Speaking in tongues

You may recall that I have asked several question, and gauging the possible answers to "true" and "false" to limit the ambivalence and obfuscation.
Seeing as I failed to obtain a cogent and straightforward response from you thus far, please consider my assertion to be relevant to all future questions.

Of course, that is your opinion, which is not superior to my opinion. Also, I would never use the word prophet in context to them. Would you say they are not saved too? Why don't you Condemn them to hell to while your at it. Being in error is not a like assessment of the video. Clearly you follow them more then I do.

God speaks to His children. It has nothing to do with "a missing law".

You are nothing but a confrontational buffoon. It was my first post and you jumped down ones throat as in some perverted way to what? HAVE ME SUBMIT TO your opinion. I said they are in error, I do not know them nor does one video from when? 10 years ago? or what? I’m suppose to assume this was yesterday? If you are just going to attack people for posting on a thread then know I will not be your whipping post here find some else you self-righteous Pharisees

Well Sir/Madame, Tilton and Copeland show all of the attributes of false prophets. I suggest you conduct an investigation yourself. I did. Their bogus tongues is another drawing card for the unlearned and unwary.

I've seen this argument before. I think it's incorrect because Scripture specifies that these "abilities" are gifts of the Holy Spirit. What you describe are simply innate (born-with) abilities. While I agree that such are also God-given, I think a distinction must be made between gifts given to believers in Christ (after salvation) and those given generally. The examples in Acts of Holy Spirit-empowered tongue-speaking (chapters 10 and 19) are not examples of innate linguistic facility. Either all such gifts are innate, and therefore not specific to Christians (as non-Christians can be medical doctors, polyglots, "spiritually sensitive", etc.), or there is a distinction, and they are specific to Christians.

Its how we try the spirits to see if they are of God not seen or men seen . If any man say I have seen the Lord, heard audible voice, or had a dream as a personal experience we are to believe not.He warned us before hand.

Every new claim of a new of prophet bringing new revelations...…. he proves himself to be a false prophets that brings false prophecy.(no new prophecy)

There we go! Somebody...anybody post some audio/video of a different language unknown to the speaker uttered in miraculous fashion, I will pay the cost of a polygraph test and get it on the record that this incident is legit. We get a sample of half a dozen or a dozen and all the tests come out positive.....and we are good to go. Then comes the important part. TESTIFYING to these miracles to one and all. God has visisted us with signs and miracles.

Acts 10 and 19 describe real, rational language - (apologies for length)

With respect to Peter and Cornelius, I’m going to paraphrase (and in a few places quote) here and there, from the book “Tongues Revisited – a Third Way” in which the author devotes a section which addresses just this subject.

We have to put this into a bit of quick historical perspective from what we know about Roman soldiers. Given that Cornelius commanded a unit known as the “Italian Regiment”, one may surmise that he was from Italy (Latin, “Italia”) and that his native language was likely Latin. He was in Caesarea with his “household”. A Roman soldier’s ‘household’ would have included not only relatives, but fellow soldiers and slaves as well.

Let’s examine this for a moment as it plays an important role with respect to ‘tongues’.

His relatives, like Cornelius, would have presumably spoken Latin. Fellow soldiers also spoke Latin, but as Roman soldiers it’s important to note that they could have come from just about anywhere in the Empire. Likewise, and especially, his slaves.

In short, though the soldiers in his command spoke Latin, it may not at all have been their native language(s). His slaves almost certainly not – though they spoke and understood some Latin, it’s very unlikely that they would have been native Latin speakers. Like the soldiers, their native language(s) could have come from anywhere in the Roman Empire.

So, in Cornelius’ household, we essentially have several people who comprised a multi-lingual group. We must also surmise that most of this company also spoke Greek in varying degrees. The passage is silent as to what language Peter and his group, and Cornelius and his group, conversed in; but, as was the practice in the day when speakers of two different languages tried to communicate with each other, the common language of choice was Greek (just as it would be English in today’s world).

Since the narrative reports no communication difficulty, I think it safe to assume that the common language in this scenario would have been Greek. Peter may have known a few words and phrases in Latin (from the Roman occupation of his homeland), but it’s very unlikely he spoke it. Also unlikely is that Cornelius spoke Aramaic with any degree of fluency.

From the narrative, we know that the incident is reported from the perspective of Peter and his group. “They (Peter and his company) heard them speaking in languages (“tongues”) and praising God”.

From this, we can deduce two types of speech here: (1) speech that Peter and his group understood, and (2) speech they did not understand.

Considering Peter and his company report in the narrative that they knew that some of what was said were praises to God, it must have been said in a language they knew (likely Greek, but possibly some recognized Latin). Some of what was said however, they did not understand because it was foreign to them. Peter and his company did not speak, nor apparently recognize, those languages.

To quote from the aforementioned book – “Is praise of God, that is, saying in some way how marvelous God is, evidence for the presence of the Holy Spirit? If backed up by a true understanding of and commitment to God and his work, then I would say it is indeed an indication of the residence in that person of the Holy Spirit. It is to be expected that a new believer will praise the Lord in some way, and these people had just minutes previously become believers in Christ! Cornelius and his family were devout and God-fearing (Acts 10:2, 22). They had accepted the revelation of God that they knew of up to that point, but they were not saved (Acts 11:14). They had become Jewish proselytes, Gentiles who had adopted the faith of the Jews. This was in spite of the disdain in which they were held by ethnic Jews (Acts 10:28) even while they were respected by them (Acts 10:22).”

The likely scenario was that Peter and his company entered Cornelius’s house and Peter addressed the gathered group, telling them about Jesus, his life, resurrection, etc. Cornelius and his company responded to what they heard as a reaffirmation of what they already believed. Reacting joyously, some of them addressed the Lord directly in their mother-tongue; languages Peter and his company did not know or speak, or turned to their companions and discussed these tremendous things with them (again in languages unknown to Peter and his companions). Considering the soldiers, and especially the slaves, could have come from anywhere in the Empire – any number of languages are possible here.

To quote directly again - “Some of them, perhaps for the benefit of Peter and his friends, addressed the Lord, or talked among themselves in their shared language (likely, Greek). They were filled with the wonder and joy of having received 'life through repentance' (Acts 11:18). It was very evident to Peter and the others that here were truly converted people. It is so reminiscent of Acts 2; the multilingual situation and the praise of the wonders of God, though in this case it was from newly converted people. Another difference also was that here there were no cultural 'high language/low language' conventions to break. These people were simply thrilled that they were saved and told the Lord so. This is quite sufficient to have prompted Peter's comment, "The Holy Spirit came on them as he came on us at the beginning." “

So, no modern tongues-speech here, just plain old real languages. Languages Peter and his friends apparently did not know or recognize. Cornelius and his company were among the non-Jews; as such, any native language(s) they spoke, including Latin itself, would have been considered a “tongue” (read “language”).

Turning to Paul in Ephesus - The passage simply states that while in Ephesus, Paul found “some/certain disciples”. The text does not offer much more about these people nor does it mention their nationality as, frankly, it’s not really relevant to the story. The natural assumption most make is that they were natives of Ephesus and thus, native speakers of Greek, but…they may not have been.

Ephesus boasted the Temple of Artemis; considered to be one of the seven wonders of the ancient world. Ephesus had also served as a crossroads between East and West for centuries. In short, like Corinth, it was a cultural and linguistic melting pot. It’s quite possible, and given what happened based on the narrative, quite probable, that these individuals were not native Ephesians; thus, not native speakers of Greek.

We are not told what their native language was. It appears however, that both these people and Paul conversed in the ‘common language’ (dare I say “tongue”) of the day: Greek.

When Paul baptized them, they may have simply been, out of joy one may assume, expressing themselves in their native language; one that Paul was obviously not familiar with. The fact that they began speaking in a language unknown to Paul, and was reported in the narrative, further lends to the idea that these disciples were not native Ephesians.

When a bi-lingual or multi-lingual speaker utters something suddenly/spur of the moment in an emotional outburst (not to be taken with any negative connotations), the speaker will always revert to their native language. That’s just known fact. It seems, that is what happened here.

I don’t see the Cornelius or Ephesus incidents as being problematic with respect to real language, nor do I see modern tongues-speech, or anything really 'miraculous' for that matter. As with 1 Cor. 14:2, the speakers were speaking in their native languages, languages that, at that particular point in time, were known only to God since those listening/hearing did not speak them. Even though they may have been praying/praising by the leading of the H/S (i.e."praying in the Spirit"), to Peter and Paul & company, they were uttering 'mysteries'.

So to your point - I don't hold that such gifts are specific to Christians; the context in how they are used however, is what defines them as "spiritual gifts".

Where does it say that? Certainly not in 1 John 4, wherein we are instructed how to test the spirits. Nor in Deuteronomy 13 wherein Israel is instructed how to identify false prophets.


Has any contributor to this thread made such a claim? Anywhere? No. Why do you continually argue against assertions that NOBODY has made?

Well Sir/Madame, Tilton and Copeland show all of the attributes of false prophets. I suggest you conduct an investigation yourself. I did. Their bogus tongues is another drawing card for the unlearned and unwary.

Signs as lying wonders called miracles?

What is meant by God has visited us with signs and miracles? He informs us it an evil generation as natural converted man that does seek after them and informs us the last one given which has been fulfilled is the sigh of Jonas.

What does the sign of tongues confirm? Once we can find that out then we can test for positive or negative. Blessing or curse

this is one of the most hateful threads I have seen so far those who attack people who are not overly condeming of those in error when the Word of God says leave them alone after you have tried to correct them.

I don't think God will be sending servants again, the word of God came in the form of the son, we either listen to Him or be judged.

When it comes to something spoken, there are no Biblical reference to “tongues” that do not refer to, and cannot be explained in light of, real rational language(s). Biblical ‘tongues’ are nothing more than real, rational languages.

Conversely, there is nothing tongues-speakers are producing that cannot be explained in natural/linguistic terms.

As you may know, there is actually only one place in the entire NT where the term “spiritual gifts” is used (Romans 1:11). After Paul uses the term, he then goes on to define it in verse 12: “that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other’s faith.” Not much there to support some sort of supernatural extraordinary meaning for the term. The meaning of “spiritual gift”, as Paul uses it, is pretty straightforward.

The only difference between what you’re doing and what I’m doing is the _’experience’_ - You’re producing this in conjunction with a religious ‘experience’; I am not. Therefore, your views/beliefs on what you’re doing are going to be totally different from mine, even though linguistically, we’re both producing the exact same thing.

Where does it say that? Certainly not in 1 John 4, wherein we are instructed how to test the spirits. Nor in Deuteronomy 13 wherein Israel is instructed how to identify false prophets..

you should know that is not the only verse about signs and wonders. I love how those against the gifts of the Holy Spirit and to those who seek after them use this verse to suggest they are evil for doing so. Yet Jesus said too Mark 16:17 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Mark 16:20

And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

We partially agree.
I think the term spiritual "gifts" is a misnomer. They are manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 14:2
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.