Predestination or free wiil.

1 Corinthians

2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?


The natural man in 1 Cor 2:14 does not have to refer to the person who is not born again as some insist.

The natural man referred to in 1 Cor 2:14 signifies the born again believer who is carnal and, in fact, this rendering fits the context of 1 Cor 1 – 3.

The word "natural" is the Greek word psyxikós and the word typically describes the natural ("lower") aspect of humanity, i.e. behavior that is "more of earth (carnality) than heaven."

When we read the first 3 chapters of 1 Corinthians, we see that Paul wrote to the church and pointed out the carnal behavior of the believers.

The church at Corinth was contentious (1 Cor 1:11). They were divided into factions because the believers followed men (1 Cor 3:3-4).

Paul commented that he could go no further in his teaching than the very basics of Christianity – Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:2) and he fed them with milk and not meat because they were not able to bear it (understand) (1 Cor 3:2).

Born again believers who are "carnal" and who behave like "natural man" cannot understand the wisdom of God in a mystery (1 Cor 2:7) which Paul taught to those who were perfect (1 Cor 2:6) ... not "perfect" as in no sin, but "perfect" as in full grown, adult, mature.

Paul was able to teach those believers who were no longer babes in Christ about the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory (1 Cor 2:7). Paul taught those who needed to be fed the milk of the word (1 Cor 3:1-2) about Jesus Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:2).

However, Paul was unable to teach the hidden wisdom to those who were carnal and who behaved in accordance with who they were in Adam.

That is the meaning of natural man as shown in 1 Cor 2:14.

Our faith can justify us here in time, but our faith can not justify us eternally.

Book Chapter and verse please.

I think when we discuss the scriptures that we should always reference book Chapter and verse, and I am sorry for not doing so. Justification by faith of Christ for eternity, Gal 2:16. Justification by faith of man for things here on earth.- The whole chapter of Hebrews 11.

*Blows trumpet* ALL CALVINISTS GATHER HERE!

I have a question! Its an ancient one, but how exactly do you explain:


1 Timothy 2:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

It specificially says there yup, pray for kings and those in authority so that we can live a peaceful life. Sure. No argument. BUT IT SAYS prayers made for ALL MEN, not JUST kings or all KINDS of men. Further on it says "Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN to be saved". This is just absolute devastation to calvinism.

Im seriously wondering HOW do you get around that verse while remaining true to the text? AN EXPLANATION is required i'd say. ! Someone explain that to me please. Im hoping its my good friend posthuman, he is a nice calvinist. BUT ALL ARE WELCOME to explain!

PS: The "who will have all men to be saved" cannot be thought to mean "All kinds of men" due to the fact that it doesnt SAY all kinds of men. That interpretation might fly in Geneva, but it doesnt fly with me!

Gal 2: 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

This says we were justified by Faith, because we have believed in the one Christ.

So why would you use a passage tht says we are justified when we trusted God, tosupport a view we were not justified by faith?

Evidently you are not using the KJV of bible. Some other versions have changed the little word "OF" to read "IN", taking Christ's faith away from him and giving it to man. We believe in Christ, that he justified us eternally.

Here is where you missed it. God has asked natural men to obey His laws. All the time dealing with ancient Israel, God was not offering salvation. They were physically God's people and they had to physically obey. Salvation as we know it wasn't on the table.

That said, God has always been open to people for salvation. Those that sought God with all their hearts and minds were promised to find Him.

Jer. 29:11-14a "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. And I will be found of you, saith the LORD:"

2 Ch. 15:2 "And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you."

Lol.

Are you sure your not John??

think, what your saying does not make sense. It goes against what was said, “even we who believe”

So when you see, “we have the faith OF Christ, even in we who believe.....” You have us having faith and us having faith, either way, It is our faith which justifies us.

Yeah, thats why the KJV is flawed in some areas..

*Blows trumpet* ALL CALVINISTS GATHER HERE!

I have a question! Its an ancient one, but how exactly do you explain:


1 Timothy 2:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

It specificially says there yup, pray for kings and those in authority so that we can live a peaceful life. Sure. No argument. BUT IT SAYS prayers made for ALL MEN, not JUST kings or all KINDS of men. Further on it says "Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN to be saved". This is just absolute devastation to calvinism.

Im seriously wondering HOW do you get around that verse while remaining true to the text? AN EXPLANATION is required i'd say. ! Someone explain that to me please. Im hoping its my good friend posthuman, he is a nice calvinist. BUT ALL ARE WELCOME to explain!

PS: The "who will have all men to be saved" cannot be thought to mean "All kinds of men" due to the fact that it doesnt SAY all kinds of men. That interpretation might fly in Geneva, but it doesnt fly with me!

If you would compare this verse, with what Paul stated when he prayed the Lord would take away that "thorn in his side" in 2nd Corinthians 2:7, as "the natural man?"

You might "see", that even Paul, as great a teacher as he was, or still is, for that matter, had "God's little fail safe" instilled within his "own" natural man!

In other words? It "harmonizes?" Just FINE!

By the way, The natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14 cannot come to the knowledge of the truth.

No, I do not believe this, and please, if your going to talk to me, stop with this JUNK type of response. It is nothing but a strawman.

Gods will is plain and simple. His will is whoever seees believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

John 6: For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

So you see, My will is not more powerful than Gods, It is in alignment with Gods will. If he did not will me to be saved, there woudl be no hope period. I would be lost before I was even born. I can not over rule Gods will. So again, Please stop with this nonsense argument




The fact is, Jesus died for justification. The forgiveness of all sin.

1. John knew who he came for. He called him the lamb of God who takes away the SIN OF THE WORLD
2. Jesus said he came tha ALL may have life.
3. Jesus said numerous times, he came and was sent, so that ALL WHO BELIEVE will have eternal life (meaning anyone)
4. As paul said, He is is the propotiation, who made propitiation for not only our (Believers) sins, but the sins of the whole world.

Yes, Jesus said he would not lose even one. But who will he not lose? THOSE WHO SEE AND BELIEVE.

You can not leave FAITH out of the equation. We are justified by faith period.

Just common sense will tell you that if it was God's desire that all mankind would obey him and come to him and be saved eternally, and he had the power to save them even if they did not say yes, save me, that if he loved them, then he would take them anyway. I don't know if you have children, but if you do. If a pack of pit bull dogs were attacking your three children out in your front yard and you were calling them to come into the safety of your house and one of them refused to come because he was too scared, would you just stand there and let the dogs kill him, or go and save him? Can you see how unreasonable that sounds.

I have already stated it, but will repeat, The regenerated man can justify himself by his faith in matters here on earth, but man's faith cannot justify him eternally. That is why I referenced he 11th chapter of Hebrews.

Just common sense will tell you that if it was God's desire that all mankind would obey him and come to him and be saved eternally, and he had the power to save them even if they did not say yes, save me, that if he loved them, then he would take them anyway. I don't know if you have children, but if you do. If a pack of pit bull dogs were attacking your three children out in your front yard and you were calling them to come into the safety of your house and one of them refused to come because he was too scared, would you just stand there and let the dogs kill him, or go and save him? Can you see how unreasonable that sounds.

Just common sense will tell you that if it was God's desire that all mankind would obey him and come to him and be saved eternally, and he had the power to save them even if they did not say yes, save me, that if he loved them, then he would take them anyway. I don't know if you have children, but if you do. If a pack of pit bull dogs were attacking your three children out in your front yard and you were calling them to come into the safety of your house and one of them refused to come because he was too scared, would you just stand there and let the dogs kill him, or go and save him? Can you see how unreasonable that sounds.

This is just my thoughts, but i believe is Predestination for God, because God knows everything that was and is going to happen, but for us is free will because we are currently living in the present and do not know the future, but being completely honest, i'm not sure if is that clear. I myself do not know this perfectly, so i just leave it as part of the mysteries that will be reveal on God's perfect time.