of when saying (like we say) "I adopted him AS my son/to be my son" (as in, a child outside the family I brought in to be a son in this family--not that idea, here)]

The Bible teaches otherwise so it's against your view.

You still need to debunk all of the verses below, before you can propagate your private interpretation.

How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts.
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.
– Ps 65:4
The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.
– Prov 16:4
And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
– Mt 24:31
now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
– Luke 18:7
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’
Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.
– Acts 15:17-18
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
– Romans 8:28- 30
Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
– Rom 8:33
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
– Romans 9:11
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
– Romans 9:15-16 (the whole chapter)
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
– Rom 11:2
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
– Romans 11:5-7
but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
– 1 Cor 2:7
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,…
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
– Ephesians 1:5,11
knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;
– 1 Thes 1:4
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
– 2 Thes 2:13
Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
– Titus 1:1
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
– 1 Peter 1:2
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
– Rev 13:8
Aren’t some of these so obvious??
Some that believe in free will may try to avoid proper hermanuetics when it comes to these verses to support what they believe, or they flat out just reject these verses. But it’s clear. And if all glory is to God and not to ourselves and if we were dead in sin before we were saved, how could we raise ourselves from the dead? To deny predestination you’d have to reject God Omniscience and that He even had a plan when He created the heavens and the earth. Thank God He has predestined us, because it is in our nature to reject God and if He didn’t seal us, we would fall away in a heart beat.
Be thankful for God, His Omniscience, and Grace to save you.

I would think of you more by explaining and not by complaining. What about expounding more of those relevant few verses on the issue at hand or else be also held liable of a private interpretation. What I know of private interpretation is private translation. So the charge may not be suitable in this respect.

I have explained our view on the few verses which seem to support the "free choice movement" many times. The "whosoever" are the elect of God, the "all" refers to all of the elect, "the world" means the whole elect world.

All of those passages were spoken and directed towards Gods people. Just read your Bible and you will see that they were all spoken to the Church or Disciples, it wasn't a general call to all people.

Not a surprise, you are not yet hone to discuss with a point and counterpoint on this matter. You cannot just simply say something subjective. “Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good” but as Paul did reasoned out of the scriptures and not just by putting many verses without understanding. I do understand your own dilemma but frankly you have never won the case.

Thanks anyway...

But the Bible tells us that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Yes we are born sinners but we are destined to become believers after we hear the Gospel. We believe when we hear it while those not chosen will not believe when they hear it.

You didn't say you raise yourself from the dead in those words, but what you said was to that effect whereby you will be quickened to life by choosing to believe. The Bible tells us that we were all born dead in our trespasses and sins, so dead people cannot come to life and believe.

I can't believe I have to waste time educating you on the very basics of the Bible. Little children at my Church know more than you, shame shame!!!! Of' course we are not born literally physically dead, we are born spiritually dead. We are born carnal and carnal people cannot receive spiritual things because spiritual things are foolishness to the carnal man.

You need to toss out everything you have learned and start again, because everything you have been taught is false. It's the doctrine of Demons!!! The Bible is clear, God chose His elect before the foundation of the world!!!

According to you we haven't won the case, but thank goodness you are???? I don't know who you are but I do know you are not the arbitrator and you are not the one who decides what is true and what is false.

Your view is worth 1 point, there are over 7 billion people in the world. They all have the same authority as you and they are worth 1 point each. So 1 view out of 7 billion will not convince anyone.

Let God be true and every man a liar, I believe you are a man and my Bible tells me men are liars

The issue at hand is, you claim that a person is saved by having faith in his faith and I'm saying that God saves us.

You need to deal with all of the scriptures which say that were were chosen before the foundation of the world. if you allowed the bible to interpret itself, you would arrive at the same belief as we have.

The Bible is clear, salvation is of the lord and not of free choice. I used to believe the same thing you do for many years and I defended my position vigorously but I came to believe the truth after diligently searching the scriptures.

Yes, but you Arminians always leave something for yourselves to boast about. You claim that you are so special that you were born with faith while the poor unbelievers weren't born that special, so you can boast how your faith saved you.

We believe that salvation is a gift from God, you only believe that grace is the gift but we believe the whole work of salvation is of God from start to finish and the only thing we contribute is a totally depraved sinful soul, which was born dead in sin.

How can a carnal man, who loves his sin decide to stop living his life of sin and lose it and suffer persecution for a Jew named Jesus who died 2000 years ago on a cross. The Gospel is foolishness to those who were not elected for salvation, before the foundation of the world.

Hi Slayer,
Alright, I am not the arbitrator here for your information but you entered in here a not one for one debate either, this I think is a BDF where we can discussed scriptures happily ever after. Yep, there are over 7 billion people in the world and your point view is 1 out of it. That would make this Stalemate!

Of course the Bible tells as in Romans 3:4 “ God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.” If this means me, it also means you. Another Stalemate!

Yet every man (generic either male or female) is a liar. Your guess is that I a man is true but the fact is when the Bible says “every man” may mean every male or female. Matthew 4:4 asserted this as saying “But he answered and said, It is written, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” This is no longer a stalemate, I won!

Ho, ho, claiming you/I won is a funny word I guess.

Moving forward…

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Let me interject if you may but you can by choice opt not to response...

Hmm, haven’t you considered being IN him. We are IN him before we are chosen for how one be chosen if one is not IN Him. To me this “choosing” is not FOR salvation, one has to be already IN him before we are chosen. If this is in reference to be destined to become believers before the foundation of the world it is apparent that YOU are not yet there before the foundation of the world!
Now what God has pre-ordained is his intention to saved mankind, it is what the “means” which is being predestined by God and what the MEANS God used “by Jesus Christ, by Christ blood” “at the cross” which is the redeeming act of God.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ (MEANS) to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, (MEANS) the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Moreover, in whom (Jesus Christ), we= saved believers already being predestined to obtain inheritance.
Ephesians 1:11 In whom (MEANS)also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

And how to be in HIM?

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

• Hear the word of truth ie the gospel.
• Trust/ believed the gospel truth