Not By Works
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The verse you use to verify your statement that the person who fell away was never truly saved, I believe you used it out of context.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They [the antichrists] went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Those who fall away because of SIN, EXPERIENCES, OR UNANSWERED PRAY, is not the same as a wolf in sheep's clothing, and neither is it in the same context in which the above verse was written.
Jesus said, you will know a person by the fruit they produce, as a good tree cannot produce bad or evil fruit, the same as a corrupt tree (ie, a tree that was good at one time and then went bad, like rot that started on a good apple), cannot produce good fruit.
That is what the above verse is about. It is not the same as the below verse, which I believe is how you meant it.
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mar 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground [in the heart]; who, when they have heard the word, immediately received [it's the same as, agreeing with and believing] it [the gospel for salvation] with gladness;
Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended [and then fell away from believing].
Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these [words/seeds] have no [deep] root [in the heart of the person], which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away [from believing the gospel they heard].
Many Christians believed the promises of God concerning healing at one time, but because they failed to obtain their healing or that of a loved one, they fell away.
Still saved, but fell away from believing the word they heard, which is part of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the work He wrought for us on the cross.
There was an atheist I spoke to who was at one time an ordained Baptist priest.
Both he and his wife fell away because of what he experienced.
The same reason why so many fall away from believing in healing.
He claims to have died 3 times and only saw blackness, and because of that, stopped believing there even what a God.
Again, not the same as a wolf in sheep's clothing.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:19 They [the antichrists] went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Those who fall away because of SIN, EXPERIENCES, OR UNANSWERED PRAY, is not the same as a wolf in sheep's clothing, and neither is it in the same context in which the above verse was written.
Jesus said, you will know a person by the fruit they produce, as a good tree cannot produce bad or evil fruit, the same as a corrupt tree (ie, a tree that was good at one time and then went bad, like rot that started on a good apple), cannot produce good fruit.
That is what the above verse is about. It is not the same as the below verse, which I believe is how you meant it.
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mar 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground [in the heart]; who, when they have heard the word, immediately received [it's the same as, agreeing with and believing] it [the gospel for salvation] with gladness;
Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended [and then fell away from believing].
Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these [words/seeds] have no [deep] root [in the heart of the person], which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away [from believing the gospel they heard].
Many Christians believed the promises of God concerning healing at one time, but because they failed to obtain their healing or that of a loved one, they fell away.
Still saved, but fell away from believing the word they heard, which is part of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the work He wrought for us on the cross.
There was an atheist I spoke to who was at one time an ordained Baptist priest.
Both he and his wife fell away because of what he experienced.
The same reason why so many fall away from believing in healing.
He claims to have died 3 times and only saw blackness, and because of that, stopped believing there even what a God.
Again, not the same as a wolf in sheep's clothing.
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A few problems with this thinking
1. 1 John 2 says anyone who is an antichrist never lost salvation they never had it
2. It then tells us who is the antichrist - those who deny Christ
3. It tells us also who are those who deny Christ (see chapter 3) as it says whoever commits sin has never seen or known God (ie all of your oints about being able to sin your way out of savation is refuted. As it says whoever lives in habitual life of sin has NEVER known God) ie, they deny christ, and thus, have never had salvation, it also says whoever is born of God CAN NOT FALL INTO SIN. (Ie, you cannot be saved, fall into sin, and lose salvation)
You can not lose what you do not have.
1. 1 John 2 says anyone who is an antichrist never lost salvation they never had it
2. It then tells us who is the antichrist - those who deny Christ
3. It tells us also who are those who deny Christ (see chapter 3) as it says whoever commits sin has never seen or known God (ie all of your oints about being able to sin your way out of savation is refuted. As it says whoever lives in habitual life of sin has NEVER known God) ie, they deny christ, and thus, have never had salvation, it also says whoever is born of God CAN NOT FALL INTO SIN. (Ie, you cannot be saved, fall into sin, and lose salvation)
You can not lose what you do not have.
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My wife, who is an intercessor, is led to intercede for others in prayer, resulting in many answered prayers, and because of how she presents herself to others, they in return treat her differently and start acting favorably towards her, and if they ask, she then talks to others about her faith in God.
She doesn't push, but waits on God to move in the person or persons.
Most of the time, my wife does not engage anyone, but prays for them without their knowing.
I would also question the person's motive and faith in the works they do.
Again, what kind of works are we talking about hear?
She doesn't push, but waits on God to move in the person or persons.
Most of the time, my wife does not engage anyone, but prays for them without their knowing.
I would also question the person's motive and faith in the works they do.
Again, what kind of works are we talking about hear?
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Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not [corresponding] works? can [his] faith save him?
That is, can simply believing without corresponding works save them?
And the answer is a resounding, NO.
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart [that which they confessed with their mouth] that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
That is, can simply believing without corresponding works save them?
And the answer is a resounding, NO.
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart [that which they confessed with their mouth] that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
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We are saved, unto good works, we are not saved by our good works; The bible clearly states our salvation is "Not By Works", which accordingly is the name of this thread. Our "works" are "evidence" that we are saved and our salvation is a "gift of God", and you cannot work for a gift otherwise it is no longer a gift.
If you are saved "by grace plus works" you are boasting in your works and boasting is not allowed. We are saved by grace plus nothing; works is the evidence of our salvation,
Romans 3:27
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.
Epheasian2:6-10
8) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9) not by works, so that no one can boast. 10) For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
If you are saved "by grace plus works" you are boasting in your works and boasting is not allowed. We are saved by grace plus nothing; works is the evidence of our salvation,
Romans 3:27
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.
Epheasian2:6-10
8) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9) not by works, so that no one can boast. 10) For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
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The Difference between a Prodigal and one who will Never COME BACK TO THE FATHER, is the Prodigal will ALWAYS COME BACK because of the GOOD SOIL IN THE HEART that the WORD was planted into. The ones with the THORNS or STONY SOIL, will NEVER COME BACK, because they NEVER HAD THE GOOD SOIL IN THEIR HEART, therefore THEY WERE NEVER BORN AGAIN.
People want to believe that the Parable about the Sower, Mat. 13:3-23 is talking about Three Types of Christians, but NO, it is talking about the FEW that find the NARROW GATE. And therefore the MANY are on the road that leads to destruction in hades/hell, Mat. 7:13-14. They had the WORD of GOD in their Minds, but NOT IN THEIR HEARTS, which is BORN AGAIN. And only Born Again Christians will make it to heaven.
One more example:
Hebrews 6:4-9 (HCSB)
4 For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit,
5 tasted God’s good word and the powers of the coming age,
6 and who have fallen away, because, to their own harm, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt.
7 For ground that has drunk the rain that has often fallen on it and that produces vegetation useful to those it is cultivated for receives a blessing from God.
8 But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and about to be cursed, and will be burned at the end.
9 Even though we are speaking this way, dear friends, in your case we are confident of the better things connected with salvation.
We have NOT JUST TASTED of the Holy Spirit, HE IS IN US, and the WORD IS IN OUR HEARTS. Do you the difference now?
That is why this VERSE is 100% TRUE.
1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.
People want to believe that the Parable about the Sower, Mat. 13:3-23 is talking about Three Types of Christians, but NO, it is talking about the FEW that find the NARROW GATE. And therefore the MANY are on the road that leads to destruction in hades/hell, Mat. 7:13-14. They had the WORD of GOD in their Minds, but NOT IN THEIR HEARTS, which is BORN AGAIN. And only Born Again Christians will make it to heaven.
One more example:
Hebrews 6:4-9 (HCSB)
4 For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit,
5 tasted God’s good word and the powers of the coming age,
6 and who have fallen away, because, to their own harm, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt.
7 For ground that has drunk the rain that has often fallen on it and that produces vegetation useful to those it is cultivated for receives a blessing from God.
8 But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and about to be cursed, and will be burned at the end.
9 Even though we are speaking this way, dear friends, in your case we are confident of the better things connected with salvation.
We have NOT JUST TASTED of the Holy Spirit, HE IS IN US, and the WORD IS IN OUR HEARTS. Do you the difference now?
That is why this VERSE is 100% TRUE.
1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.
The following is the epitome of those who peddle a works based Cainology or Law Keeping drivel....not only is it false, but it flies in the face of the word of God and the verbiage of the bible.....My bible teaches me thru John that WE CAN KNOW NOW.........what a tragic philosophy and false stance........
benhur said:
Some day we will know exactly how we get saved.
benhur said:
Some day we will know exactly how we get saved.
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The following quote it tragically false and carries NO HOPE and or FAITH....LIKE JOHN said....these things are written so that you may KNOW............not the drivel he is posting which is false.....
benhur said:
Some day we will know exactly how we get saved.
benhur said:
Some day we will know exactly how we get saved.
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AMEN bro.....and they fail to acknowledge the following truths to peddle their working for dogmas....
a. Chastening<---who and why it is employed by GOD
b. Believers having both works of gold, silver and precious stones and or wood hay and stubble
c. Believers like the Corinthian brother who was committing fornication
d. The fact the Hebrews who were made to wonder were not abandoned by God
e. David and his works of murder and adultery and the CHASTENING hand of the LORD refer to "a" above
f. The prodigal who remained a SON though out the whole process
g. ETC.
a. Chastening<---who and why it is employed by GOD
b. Believers having both works of gold, silver and precious stones and or wood hay and stubble
c. Believers like the Corinthian brother who was committing fornication
d. The fact the Hebrews who were made to wonder were not abandoned by God
e. David and his works of murder and adultery and the CHASTENING hand of the LORD refer to "a" above
f. The prodigal who remained a SON though out the whole process
g. ETC.
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My friend, it does not say this at all.
James is statng a fact. Belief alone does nto save (even demons believe)
It takes a living faith to be saved (a faith not even the demons have, if they did, well I think yuo get the picture) Living faith ALWAYS produces wors, So if you CLAIM to have faith, But have no works, You are decieved, because your faith is dead (you never had faith to begin with)
James is statng a fact. Belief alone does nto save (even demons believe)
It takes a living faith to be saved (a faith not even the demons have, if they did, well I think yuo get the picture) Living faith ALWAYS produces wors, So if you CLAIM to have faith, But have no works, You are decieved, because your faith is dead (you never had faith to begin with)
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