Not By Works

Glad to see you admit you still sin.

Is the purpose of your suffering/obedience in any way related to the retention of salvation?

If one becomes born again, yet chooses not to serve the Lord very much, or at all, is that person just as saved as you are?

Does one become perfect at the moment of salvation, or does one have to "work" for that perfection?

Do you agree that salvation is a gift from God with no strings attached?

It is literal, for we are part of the Body of Christ; the Temple of GOD.
We in Him, HE in us that the World might believe. For it is GOD that works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure. HE doeth the work. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For if we live after the flesh, we shall die (condemnation) : but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, we shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


Which has all become rather subjective. Many claim to be in but are without. By their fruits they shall be known.

How often do you sin?

Those are the unsaved. Christians are not appointed to wrath. (1 Thessalonians 5:9)

dc's thoughts on this thread summed up here:

That's the issue, emphasis on "the." They are always taking texts speaking of the lost and misapplying them to the "formerly saved."

Will they ever learn to rightly handle God's Word?

Good morning, ladies and gents..

So when Jesus is warning His disciples, He is actually talking to the disobedient UNSAVED people? Christians can be disobedient and there is no consequences? Because "not appointed to wrath"?.

Sounds great. BRB fornicating.

Seriously... how is this not straight up from Jude 1:4??? turning grace of God to lasciviousness

PLEASE go back to perseverence of the saints and stop this weird modern OSAS preaching. Its so unscriptural

Argueless continues to confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture and the result is children of God being appointed to wrath. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 - For God did not appoint us (believers) to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

These types of texts are full of grace for God's elect. It is the plea of God's grace and mercy. How many are there who are not in church, deceived, think they got saved by some prayer long ago, because "they went forward," because "they decided" only to come under deep conviction of their lost state, then called to true repentance, faith and conversion?

We are praying for some of these we know now.

There could be and most likely are among the truly converted those who are his in an unrepentant state, deceived, under wrath, unconverted. God's will in this is seen in 2 Peter 3:9. This warning is God's calling.

One of the biggest issues with once saved always saved is that the supposed saved has made themselves judge. There is only ONE JUDGE.

What we have to go on is fruits. Christ or un-Christ like actions. By their fruits they shall be known but that does not give us judgement beyond that. Their final destination; Life or Death.

="Budman, post: 3799447, member: 190749"]Glad to see you admit you still sin.


So then you aren't going to show even the smallest amount of common courtesy and answer any question I have asked. Discuss any scripture or the context used. You just keep moving the bar to the next, and the next and the next.

I have learned this is the way of many who come in Jesus name on this forum. It seems they ask questions, not for the purpose of Biblical discussion, or seeking to better understand the Word of God, rather, as a trap or a snare.

This is a very common tactic among religious men whose religious traditions can not be supported with scripture. Since they practice lawlessness, they work to prove that everyone else also practices lawlessness, thereby justifying themselves in their own eyes. Exactly the same thing the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time did to Jesus when He brought many of their religious traditions which transgressed the Commandments of God into question. The similarity is stunning.

Nevertheless, even though Jesus knew they were just trying to snare or entangle Him in His Words so they could use them against Him. He still answered the question. And He is the Author of my Faith. So to your questions.


2 Cor. 7:
9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Phil. 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

2 Cor. 1:5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

Phil. 3:
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, (sins cleansed by the blood of goats) but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Heb. 2:
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

James 5:
10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

1 Peter 4:
12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

The Word of God is clear. If we are not partaking in the suffering of Christ who learned obedience from the things He suffered, then we are not partakers of His Salvation. You might think you are, some "voice" may have convinced you that you are, as Eve was convinced. But according to the inspired Word of the Christ of the Bible, who created His Salvation, you are not.

Therefore He teaches:

2 Tim. 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

I think you are confusing religious doctrines of the land with what the Bible actually teaches. Please consider the following inspired Word's of the Christ.

1 Peter 1:
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; (Mainstream Religions)
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, (Peter's Brethren) see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.


So a man who doesn't "Serve the Lord very much" is not born again. He may "believe" he is, some religious franchise might convince him he is. But a man who truly believes in the "Word of God" will separate himself unto it. Submit Himself to it, humble Himself to it.
Not of "corruptible seed" like man made religious doctrines and traditions of the land, but they will be renewed in their minds to "Live by" as Jesus instructed, EVERY WORD of God. And God will write His Laws on their heart. You will know who they are by their works. And you will hate them.

At least this is what the Christ of the Bible teaches.

you do realize i'm still waiting on the Matthew 17 thing, the circumcision thing, the parable of the wedding guests thing, the new moon thing, the Romans 6-7 thing, the context of your *only* citation about mercy thing, the dozen other passages i put concerning mercy thing, etc...

1 Cor. 3:
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

2 Cor. 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Eph. 4:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:


Ph. 3:
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

1 Thess. 3:
12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Heb. 12:
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb. 13:
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

James 1:
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; (sufferings of Christ)
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

1 Peter 5:
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

1 John 2:
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (suffer with Him)


I don't think there can be any question what the Bible teaches. That those who "put their hands to the plow" are on a journey. "Strangers in a foreign land". That we are on a "PATH" which leads to life that we "Walk in". That we are in a race. And that those who "endure to the end" shall receive a Promise from God that He gave to Abraham and his children. That we are "Growing" in the Lord, unto the perfect man.

But there is also another "path", a great broad path, that "many" who call Him Lord, Lord are on. In this path men are not made perfect, Jesus is perfect for them. Men don't walk in the path, Jesus walks for them. Men don't suffer with the Christ, or Labor together with Him. Christ does all the suffering, and all the labor. Men don't run any race, Jesus runs the race for them, They do stuff in His name and honor Him with their lips, but they practice things Jesus would never, ever do..

Personally, although it is certainly not popular with religious men of the world, I believe in the Christ and His Words. I have Faith that if I let His Word's guide my footsteps, the end with be salvation.

we've all noticed something about you as well

God will chastise His disobedient children, but their salvation is never, ever in jeopardy.

One can certainly abuse grace. You do so every day when you sin - just like me, and everyone else.

A Calvinist. I see now.

Let me ask you, how sure are you that you're one of the chosen? How do you know years from now, you might not turn from Christ?

And if OSAS isn't true, then God lied when He said salvation is a gift that cannot be earned.

He didn't admit to sinning bro.

God already judged. He judged Christ guilty in our place. We have nothing left to pay for. We have been declared not guilty.

Can an unbeliever do the same good works as a believer - and even more so?

Yep.

So your argument is baseless.

Plot twist: You guys took OSAS from calvinism. OOPS

It used to be called perseverence of the saints. Meaning: The true believer will persevere in faith till the end. They got that from the verses that say God is the author and finisher of our faith, and from the "work out your salvation, for it is God who works in you to do the pleasure of His good will" verses. etc.

But the easy-believism crowd came along, who dont like calvinists (ironic) and took their idea and removed repentance so now what is commonly called "OSAS" means repeat this prayer, believe in Jesus, you are in forever now, it doesnt matter what you do.