Predestination or free wiil.

Our sins are not merely covered, but washed away. They are not there anymore! Amen. There is no place in God nor heaven for sin or the even the remembrance of sin.

You are continuing not to understand what I teach, otherwise you would not say things like, "you do not teach the security found in Christ." Eternal security is found in Christ through the seal of His Holy Spirit He has placed within every believer. One must hear the gospel, believe the gospel, and then be sealed for the day of redemption, our future glory. Amen.

To me this verse do not sa that election is oN random basis.

Back to John 3:16

Election base oN believe oN His Son or not.

Hey Jackson. I can see from your profile that you are from Indonesia.

Can I ask you what is the MAJORITY view on end-times in Indonesian christian churches? Is it pre-trib rapture? Post-trib rapture? Do they believe in the literal millennium, or are they amillennial?
Just asking out of interest to see what things are like outside of the western world. God bless you Jackson

Yes I am from Indonesia. Most people that I know believe in Pre tribulation. But I believe post trib. I believe literal millenium and most people in Indonesia that I know believe in literal millenium.

Have you ever thought of both? A pre-trib rapture of the body of Christ, and a post trib rapture of the Jewish saints who endured? Just a thought...

Thanks alot. Why do you believe in post-trib and others dont?
I believe teh teaching was spread there by american missionaries?

This sounds good, but Matthew 24 is written to believers in Christ, not unbelievers. Jesus was speaking to His disciples, not Christ rejecting Israel.

We know we know, it says pray that it doesnt happen on the sabbath, abomination of desolation. ALL that yes we know. BUT it does not change the fact that it was spoken to the Disciples of Jesus! Jesus wasnt out there saying that to the pharisees!

I believe if it could be shown that it is speaking to a different group, the entire world would be locked in on the pre-trib rapture.

No Christians are present in Matthew 24-25. The disciples didn't even know about the death, burial and resurrection until after it happened. Matthew 24-25 is a Jewish passage concerning the Jewish Messiah's 2nd advent not the rapture of the church which was in mystery form at this time.

23:37-39 Notice! the subject is Jerusalem, the house is left desolate, because the Builder of the House is deserting it (Hos. 3:1-6) and He will not return until the restoration and conversion of Israel.

24:13 The verse has been misapplied by every group that ever came along that wants to control it followers.

NOTICE:
[1]. No one's life is being discussed, (vs. 14).
[2]. It is the end of a time period, not an individual's life, (vs. 14).
[3]. There are no Christians present, (24:3).
[4]. The land being discussed is Palestine, (24:16).
[5]. The audience addressed are Jews, (vs. 1-3).
[6]. They are observing Old Testament Law then, (25:15-20).
[7]. They are worshipping in a temple in Jerusalem, (24:15; 2 Thess. 2).
[8]. They are physical, not spiritual Jews as in (Rom. 2:29).
[9]. The Christian already has the promise that he will endure to the end if that is what is under discussion, (1 Cor. 1:7,8).
[10]. The 2nd Coming follows the "end" in this passage, and not the Death of the believer, (24:14,21,29). So the passage is plainly a reference to a law-abiding Jew in Palestine immediately preceding the 2nd Advent.

No I never think about that

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Most people believe Pre trib, Yes the teaching mostly come from america. But I read about post trib and to me It is more biblical than pretrib.

Would you say then that only part of the body of Christ will be going through the tribulation and will have to endure to the end?

If you read about the tribulation time in Daniel you will see there are people with understanding who will help others. They will be scattered, and they will be overcome by the Beast.

I believe some Christian Will go to persecution.

Rev 13

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

I believe this verse happen during tribulation. And It always happen, some Christian in middle east experience persecution, but not in america, or canada.

Scripture proves scripture; consider the limited abilities of the natural man, void of the Spirit, described in 1 Cor 2:14 compared to Romans 10. The natural man cannot discern spiritual things, and therefore, would not have "a zeal of a spiritual God". Saved, according to Strong's means "a deliverance". There is a deliverance (salvation) here in time, in coming unto a knowledge of the truth. These people of Israel were already eternally saved (delivered) and were going about trying to establish there own righteousness by their works of the law, as some on this forum are trying to do. Christ's faith is what justified us eternally (Gal 2:16). Our faith in Jesus justifies us in matters here on earth, but not eternally. The natural man cannot hear and discern the word of God. Only God's sheep hear his voice and he knows them (John 10:27)

If humanizing God includes being friends with Him then count me in. Jesus said that the spirit would be able to teach us the mysteries of God that Jesus started to teach in the testaments. I hope that prayer actually works when you ask God something and expect answers. This creates a dynamic relationship that furthers our understanding of love.

Your system of thought leaves out the leading of the Holy Spirit in the lost man's life. The Holy Spirit can lead a lost man to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through the hearing of the gospel. It's then up to the lost man to respond to the Holy Spirit's calling.

Did you know that the jews dont believe in Jesus, therefore it would be hard for them to be persecuted for Jesus' name sake.
Furthermore, if you claim they get saved after the rapture, then they would no longer be worshiping in the temple, nor following OT laws. They would be christians, no?

If by "lost" you are referring to the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14, he cannot discern what a spiritual gospel is, and I think that I read somewhere that only God's sheep can hear him, and he knows them.