Predestination or free wiil.

[Hevosmies]

*Blows trumpet* ALL CALVINISTS GATHER HERE!

I have a question! Its an ancient one, but how exactly do you explain:


1 Timothy 2:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

It specificially says there yup, pray for kings and those in authority so that we can live a peaceful life. Sure. No argument. BUT IT SAYS prayers made for ALL MEN, not JUST kings or all KINDS of men. Further on it says "Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN to be saved". This is just absolute devastation to calvinism.

Im seriously wondering HOW do you get around that verse while remaining true to the text? AN EXPLANATION is required i'd say. ! Someone explain that to me please. Im hoping its my good friend posthuman, he is a nice calvinist. BUT ALL ARE WELCOME to explain!

PS: The "who will have all men to be saved" cannot be thought to mean "All kinds of men" due to the fact that it doesnt SAY all kinds of men. That interpretation might fly in Geneva, but it doesnt fly with me!

 

[preston39]

That does not sound right to me, how about a specific scripture.

It is contained in the intent of the book.

 

[preston39]

You do not understad.

It is not that they do not have free will, It is that they would never think of such a thing.

You can’t be touched by God, Born again, Adopted as a son, Forgiven all you have ever done, united with Christ, see how sinful and deserving of hell you really are. Be chastened By God himself when you have done wrong, have your thinking changed from self centered to Christ centered, have his word opened up to you so you understand, (I have just touched on the many things God gives an adopted child the moment they are saved) Then all of a sudden say you know what? I do not believe this nonsense of Jesus and the cross anymore. He did not die for my sins, he is not even real.

Maybe you think they can? In this case, I would just wonder what reasoning....

I conclude you mean...born again. We are not..... saved.... until G-d passes judgement on us after death and awards eternal salvation.

 

[JaumeJ]

*Blows trumpet* ALL CALVINISTS GATHER HERE!

I have a question! Its an ancient one, but how exactly do you explain:


1 Timothy 2:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

It specificially says there yup, pray for kings and those in authority so that we can live a peaceful life. Sure. No argument. BUT IT SAYS prayers made for ALL MEN, not JUST kings or all KINDS of men. Further on it says "Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN to be saved". This is just absolute devastation to calvinism.

Im seriously wondering HOW do you get around that verse while remaining true to the text? AN EXPLANATION is required i'd say. ! Someone explain that to me please. Im hoping its my good friend posthuman, he is a nice calvinist. BUT ALL ARE WELCOME to explain!

PS: The "who will have all men to be saved" cannot be thought to mean "All kinds of men" due to the fact that it doesnt SAY all kinds of men. That interpretation might fly in Geneva, but it doesnt fly with me!

These selections are quite specific and are easily coordinated with the Lor'd's words, we are to love our enemies and pray for them...……...now this does not say all men, but why would we ever not love those who are our friends or at least not our enemies?

As for praying for those in authority and kings, this does not interpret as being in agreement with all, especially when they prove to be antChrist. There are many leaders today who seem to be serving Baal and not God, they need our prayers desperately.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Eph 2: 8 tells us how eph 2: 5 is accomplished in an induciduals life

For it is by GRACE you HAVE BEEN saved BY FAITH..

God does not just chose to save people. If he did, he would be a respecter of persons. And give selective favors..

it would be like a parent who has chldren, all whom are evil kids. And choses to saved 2 of them, while allowing the other 2 to burn.

No parent would do this. They would do whatever they could to save al 4 of them!

If you are determined that God wants to save all mankind because he is a good parent, then why does he let his children disrespect him and tell him "NO"? If my child told me "NO" I would chasten him and that is the same way God does his children. The thing that you do not understand is that all of mankind is not his children. My dad chastened me when my neighbor and I did something wrong, but he did not chasten my neighbor's son, because it was not his child. Rev 3:19 - As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous therefore and repent. If there are some that he does not chasten, would that be that he does not love them, and they are not his children? Ps 73:5 (talking about the wicked) They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they PLAGUED (Greek definition- divinely punished) like other men. Romans 9:13-16 - As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of that willeth, nor of him that runneth (trying to save themselves by their works), but of God that sheweth mercy. God judges his children, by chastening, while they live here on earth, and does not chasten the wicked until the last day.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yep. And he will not just give it to you. He wishes you to desire his salvation. Thats what a loving creator does. He gives openly ad willingly. But does not force anyone to do anythign against their will

Yes, I understand that you believe man's will is more powerful than God's will. The fact is, according to the scriptures, that Jesus did not die on the cross "to offer" sanctification, but in Gal 2:16 the word is "sanctified"(past tense), not future tense! Jesus died for all that his Father gave him and everyone that he died for will live with him in heaven, without the lose of even one. So he says in John 6:39.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you are determined that God wants to save all mankind because he is a good parent, then why does he let his children disrespect him and tell him "NO"?

Because if he did not, He would make men robots. Non thinking souls. Who are totally unable to appreciate what God has to offer

If my child told me "NO" I would chasten him and that is the same way God does his children.

Yes he does. But if you are not born again, you are not his child. In fact God calls you illegitament and not true sons. You have to desire to be a son before God will treat you like a son..

The thing that you do not understand is that all of mankind is not his children. My dad chastened me when my neighbor and I did something wrong, but he did not chasten my neighbor's son, because it was not his child. Rev 3:19 - As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous therefore and repent. If there are some that he does not chasten, would that be that he does not love them, and they are not his children? Ps 73:5 (talking about the wicked) They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they PLAGUED (Greek definition- divinely punished) like other men. Romans 9:13-16 - As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of that willeth, nor of him that runneth (trying to save themselves by their works), but of God that sheweth mercy. God judges his children, by chastening, while they live here on earth, and does not chasten the wicked until the last day.

1. As you saw in my last comments, I do understand, and I accept your appology for assuming you understood what I think or know. And making this error in judgment

2. Rom 9 is speaking of God chosing Israel. It is not about God picking and chosing who he plans to save and who he will not save based on favoritism (you can deny that is what it is all you want, the fact he favorits one person and gives him the greatest gift of all time, and does not favor the other one and allows him to die in his sin with NO HOPE of ever coming to his salvation, is favoritism) if you would like to discuss the non fatalistic view of romans 9 I would be more than happy. But in anoter thread please.

3. The wicked, that was you and me, Until we came to faith. But God did not force it on us, He offered it to us. He will nt force his love on anyone, he proved that in the garden when he ALLOWED adam and Eve of their free will to reject him and chose to serve self (sin).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Eph 2: 8 tells us how eph 2: 5 is accomplished in an induciduals life

For it is by GRACE you HAVE BEEN saved BY FAITH..

God does not just chose to save people. If he did, he would be a respecter of persons. And give selective favors..

it would be like a parent who has chldren, all whom are evil kids. And choses to saved 2 of them, while allowing the other 2 to burn.

No parent would do this. They would do whatever they could to save al 4 of them!

We are saved eternally by Christ's faith, not our faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, I understand that you believe man's will is more powerful than God's will.

No, I do not believe this, and please, if your going to talk to me, stop with this JUNK type of response. It is nothing but a strawman.

Gods will is plain and simple. His will is whoever seees believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

John 6: For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

So you see, My will is not more powerful than Gods, It is in alignment with Gods will. If he did not will me to be saved, there woudl be no hope period. I would be lost before I was even born. I can not over rule Gods will. So again, Please stop with this nonsense argument

The fact is, according to the scriptures, that Jesus did not die on the cross "to offer" sanctification, but in Gal 2:16 the word is "sanctified"(past tense), not future tense! Jesus died for all that his Father gave him and everyone that he died for will live with him in heaven, without the lose of even one. So he says in John 6:39.

The fact is, Jesus died for justification. The forgiveness of all sin.

1. John knew who he came for. He called him the lamb of God who takes away the SIN OF THE WORLD
2. Jesus said he came tha ALL may have life.
3. Jesus said numerous times, he came and was sent, so that ALL WHO BELIEVE will have eternal life (meaning anyone)
4. As paul said, He is is the propotiation, who made propitiation for not only our (Believers) sins, but the sins of the whole world.

Yes, Jesus said he would not lose even one. But who will he not lose? THOSE WHO SEE AND BELIEVE.

You can not leave FAITH out of the equation. We are justified by faith period.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are saved eternally by Christ's faith, not our faith.

No. I see you have been hanging around John to much, While Christs faith in God in going to the cross was the means of my salvation, My justification and salvation is based on MY FAITH IN GOD.

 

[dcontroversal]

I conclude you mean...born again. We are not..... saved.... until G-d passes judgement on us after death and awards eternal salvation.

No offence, but you obviously reject or do not understand verb tense.....and the fact that salvation is a current possession at the moment of belief and is spoken of in ALL three tenses in the bible.....

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Because if he did not, He would make men robots. Non thinking souls. Who are totally unable to appreciate what God has to offer


Yes he does. But if you are not born again, you are not his child. In fact God calls you illegitament and not true sons. You have to desire to be a son before God will treat you like a son..



1. As you saw in my last comments, I do understand, and I accept your appology for assuming you understood what I think or know. And making this error in judgment

2. Rom 9 is speaking of God chosing Israel. It is not about God picking and chosing who he plans to save and who he will not save based on favoritism (you can deny that is what it is all you want, the fact he favorits one person and gives him the greatest gift of all time, and does not favor the other one and allows him to die in his sin with NO HOPE of ever coming to his salvation, is favoritism) if you would like to discuss the non fatalistic view of romans 9 I would be more than happy. But in anoter thread please.

3. The wicked, that was you and me, Until we came to faith. But God did not force it on us, He offered it to us. He will nt force his love on anyone, he proved that in the garden when he ALLOWED adam and Eve of their free will to reject him and chose to serve self (sin).

I would assume that you believe that all scriptures must agree with each other, if so, where do you see that man had a part in allowing God to regenerate him, in Eph 2:5, when he was yet DEAD (having no spiritual life) in sins? God has given man a free will as to how man wants to live his life here on earth, but not in his eternal life, that is by God's grace, and if he has to have man's consent, then it is not by grace.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No. I see you have been hanging around John to much, While Christs faith in God in going to the cross was the means of my salvation, My justification and salvation is based on MY FAITH IN GOD.

We can justify ourselves by our faith for things here on earth, but not for eternal life. Your faith is not the cause of your eternal salvation, otherwise, eternal salvation would not be by God's grace, without the help of man.

 

[JaumeJ]

Faith is given each of us by the Father…………..Our Salvation is from the Father through the faith He is bestowed upon all who believe Jesus christ...…...No one may ransom his soul for we are only saved byu the sacrifice of Jesus..

 

[ForestGreenCook]

We are justified by faith, In a court of law. A person who is justified is saved from punishment from the crimes he was charged with.

We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH

Either way, Faith is a means of salvation. Why do you deny it?

Salvation is "a deliverance-Greek" and we can be delivered here in this world by our faith in Jesus, but not eternally. We are eternally saved through CHRIST'S faith, not our faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I would assume that you believe that all scriptures must agree with each other, if so, where do you see that man had a part in allowing God to regenerate him, in Eph 2:5, when he was yet DEAD (having no spiritual life) in sins? God has given man a free will as to how man wants to live his life here on earth, but not in his eternal life, that is by God's grace, and if he has to have man's consent, then it is not by grace.

Lol, If I am in the ocean and drowning, and someone comes and rescues me, because I had faith he could do it and allowed hm to do all the work. I did not have a part in saving myself. I did not do anything, the person who saved me did all the work. I can not boast in saving myself. I can not take credit, i had no hand in my salvation.

ALL I DID WAS TRUST THE PERSON TO SAVE ME, AND ALLOWED HIM TO DO THE WORK.

What part of this do you not understand?

What also gets me, is how you think a person who is DEAD IN SIN, can be regenerated WITHOUT being justified first. You have them being regenerated IN SIN. which is agains tthe word of God.

 

[JaumeJ]

Big ccircle forming...…...i will not bite. God bless you...…..keep working

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We can justify ourselves by our faith for things here on earth, but not for eternal life. Your faith is not the cause of your eternal salvation, otherwise, eternal salvation would not be by God's grace, without the help of man.

I can not justify myself by faith in self. on earth or not.

Jesus said we recieve eternal life based on our faith, Paul said I was saved by grace THROUGH faith.

My faith in not my work, I can not boast in it. why do you think I can? I can only boast in my faith if my faith is in MYSELF and MY WORKS.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Salvation is "a deliverance-Greek" and we can be delivered here in this world by our faith in Jesus, but not eternally. We are eternally saved through CHRIST'S faith, not our faith.

You do not get it,

For by grace THROUGH FAITH

Whoever BELIEVES has eternal life - (it is only given to hose who have faith)

are we reading 2 different bibles?

Can I ask you a question, You claim your not calvinist, yet you use their same arguments. So how can you continue to deny you are calvinist?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Apart from justification. This would never happen.

We are justified by faith.

Our faith can justify us here in time, but our faith can not justify us eternally.