Not By Works

But are we not all slaves to sin before we turn to Christ? And isn't it the Christ which brings us out of this sin? In your religion, is the God which brought Abraham's Children out of Egypt, a different God than the God which brings us out of sin?

Ex. 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Are we not to be Abraham's Children, and heirs to the promise?

Paul was given a revelation from God and taught "ALL" people the truth he was given.

Acts 26:
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (all) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet (worthy) for repentance.

After the Gentiles follow his instructions, are they still Gentiles? Or are they Abraham's Children, Israel, and heirs to the promise?

Is. 56:
6 Also the sons of the stranger, (Gentile) that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

How is Paul teaching any different than Isaiah?

Matt. 3:
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Matt. 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matt. 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Matt. 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time didn't believe they were serving satan, but they were just the same. We know this because they lied about, belittled, ridiculed, and even put on permanent ignore, the people who were trying to warn them.

We know this because they Called the God of the Bible, their God, but transgressed His Commandments by their own religious traditions.

I can see why you defend them so zealously. But for you to say they didn't serve satan, is calling the Christ of the Bible a liar. And my belief that the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time were serving satan is the Truth, as it is written, even in your own Bible.

So we have you, convinced you are already immortal, convinced that God's Laws are against us, and that the Pharisees were trying to "Earn" salvation by following God's Laws.

Then we have the Christ, who says immortality is a gift men do not yet have, who created Laws specifically for you that you deny, who said the Pharisees were trying to enter life by following doctrines they created from the Commandments of men, and not God.

So I am once again forced to choose between you and your friends religion, or the very Word's of the Word which became Flesh.

This truth will offend you just as it offended the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time. You will strike out against me with lies just as they did to the Christ, and to His Apostles. Your actions, and the actions of those who support you, are a mirror of the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time to the point where it is frightening. And the fact that you don't even know what I'm talking about is more proof that the Word of God is true.

I am just going to tell you this one time, you will reject it , as you do all the truth you have been told by posthuman and others, you and your know-it-all-need - no- one-to-teach -me garbage theology, but here you go-

Leviticus 26- v. 40 - 46- God specifically tells Moses about the covenant he made with Jacob, Isaac, Abraham,.

then God states that even though Israel had sinned, broke the covenant , and were not in their land, that He would remember the Covenant he made with their ancestors He brought out of Egypt.

so, unless you can trace your ancestors back to the Red sea crossing, then that Covenant was not made with you.

and, what does verse 46 say? " these are the decrees, laws, regulations that the Lord established at Mt. Sinai between Himself and Israel through Moses.

so, their goes your Abraham had the Torah lie.

specific language here. very specific. of course, you will now lie and spin and defend your religion , but you cannot change the meaning of this Scripture.

good day. good luck. Trinity is truth. oneness is lies. Jesus was fully God and man on earth.

Yes and yes.

Same God and you need to stop confusing religion with a personal relationship with Jesus Christ (John 17:3).

Old Covenant under the Law of Moses. Read it in context Exodus 12:43-50.

Romans 4:13 - For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.

Be sure to read this revelation to Pau from Jesus Christ: Galatians 1:11 - For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Believers understand that the gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Paul also goes on to say in Ephesians 3:1-9:

1 - For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

Those who repent (change their mind) and place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (Acts 11:17,18; 20:21) and by doing so turn to God and works which follow are the fruit of repentance, (Matthew 3:8) but not the essence of repentance and also not the means of our salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9).

Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

This is old covenant, not new covenant. You continue to mix the old and new covenants and the end result is disastrous! - salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."

Stop confusing the old covenant (for Jews under the law of Moses and Gentiles that join themselves to the Lord under the old covenant) with Jew and Gentile believers under the new covenant who are all baptized by one Spirit into one body, so the Gentiles are fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel (1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 3:1-9).

If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (and the law given to the people established that priesthood) why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also (Hebrews 7:11-12).

The law was, in fact, changed when the new covenant was established! That's why Hebrews 4:9 uses the word sabbatismos (Sabbath rest) rather than sabbaton (Sabbath day). *Sabbatismos is only used once in the Bible. *Had the writer of Hebrews desired to emphasize the seventh day for sacred worship, the word sabbaton would have been used. Instead, Hebrews 4:9 describes a daily worship experience that brings us back to the Edenic ideal. Adam and Eve weren't given a particular day for worship. They were given every day for worship. Their Sabbath rest was to be perpetual. It was to be an every day experience of rest in fellowship with their Creator. Thus, Hebrews 4 tells us there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God and here the Sabbath rest is the perpetual rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with Jesus Christ, in contrast to keeping the weekly seventh day Sabbath under the Law.

The change from old covenant to new covenant is much more comprehensive than you had even imagined!

Sorry this is a false statement. Nowhere in the bible does it say that obedience is required for salvation. For example; the obedience of water baptism; confession of the believer; "loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself." All of these acts of love are essential to the life of a believer but they come "after you are saved."

"Faith" and "Salvation" are absolutely essential for a true born again believer and both faith and salvation cannot be earned, they are a gift of God.

Every attribute of love can be said is true of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And Jesus learned obedience through suffering and so will Christians do the same, "after we are saved"

Quote Argueless: "We cannot separate "obedience from salvation" for "THEY ARE WHAT LOVE IS."
We obey our Lord and Savior because He first "Loved us."

Where did you learn these things, are you a Catholic? We are saved by grace through faith, "Not By Works"

Ephesians2:8,9
8) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the "gift of God",9) "not by works", so that no one can boast

Hebrews5:8,9
8) Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9) and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

1Corinthians13:4-8,13
4) Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5) It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6) Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7) It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8) Love never fails.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Thank you Mailmandan, the truth does set us free.....

God bless!

(Post #75,124.
Studyman said;
"After the Gentiles follow his instructions, are they still Gentiles? Or are they Abraham's Children, Israel, and heirs to the promise?"

Mailmandan said;
"Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

How is Paul teaching any different than Isaiah?
This is old covenant, not new covenant. You continue to mix the old and new covenants and the end result is disastrous! - "salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works." "

John 11:25-26
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

believest thou this?
or believest thou not?

can i get a witness?

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Why does HE not want you to invite them into your house, to debate them?

BECAUSE if your neighbor sees you invite them into your house, and he knows you are a good Christian, then he will invite them in, and be deceived.

John spent the entire epistle of 1 John qualifying who those are in 5:13.

There is a major supporting verse that you are SAVED FIRST in the Heart, before you can SHOW IT in your LIFESTLYE, AFTER YOU ARE SAVED. THAT CLEARLY DEFINES what JAMES IS TALKING ABOUT:



James 2:14-18 (HCSB)
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can his faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothes and lacks daily food
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you don’t give them what the body needs, what good is it?
17 In the same way faith, if it doesn’t have works, is dead by itself.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith from my works.

Amen! James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

James 2:14-18 (HCSB)

Click to expand...

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to give evidence to his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

So in James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

I really appreciate the conversation and discussion. I am hoping you might consider what the WORD of GOD says the New Covenant is.

Jer. 31:
33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;"

Ok Dan, here it comes. This is the Same God you just said brought Israel, and us, out of sin. We should listen to Him even it is exposes ancient religious traditions that are not from God, actually, especially if He exposes ancient religious traditions. of man.

"After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

This is the Same God which brought the Children of Israel out of Egypt, the same God which brings us out of sin. He has just told us here that "After those days" He will write HIS LAWS on our hearts.

How were HIS Laws administered "before those days" ?. Were there not Levite priests which we were to go to, to hear HIS LAWS? Before "those Days" was there ANY OTHER WAY to hear the Word of God other than Levite Priests?

These are not trick questions. these Words are not mine but His. I am asking you heart felt valid questions about God's Words.


"34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:"

Who are the "THEY" here? Are these not those folks who the Word which became Flesh has written HIS LAWS on their hearts? And if not, who are they?

"for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

So Dan, After those days this same God with forgive their Lawlessness". How were their sins forgiven "Before these days"?

We they not required to go find a Levite Priest who would perform ceremonial, sacrificial "Works of the Law" for the cleansing of sin, including animal sacrifice and the sprinkling of blood on the alter?

Before those days, was there any other way for sins to be forgiven? Please answer if you can.

So as you can see, the Word of God is not "changing, removing, altering HIS LAWS, even suggesting they are "changed, removed, nothing.

He is only "changing" the way HIS LAWS are administered.

Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

And He is changing the way sins are forgiven.

Heb. 9:
11 But Christ being come an high priest (Not a Levite) of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

So Dan, you are your supporters accuse me all the time of "going back" to the old covenant. But when have I ever suggested a man return to the old way of receiving God's instructions, or the old way of having sins cleansed? Of course this is a falsehood.

So given this clear description of God's New Covenant, how is "Ex. 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Is this why the Christ, that brought Israel and us out of sin said the following?

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (Write them on the hearts of His People)
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

How is this not Biblically sound.

Matthew 7:15 (NASB)
15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

Acts 20:29-31 (NASB)
29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
31 "Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.

1 Timothy 1:18-20 (NASB)
18 This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight,
19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.


You have to warn the FLOCK, not to listen to those with FALSE TEACHINGS, just like PAUL DID.

As long as I believe on the Word of God which became Flesh, according to His definition of "Believe" then yes, I shall die, but I have faith that He will raise me from the dead and give me the gift of immortality, a gift I do not yet have.

Rom. 11:
20 Well; because of unbelief (Disobedience) they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Matt.7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Lawlessness)

He said we are to "live by EVERY WORD of God". That would include these scriptures as well, yes? What if don't believe these Words?

Shall I be saved anyway in your religion?

I'm really getting tired of responding to your long winded rants (full of scripture twisting, Hebrew Roots propaganda and rhetoric) only to have what I say (especially about the gospel) fall on deaf ears. So what is your ultimate goal in your continued long winded rants and obsession with the law? What is your ultimate goal in making continued false accusations about believers who disagree with you of holding to ancient religious traditions?

Are you ultimately trying to say that those of us who disagree with your perverted gospel are following ancient religious traditions and won't be saved (for lack of properly obeying the law), but you are properly obeying the law and will be saved based on that? Why do you continually obsess over the law/10 commandments (with a heavy emphasis on obsessing over the 4th commandment in SDA fashion)? What is your angle? What do YOU believe the gospel IS and what do YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel? (Romans 1:16)

Also, do you believe that the Church is under the old covenant, the new covenant, a combination of both or neither covenant?

In a nutshell it's all about WORKS SALVATION with you. Hebrew Roots smoke and mirrors.

How Can you get so much Right, and then go SO TOTALLY WRONG DURING THIS STATEMENT.

SALVATION has NEVER BEEN PART OF OBEDIENCE!

OBEDIENCE IS PART OF THE LOVE THAT GOD POURED INTO OUR HEARTS, AT THE MOMENT THE HOLY SPIRIT CAME INTO OUR HEARTS.

Romans 5:1-10 (NASB)
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.


WE WERE SAVED BEFORE WE EVER DID ANY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, WHILE WE WERE STILL ENEMIES OF GOD.

NOTICE IN VERSE 5 above, GOD's LOVE was poured into our HEARTS (Human Spirit), and then that LOVE IN US SPAWNS THE SAME KIND OF LOVE TOWARDS GOD AND THE BRETHREN. SEE IT, it is PART OF GOD's LOVE that was Poured into our HEARTS.

Read 1 John 3:14-19, it will explain it to you that OBEDIENCE is PART OF THE LOVE GOD POURED INTO OUR HEARTS.

1 John 3:17 (HCSB)
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋
—how can God’s love reside in him?

1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
3 For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,


OBEDIENCE IS PART OF LOVE, and that LOVE CAME FROM GOD!

What things were written that John is speaking about so that we may believe?

1 John 5:
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Matt. 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Lawlessness)

There are folks who believe they are "Saved" that are not. This is a undeniable Biblical Fact. They believe in a "Christ", just not the one taught in the Bible.

No Dan, it's about the religions and religious traditions and doctrines of the world which you promote VS. What the Word of God which became Flesh, actually teaches.

As the scriptures clearly demonstrate.