Does God love all mankind and does He wish to save everyone

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preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#602
Dec 28, 2016
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#602
ForestGreenCook said:
I think you may be taking 2 Pet 3:9 out of context. To find out who Peter is talking to we have to go back to 2 Pet 1:1 - To them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Peter is reminding them, when they sin to come to repentance so they might not "perish" (be separated from their fellowship with God) Peter even includes himself in his warning to those of like precious faith by using the word "us-ward". Ps 53:2-3 - God saw by his foreknowledge that non would seek him and that none was good, no, not one. That is because all mankind is born into this world spiritually dead. That is why God choose an elect people before the foundation of the world ( Eph 1:4) and that is why he had Jesus to cleanse them of their sins on the cross, (John 6:39) and that is why he had to regenerate them and give them the indwelling of the Holy Spirit,(Eph 2, especially verse 5), so that he would have someone to praise and worship him. Believing, repenting, confessing, accepting etc. comes after regeneration and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I believe the scriptures teach that God did indeed give man the freedom to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, but his eternal salvation is by the grace of God, without the help of mans choice and that salvation took place on the cross.
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Although Peter is speaking of the elect in 3:9 your usage is off base. Contextually it is showing God in time being patient for the harvest of all his elect. Thus the seeming "delay" of Christ. Verse 10 continues this context showing your error.
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
#603
Sep 28, 2015
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#603
ForestGreenCook said:
I think that you can get a better understanding of 2 Pet 3:9 by reading my post #598.
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I am not sure what you disagreed with unless it was my entire post!! wow. Maybe can can agree that Peter did write that to believers. As were all the letters from all the writers in the grace covenant,
but that does not matter, we are not in agreement on the the TULIP so doubt we could come to other agreements.
 
Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Banned
#604
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
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#604
reneweddaybyday said:

I have told you numerous times that I believe the natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14 refers to believers who were carnal.
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14-16 The unspiritual self, just as it is by nature, can’t receive the gifts of God’s Spirit. There’s no capacity for them. They seem like so much silliness. Spirit can be known only by spirit—God’s Spirit and our spirits in open communion. Spiritually alive, we have access to everything God’s Spirit is doing, and can’t be judged by unspiritual critics. Isaiah’s question, “Is there anyone around who knows God’s Spirit, anyone who knows what he is doing?” has been answered: Christ knows, and we have Christ’s Spirit.(MSG)

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of Godbut considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.(NIV)

But [a]a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually [b]appraised.(NASB) Footnote (or unspiritual)

But the person without the Spirit[a] does not receive what comes from God’s Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated[b]spiritually.(CSB) Footnote (or natural person)

A person who isn’t spiritual doesn’t accept the things of God’s Spirit, for they are nonsense to him. He can’t understand them because they are spiritually evaluated.(ISV)

But people who aren’t spiritual[a] can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means.(NLT) Footnote (Or who don’t have the Spirit; or who have only physical life.)

Nowhere does it say the natural man is a saved carnal person, my friend, but one who does not have the Spirit of God residing in them.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#606
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#606
preacher4truth said:
Although Peter is speaking of the elect in 3:9 your usage is off base. Contextually it is showing God in time being patient for the harvest of all his elect. Thus the seeming "delay" of Christ. Verse 10 continues this context showing your error.
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Maybe I am understanding you wrong. Are you saying when a regenerated child of God sins and he dies before he repents, that he loses his eternal salvation?
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
#608
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
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#608
UnderGrace said:
Well then how does this fit in^^^^^^^

I thought all believers persevered?
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they do, believers do not perish
the P in the 5 points of the TULIP says perseverance of the saints, meaning once saved always saved
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
#609
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
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#609
UnderGrace said:
Well then how does this fit in^^^^^^^

I thought all believers persevered?
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You posted a quote that was not mine but was included in your post to me that indicated that I said believers perish.
VERY wrong of you.... did you do that on purpose??
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#610
#610
GraceAndTruth said:
God does not want anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance. 2 Pet 3:9

That is a misquote. 2 Peter 3:9 says God is patient towards YOU, now wishing any to perish but all to come to repentance.
Peter's letter is to BELIEVERS who have tolerated false teachers and prophets, mockers etc (chapters 2 & 3), and God wishes those believers to come to repentance so they will not perish in their apostasy. True beleivers will repent and turn from that evil but those believers who do not and continue down the broad road will perish.

Yes, some 'believers' do perish
Matthew 7:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Therer is not one book in the New Testament that is not addressed to believers specifically.
Study with the Hermeneutic method, & use CONTEXT.
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Well this is your post and I quoted the one line from your post.:unsure:
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#611
#611
GraceAndTruth said:
You posted a quote that was not mine but was included in your post to me that indicated that I said believers perish.
VERY wrong of you.... did you do that on purpose??
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LOL....on purpose, seriously I have better things to do with my time, I have given up up on persuading Calvinists they are wrong, even how they view the assurance of salvation is not in line with scripture.

So maybe you can clarify what you wrote in this post because it does not jive with "perseverance of the saints?"
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#613
Jul 8, 2018
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#613
reneweddaybyday said:
I do not agree with your assessment of the verse. Paul was addressing the problems within the believers in the church at Corinth. Paul was not addressing the unbeliever. There was no need to make a statement that the unbeliever cannot comprehend spiritual matters. No one, not even the unbeliever, needs instruction concerning this issue.

However, there was (and still is) a need to understand that the believer who lives according to the "lower aspect of humanity, i.e. behavior that is more of earth (carnality) than heaven" is limited in his/her ability to understand spiritual matters.

The same situation still occurs in our churches to this day. We have believers who never mature to full adulthood in Christ even though they have been born again for years (and in some cases decades). And these carnal believers must feed on the milk of the word.

We need to get past this stage in our spiritual maturation in Christ so that we are no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive (Eph 4:14).
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The natural man does not become "IN CHRIST" until he is regenerated (Eph 2:5).
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#614
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#614
GraceAndTruth said:
I am not sure what you disagreed with unless it was my entire post!! wow. Maybe can can agree that Peter did write that to believers. As were all the letters from all the writers in the grace covenant,
but that does not matter, we are not in agreement on the the TULIP so doubt we could come to other agreements.
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Refresh my memory. What do we disagree on?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#617
Jan 13, 2016
17,152
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#617
ForestGreenCook said:
scripture reference please.
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Who were those in Abraham's bosom? If one could be regenerated in the OT, why was the death and shed blood of Christ necessary?

Who are those referred to in Ephesians 4 when Christ led those in captivity free when He descended into the lower parts of the earth?
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#619
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#619
GraceAndTruth said:
God does not want anyone to perish, but all to come to repentance. 2 Pet 3:9

That is a misquote. 2 Peter 3:9 says God is patient towards YOU, now wishing any to perish but all to come to repentance.
Peter's letter is to BELIEVERS who have tolerated false teachers and prophets, mockers etc (chapters 2 & 3), and God wishes those believers to come to repentance so they will not perish in their apostasy. True beleivers will repent and turn from that evil but those believers who do not and continue down the broad road will perish.

Yes, some 'believers' do perish
Matthew 7:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Therer is not one book in the New Testament that is not addressed to believers specifically.
Study with the Hermeneutic method, & use CONTEXT.
Click to expand...
In Matt 7:23 he says "I never knew you" and that would, to me, mean that they were not believers. Those in John 6:39 were all believers and none of them will ever perish (go to hell) because he will raise all of them up at the last day. So, these in 2 Pet 3:9 who had like precious faith could lose their fellowship with God (perish) but not lose their life in hell.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#620
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#620
John146 said:
Who were those in Abraham's bosom? If one could be regenerated in the OT, why was the death and shed blood of Christ necessary?

Who are those referred to in Ephesians 4 when Christ led those in captivity free when He descended into the lower parts of the earth?
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The effectiveness of Christ's blood on the cross for the elect flows backwards to the first elect man as well as forward to the last elect man. All mankind were captives at one time.
 
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