Did God Ordain This?

I have read on a couple of Threads here that nothing happens in this world without God having ordained it. I do not believe that. I believe the Scripture being used is being misunderstood. But that is my opinion. So I decided to give it some thought and see what others believe.

First, Scripture

Jesus said:

Luke 17:2) It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. (punishment for harming a child)

Matthew 19:13) Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14) But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15) And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence

Matthew 18:10) Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

(and, again)

Matthew 18:1) At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2) And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3) And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4) Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5) And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6) But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Now, it may just be me, but I'm fairly certain that Christ (God the Son) has great love for little children, and will dole out severe punishment to anyone who harms one of them.

CONSIDER THIS:

(excerpt)

Authorities say a Colorado man has been arrested on three counts of 1st degree murder and three counts of tampering with physical evidence in connection with the disappearance of his pregnant wife and their two young children.

The search for Shanann Watts, 34, and her daughters Bella, 4, and Celeste, 3, made national headlines this week after her husband, Chris Watts, pleaded for his family's safe return in a interview broadcast on KUSA.

The Frederick Police Department said late Wednesday that they had taken Chris Watts into custody. According to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, the mother and her two daughters were killed on Monday.

(found here)

Colorado Man Arrested For Murder of Wife and Two Kids ...

SO, MY QUESTION IS:

DO YOU BELIEVE GOD ORDAINED THE MURDER OF THIS WOMAN AND HER TWO CHILDREN?

FYI:

Your vote will be private.......that is, no one will know how you voted. The vote itself will be tallied to the total of the Poll

yup.........its your OPINION.

The "God loves everybody" doctrine is not only a fallacy but easily proven from scripture that God does NOT love everybody.

A Creator without a plan for His creation? The CROSS was predestined!! Acts 2: 22-23

God put it in their hearts to execute HIS will........Rev 17:17
Also, God put it in PHaroh's heart to NOT let the people go.
Also God can turn the heart of the king wherever He chooses
And God hated Esau in the womb before he could do any right or wrong Micah 1
..........and tho Esau sought for repentance with tears it was not given to him Heb 12:17

Bad things happen to good people just as good things happen to bad people.........we live in a fallen word with a bunch of fallen folks who have no hearts, brains or morals and are as described in Mark 7: 22-23
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, [a]fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries
22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, [a]envy, slander, [b]pride and foolishness.
23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

p_rehbein,

This is a interesting post.
It's good to think about these things.

I think we can view the word "ordain" in slightly different ways.
I think even for someone not given to Calvinism, we're still left with some conundrums here.

A. God is omniscient.
B. If God is omniscient, he has knowledge of all things present, and foreknowledge of all things future.
C. If God has foreknowledge of all future things, then he has knowledge of specific future things, like murders.
D. If God has foreknowledge of a murder, he also has ability to stop it, in some way, as he also has ALL POWER.
E. If God has foreknowledge of a murder, and he has all power to stop it, and he does not... then he has allowed it.
F. If God allows a thing to occur, this does not mean he CAUSED it, but it does mean he ALLOWED it.
G. If God is ALL GOOD, and he ALLOWS a thing which seems bad to us, he will only do this if he has a just and good reason....
not because he owes us a just and good reason, but because he can ONLY DO WHAT IS JUST AND GOOD.
H. Because we do NOT UNDERSTAND the just and good reason... this does not mean there IS NO JUST AND GOOD REASON..
I. This is one way to view what we call "providence", or God "ordaining" events.

This is how I view God's providence.

I am not a Calvinist, but I do not believe events just randomly occur which are beyond the purview of God.

I guess I would be an Arminian with a strong view of God's sovereignty.
I think that just means everyone disagrees with me about something.


God Bless.

...




...

I see a conflict here because I paid attention to this case and discovered/figured out several interesting components . I see that God allowed this to happen but circumstances point to missing obvious clues. There are several women in that particular state who discovered they have no idea whom they are married to, even after 30 years. Yes, I agree it sounds impossible to not actually know the person you built your dreams with and raised children together, but in reality it happens more often than people generally understand.

To actually explain this we must use science, because this is not demon possession or anything to do spiritually. This is about the mental state of certain human beings. What is ironic, these people, although suffering from psychological disorders, are not psychotic. But they do possess psychopathic traits, it's a part of their biological malfunction dealing with their brain that doesn't transmit information from one side of the brain to the other side. The nerve endings look like they have been disconnected when examined during brain scans. Basically, these people are like chameleons. Common sense does not register and how they learn to act normal is by watching the behavior patterns of others. Like people with Asperger's, which is a form of autism. These people are clueless but typically have a special gift like the ability to understand higher mathematics and science formulas. When a joke is told they don't literally get it. While others are laughing, these individuals are trying to figure the joke out from a logical perspective. But they notice others laughing at the joke. So next time a joke is told, they just pretend laugh not even understanding why they are laughing. But they become good enough at mimicking, normal people miss the fact these people are not on the same mental wavelength. And you think you know them and marry to find out 20 years down the road you have no idea who this person really is.

But the guy who murdered his pregnant wife and 2 daughters, he did not suffer from a form of autism. Ah no, he was straight up a "Narcissist." And Narcissism is a definite form of Psychological Disorder. He was no different than a guy working a job 10 years then one day goes postal and kills his fellow employees.

This poor woman had no idea how dangerous this man truthfully was. She was fooled by his mimicking pretending to be a normal human being. He slaughtered his family and then got on the news asking for help to find them. He even went on searches to find them with the authorities. He was getting a kick out of those who were traumatized by it and those who suffered tremendously by it. He could have just as easily murdered the family and then tossed a t.v. dinner into the microwave and eat in front of the dead bodies like nothing ever happened. Youtube has great explanations of Narcissistic people, and they all warn anyone with a narcissist to get away a.s.a.p. They are like a hand grenade with the pin pulled but appears to be a dud. All it takes is for someone to get in the way of what the narcissist wants and then it's literally Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hide. And in this particular case, he was cheating on his wife and she decided to leave him. And it all ended up the tragedy as we read.

I absolutely believe this woman did not have the gift of discernment. She had no clue he was a mimicking chameleon in the form of a narcissist. Obviously, had this woman or any woman with a hint at something is not right about this person, they definitely would run away, not end up married with someone they will never know.

In my opinion, there probably was warning signs in the beginning (God trying to help this woman). But they were not red lights flashing because this man was good at pretending to be someone he never was capable of being. And in the end, her wrong choice cost her her life and the lives of her 2 precious daughters.

Hey! p-rehbein... PTL!

Jam 1: 13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, and neither tempteth he any man: but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bring forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

1 Cor 10: 13 "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape that ye may be able to bear it."

The Lord not only does not ordain us to do sin, but he will not even tempt us to do so! In fact, when we are tempted of our own lusts; the Lord makes a way for us to escape that temptation, that be may be able to bear it. That's not something the Lord would do if we were foreordained to sin. And if we are not pre-ordained to sin, then one must ask; What are we foreordained to do? Perhaps, its that those who are of the faith are predestined to be conformed to the image his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Which Paul refers to in, Gal 4: 19 "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you."

Maranatha!

You and your opinions. For goodness' sake, next you will say we should not all be robots...…..tic

God allows freewill- without which no one could sin, but it's not God's Will for people to sin, it's His Will for them to choose to do right. No, God does not ordain murder, He flooded the whole world to rid it of violent evil people.

Back to the serious side, yes P you are absolutely on top of things here I believe because if all were such as you have so well described there would be no need for this ordeal in the first place.....

Morning Brother........

Some say God is not bound by anything, I disagree. The one thing that is relevant in this case is His word. God is faithful to do what He says He will do in my opinion, and I believe He binds Himself to do what He says He will do. Nothing binds Him, but He can bind Himself. That is relevant in this case because God gave all mankind the gift of Free Will. Because of this, man has the will to choose between doing good or doing evil things. Even if a person has some mental defect that would cause them to do some evil thing, God knows that too. I do not pretend to understand why God does the things He does. Like you, I believe we have to trust in Him that when something like this happens, He will make something good come from it.

A friend once told me that the only way we could begin to understand things such as this is if we had the ability to see into the future lives of this woman and the children, and see what would have happened to/with them had this event not taken place. I guess that makes some sense, and who knows? God knows.

Some will say that there is no difference between God ordaining such an event as this (predestination) and allowing it (free will) in such a case as this, but I disagree. Why? Because of what you said in "H" God is surely a JUST God. He cannot take the gift of free will away from one who will do harm and not take it away from one who will do good. And, He can not give it to one who will do good, and not give it to one who will do harm. He causes it to rain on the just and the unjust.

To believe He ordained/predestined this woman and the children to be murdered is to make God Himself guilty of their murders. God can not do evil.............one thing I know for sure He can not do.

Why then, give man the gift of free will if He knows some will do evil? God so very much (from the beginning) desired a personal relationship with His children. And some will say that only those who accept Christ as Lord and Savior are His children, and they would be correct. The rest are His creations. But, remember, He loved all His creations! Some will say we do not choose God, He chooses us because He (through the Holy Spirit) calls us/draws us to Him, and they would be correct. What they can not say is that God ONLY calls certain people. I believe God calls ALL men, Scripture bears this out in two instances. Those being that God would have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of............and Christ saying Go ye into ALL the world....... In both instances, all men were to be called, and as many as would heed the call, and believe, would become His children. The rest had the right to choose between life and death (spiritual) and they chose death.

This personal relationship God so desired was to have a PEOPLE who CHOSE to love Him, who LONGED for Him and His presence with them. Not a people who had no choice. Consider the Nation of Israel. God chose them to be His people under the First Covenant. And, even then, there were so very many who did not love Him/obey Him/live for Him.

Under the New Covenant, God's people choose Him.......meaning that all who come to Him/answer His call, love Him/obey Him, and long for that personal relationship with Him as He does with them. That relationship is realized with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. When this occurs, God finally has the very real personal relationship He so long for.

This is why I will always believe in the Holy Trinity......and why I say:

God the Father: God OF man who desired a personal relationship with His children

God the Son: God AS man who made it possible for that personal relationship to happen

God the Holy Spirit: God WITHIN man thus fulfilling His earnest desire!

anyway............my thoughts...........not carved in stone

God either causes things to happen on earth..
Or God allows things to happen on earth..

Now God allowing something to happen does not mean God approves of that happening..

Either way Nothing happens on earth without God allowing it to happen or causing it to happen..

I think that has been the thoughts of those who have responded thus far.........

G-d does not cause bad things to happen....He allows things to happen so long as they fit His overall plan.
Satan is the culprit of wrong doings. But, only as G-d allows.This is validated by the book of Job.

Looking around this tired old world, seeing the decay brought on by man, we see tht God has allowed mankind to destroy and ruin in greater increments as His Day approaches.

He knew man without Him in mind would endeabor to do such, but He is not forcing man to do it.

One thing to remember though, in my opinion, is that for all the hoopla over it, man will not destroy the earth. God has reserved that right for Himself. That's how I read Scripture

2 Peter 3:
1) This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2) That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So, take heart, man may cause, and surely has caused serious harm to the earth, but it will be God that destroys it!

I have said this for decades...…...hard as he may try, man will never be allowed to stop or start the end of this age, that is god's work.

Yes, but the question was die He ordain it? Did He, from the beginning, breath life into this woman and twp children for the purpose of their being murdered? It's actually a legit question. There has been debate about this since, well, since the Church began I suspect. It is in regards to predestination.

And, to be clear, it is not in regards to Calvin. I believe, and others here also believe, that a person can believe in predestination without subscribing to all the teachings of Calvin.

So that everyone knows, the article in question is from AUGUST 2018.

God's mercies and love embrace dear Shanann Watts, and her daughters Bella, and Celeste, and their unborn sibling to peace. May his strength continue to surround those who mourn, and may the life sentence Chris Watts receive be for the greatest Good through God's will. Amen.